Hurricane prep - on land vs in water?

[DonScatt]

All,
Now that we’re into hurricane season, we’re rethinking our hurricane plans. We live on the southwest gulf coast of Florida and keep our boat in the Harborage in downtown St. Petersburg. Over the last 2 years we’ve kept the original Jackie Season in our slip with floating docks using doubled oversize lines and came away unscathed, although we didn’t get a direct hit.

This year we upgraded to a new Jackie Season, a Beneteau 50 ST. Because of the larger size we no longer have a slip - we’re now in a side tie, and I’m concerned with the impact of not being able to secure both sides of the boat. I believe the insurance company (we use Novamar).would like the boat hauled and blocked. Does anyone have any experience or statistics on storm damage on land VS on the water? I’m concerned that the insurance company prefers dry storage because it’s
cheaper for them when the boat falls over VS pulling it out of the water, but what I’m personally interested in is protecting the boat. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Don Scattergood
mv Jackie Season
Little Gasparilla Island / St Petersburg, FL

 

[O C Diver]

A great deal depends on how it's blocked and secured on land.
Is it above the highest stormwater?
Is it blocked low to the ground with numerous jackstands with load distributing plates (plywood) underneath or on a concrete slab?
Is it secured with straps and anchors to the ground?

If you look at what River Forest marina (located on the Okeechobee waterway) does, it will be secure, probably much better than being in the water. As the quality of storage on land decreases, the risk of it going over increases. The other option is to explore hurricane rated boat storage buildings in your area. I know there are a couple on the Okeechobee waterway.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

Unless well above the projected storm surge, dry land is not all it is cracked up to be.


Best to have the boat moved away from the eye and dangerous semi circle.

 

[Lucky Chucky]

Captain,

I just went through the whole Hurricane Plan and used the yacht club here in La Paz as a resource since they lived through a bad hurricane in 2016.

They have an excellent website page with imputed links to various articles and resources which thoroughly address your concerns.

Here's the link:

Club Cruceros

Best Wishes,

~Lucky Chucky
mv Ho'okipa

 

[DavidM]

I have been through one hurricane with my boat up on the hard and noted what the hurricane did to my dock which would certainly have resulted in my boat sinking.

In general boats on the hard survive hurricanes much better than in the water. That same hurricane, irene resulted in several boats sunk at the dock but none on the hard were damaged. Yes Sailcraft (in Oriental, NC) personnel had to corral a few floating boats and get them blocked again at the peak of the surge.

Even boats that blow over on the hard fare better than sinking. I have a friend who had is sailboat fall over on the hard during a hurricane in St Martin. His mast got tangled with an adjacent boat and was destroyed, but that was the worst of it.

So find a place where the yard elevation is at least 8' since most boats are blocked up 3' or more to the water line and tie them down. River Forest does that.

Lacking that a floating slip with 12' piles is the next best bet. River Dunes in Oriental survived Irene's 9' surge with no damage, but I think the piles were close to overtopping.


Your side tie is not great, but with lots of fenders and tied well to the dock it should be ok. The real question is how exposed is that tie up. If you have more than a couple hundred yards of fetch on the untied side you may have lots of wave action. Too much waves can break you loose.

David

 

[Group9]

Unless well above the projected storm surge, dry land is not all it is cracked up to be.


Best to have the boat moved away from the eye and dangerous semi circle.

Truth. In Katrina, lots of boatyards had blocked boats float off and away. Wind is annoying and tears away canvas, solar panels, etc. Surge and waves are the boat killers.

 

[psneeld]

Truth. In Katrina, lots of boatyards had blocked boats float off and away. Wind is annoying and tears away canvas, solar panels, etc. Surge and waves are the boat killers.

Often there are no simple answers for simple questions.



Marina location both in water storage and dry storage can be a world of difference. As does hurricane strength.

 

[OldDan1943]

I have heard tell of marinas inciting on all boats on the hard be put into the water. I have not heard of what to do if the boat wont float, they just want it off the hard.

Once your boat is on the hard, make sure the jack stands are chained together.
(maybe an extra jack stand or two, if the marina has the spare jacks.) IMO

 

[OldDan1943]

If you are going to remain in the water, as I do with my boat, double up all lines, back away from the bulkhead, move your tender around to a shelter side of your boat and, in my case, let some water in, to add weight. I try to stay onboard to adjust the lines as necessary. Yes, I was onboard for Irma..... yes, I did adjust the dock lines for the storm surge. Did I have questions about the wisdom in my decision, especially when the wind began to howl and the rain was coming down in buckets. But as I told people, I have lived a long and interesting life so if I die, I die but, if the boat sinks, I'll be pissed. Of course, I said that 'tongue in cheek'. Let it be known, I went down with my ship.

 

[Group9]

Often there are no simple answers for simple questions.



Marina location both in water storage and dry storage can be a world of difference. As does hurricane strength.

Of course there are variables, but surge (and, hurricane spawned tornadoes) cause a lot more damage than straight line winds (until you get really high wind speeds, like 160-165 +) from my personal experience in a very hurricane prone area. And, the size (diameter) can make a huge differnce. Look at how much more damage Irma and Katrina did, than Michael, and Camille, simply because they were much larger (causing them to push a whole lot more water).

And, some areas are definitely more prone to surge than others due to the hydrography, and natural barriers. Miami is never going to get a 32 foot storm surge like Mississippi got in Katrina (or the 22 feet it got in Camille), no matter what the category of the hurricane. What has happened in the past in one particular area, is what will happen there in the future.

And, you’re right, that is what you plan for. Just make sure you know.

 

[psneeld]

My point and I think the insurance companies point too.... you don't want damage...remove your chances of a mild to severe hurricane hit. Moving laterally or vertically is one of the few choices.

 

[Group9]

My point and I think the insurance companies point too.... you don't want damage...remove your chances of a mild to severe hurricane hit. Moving laterally or vertically is one of the few choices.

Being somewhere they ain’t is the only sure plan!

 

[psneeld]

Being somewhere they ain’t is the only sure plan!

My plan for my home, but the insurance guys are worried about my canvas.... makes one wonder...

 

[DavidM]

Actually I like the TideSlide and SlideMoor systems. I have used the SlideMoor and it is very robust, ties tight to the rub rail with a small pad and looks strong enough to deal with hurricane force winds.


You will need tall piles, probably 15' to start with a rub rail height of 3-4' and have 11' of hurricane surge protection. If you can't tie the pile to the seawall, and in some maybe most jurisdictions that isn't allowed, then you will need maybe two short piles alongside also driven deeply in a dolphin configuration to cover the loads.


But that system provides fairly easy set and forget hurricane protection.


David

 

[Shrew]

I’m concerned that the insurance company prefers dry storage because it’s cheaper for them when the boat falls over VS pulling it out of the water, but what I’m personally interested in is protecting the boat. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

You're looking at it the wrong way. Forget about the boat. Protect your personal finances first, a boat can be replaced. If destroyed on land is easily covered and destroyed in the water is not so much, then find a way to get it where it will be more easily covered by the policy.

I wouldn't worry about which is cheaper for insurance or their motivation. Your motivation should be whatever is cheaper for you, and that is protecting your investment and your interests. It doesn't matter whether you feel it is safer in A or B.

One final thought. I've never seen a situation where the boats in the marina fare better than the boats on land. If the boats on land are in a pile, the boats in the water are in the same pile or piled along the seawall as compared to the back lot of the boatyard.

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: It all depends. There's good and bad with both. In a nice slip at a floating dock with good protection and pilings higher than the highest surge is good. Dry land at a facility like Jarrett Bay is good. Then you have all the other variations.

Harborage is excellent and the floating docks are designed to handle 12' surge. I'd rather have a slip than a side tie, but keep in mind their slips are basically side ties with just two boats side by side and no pilings or anything between them. Location within the marina is a bit important. Overall a well protected harbor.

 

[Group9]

Wifey B: It all depends. There's good and bad with both. In a nice slip at a floating dock with good protection and pilings higher than the highest surge is good. Dry land at a facility like Jarrett Bay is good. Then you have all the other variations.

Harborage is excellent and the floating docks are designed to handle 12' surge. I'd rather have a slip than a side tie, but keep in mind their slips are basically side ties with just two boats side by side and no pilings or anything between them. Location within the marina is a bit important. Overall a well protected harbor.

And, it's not fun to acknowledge, but luck plays a factor. A friend of mine anchored his boat out for Katrina (and rode it out on it) in a bay. He started dragging, while watching boats all around him, dragging as well, that were destroyed when they finally got to an immovable object. Suddenly, his anchor dug in (so he thought) and he didn't drag the rest of the storm.

Months later, when he pulled up his anchor, he found he had hooked a power cable, the only thing that saved him and his boat.

And, yes, he says there is no force on earth that will make him ever ride another one out on a boat.

 

[Ski in NC]

A marina or slip with exposure to open water is a no-go in a storm. You can plan for surge if piling heights are sufficient and you do a good job tying. But waves on top of surge will bash your boat.

Unless you are in a well protected harbor, which is rare, you are better off on the hill.

Need to make sure the hill has enough elevation, and that the soil is sound. Look at drainage too, we had some boats topple when rain runoff eroded soil around stands.

 

[O C Diver]

One final thought. I've never seen a situation where the boats in the marina fare better than the boats on land. If the boats on land are in a pile, the boats in the water are in the same pile or piled along the seawall as compared to the back lot of the boatyard.

That's misleading as a blanket statement. Many boats on land sit in open areas without wind protection whereas boat basins can be quite protected from wind by basin walls, buildings and trees. Also, many boats have been lost by storm surge lifting them off their keel blocks and jack stands while boats in the water with high enough pilings survived unscathed.

While I would evaluate each option in a given area before making a decision, an open boatyard a few feet above high tide, isn't likely to be my first choice.

Ted

 

[BandB]

That's misleading as a blanket statement. Many boats on land sit in open areas without wind protection whereas boat basins can be quite protected from wind by basin walls, buildings and trees. Also, many boats have been lost by storm surge lifting them off their keel blocks and jack stands while boats in the water with high enough pilings survived unscathed.

While I would evaluate each option in a given area before making a decision, an open boatyard a few feet above high tide, isn't likely to be my first choice.

Ted

After Harvey, we went to Rockport, TX. Nothing there fared well but the boats neatly placed on land all were tossed into each other and there was an outdoors dry stack that was totally inadequate for the winds so those boats tumbled. The marina didn't do any better but it wasn't built to what should be today's standards.

The realization we had was that Rockport, TX was not in any way prepared for such a storm. Buildings and homes weren't constructed to adequate standards, boats stored on land weren't protected, marinas weren't built to adequate standards.

You saw much the same in New Bern when hit by Florence with boats on land and in the water. But then go back to Sandy and the northeast.

People tend to lump all marinas and all dry storage together just as they do all coastal communities. However, there's a huge difference in open marina's in Biscayne Bay versus ICW Marinas in Fort Lauderdale and a huge difference from land storage with little protection vs. Jarrett Bay and open dry storage vs. dry storage facilities built to 150 mph standards. We live on the water and people immediately associate that with flooding but yet our home isn't in a 100 year flood zone and there's never been surge of 6'.

I find it most disturbing that while Dade and Broward have hurricane construction standards, the state of Florida doesn't have those same standards throughout. The recovery in the Panhandle isn't progressing at a satisfactory level and the construction was clearly inadequate but will the rebuild be any different?

As you consider where to keep your boat, ask the hard questions and do research of history. Data is readily available.

 

[O C Diver]

I find it most disturbing that while Dade and Broward have hurricane construction standards, the state of Florida doesn't have those same standards throughout. The recovery in the Panhandle isn't progressing at a satisfactory level and the construction was clearly inadequate but will the rebuild be any different?

I think you're being unrealistic on this. There are many counties in Florida that don't require that stand of construction as storms of this nature in their area are less than once in a hundred years. The added cost would clearly keep many from homeownership. If the standard is to be capable of withstanding the hundred year storm, then Dade and Broward counties will need to raise their's as they certainly don't meet the requirement to withstand 185 MPH winds and associated storm surge that happened less than 100 miles Southwest of them 84 years ago.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1935_Labor_Day_hurricane

Ted

 

[Group9]

One thing about hurricanes, for good or bad, is that they hit the same places, in the same way, over and over again, for the most part.

Prepare, and build, for what happened in the past, because it will happen again.

 

[psneeld]

Group 9.....I understand your thinking, but realistically, isn't it more like some road intersections are more dangerous that hurricanes are "more likely to affect" some areas they have hit directly than other areas.


The hurricane center I believe has a probability map for repeat areas and some are much higher than others.


The Keys come to mind as an area that has pretty high repeatability...maybe not, but if I built there, it would be as storm proof as I could afford.


Aren't most things in life usually based on calculated risks? Not absolutes?

 

[Group9]

Group 9.....I understand your thinking, but realistically, isn't it more like some road intersections are more dangerous that hurricanes are "more likely to affect" some areas they have hit directly than other areas.


The hurricane center I believe has a probability map for repeat areas and some are much higher than others.


The Keys come to mind as an area that has pretty high repeatability...maybe not, but if I built there, it would be as storm proof as I could afford.


Aren't most things in life usually based on calculated risks? Not absolutes?

No doubt, but I live in one of the most hurricane prone areas in the world. But, even worse, our offshore hydrography, makes the surge worse than in an area such as the Keys. We historically get the same hurricane damage over and over again. Even Katrina, was apparently no worse than the hurricanes of 1691 and 1692, which completely wiped out the Spanish presense in Mississippi and washed Spanish ships 15 miles inland.

I just retuned from the Panama City/Mexico Beach area, and I kept my mouth shut, but I just kept thinking, “This damage doesn’t really look that bad.”

Of course, my standard for “bad” is Camille and Katrina.

 

[BandB]

I think you're being unrealistic on this. There are many counties in Florida that don't require that stand of construction as storms of this nature in their area are less than once in a hundred years. The added cost would clearly keep many from homeownership. If the standard is to be capable of withstanding the hundred year storm, then Dade and Broward counties will need to raise their's as they certainly don't meet the requirement to withstand 185 MPH winds and associated storm surge that happened less than 100 miles Southwest of them 84 years ago.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1935_Labor_Day_hurricane

Ted

I don't mean the entire state at 150 mph, although I implied that. I do mean coastal areas at 130-150 mph and inland areas at what's appropriate for them. Mainly don't rebuild areas that are ravaged without some new requirements.

Once the standards are implemented, they aren't as costly as you might think on new homes. There are levels too. Broward is actually 140 mph vs Dade at 150 mph but most build here at Dade standards.

I have friends who have updated their homes by replacing all windows and doors and the payoff in insurance savings has been less than 3 years. People upgrade roofs when they have to replace anyway.

Building out of CBS just doesn't cost much more, if any. Now some may not like it aesthetically but then they'd probably be amazed at the beautiful homes built from it.

As to marinas, there's not a lot of extra cost to making a piling taller and most marinas going to concrete floating now anyway.

As to Hurricane Three which you reference, measurements have changed since then and while it had winds recorded at 185 mph, at land level they were likely considerably less and the area hit and surge was an extremely small area.

Monroe County is very strict with building codes and it's amazing how well the homes built to these standards did during Irma. Now the homes destroyed will be rebuilt to these standards.

 

[O C Diver]

I don't mean the entire state at 150 mph, although I implied that. I do mean coastal areas at 130-150 mph and inland areas at what's appropriate for them. Mainly don't rebuild areas that are ravaged without some new requirements.

Once the standards are implemented, they aren't as costly as you might think on new homes. There are levels too. Broward is actually 140 mph vs Dade at 150 mph but most build here at Dade standards.

I have friends who have updated their homes by replacing all windows and doors and the payoff in insurance savings has been less than 3 years. People upgrade roofs when they have to replace anyway.

Building out of CBS just doesn't cost much more, if any. Now some may not like it aesthetically but then they'd probably be amazed at the beautiful homes built from it.

As to marinas, there's not a lot of extra cost to making a piling taller and most marinas going to concrete floating now anyway.

As to Hurricane Three which you reference, measurements have changed since then and while it had winds recorded at 185 mph, at land level they were likely considerably less and the area hit and surge was an extremely small area.

Monroe County is very strict with building codes and it's amazing how well the homes built to these standards did during Irma. Now the homes destroyed will be rebuilt to these standards.

I don't mostly disagree with you. My home in Fort Myers meets all those requirements except for hurricane proof windows, and it's 18 years old. I certainly wouldn't settle for less, but I can afford it.

Take a trip to Marianna Florida. Hurricane Michael went right over it. Winds in excess of 150 MPH. Trees are snapped off above 30'. Some brick and block buildings were collapsed. At 40 to 50 miles from the coast, you would probably think the Dade and Broward county codes should apply. Problem is that 70%+ of the residents with destroyed homes would have to leave because they can't afford to build to that standard. This is one of the areas in FL with lots of stick built homes and manufactured housing (modular homes). With their departure, probably most of the business would fail.

You should read a book that covers the Labor Day Storm before being dismissive about its force and devastation in such a short period of time. "Last Train To Paradise" does a good job of covering a substantial number of survivor accounts of the storm. Doubt you would find many 2 and 3 story residential homes built CBS that would survive 185 MPH winds. Single story homes with the reduced surface area and more obstructed wind path would be much more likely survivors.

Ted

 

[Shrew]

That's misleading as a blanket statement. Many boats on land sit in open areas without wind protection whereas boat basins can be quite protected from wind by basin walls, buildings and trees. Also, many boats have been lost by storm surge lifting them off their keel blocks and jack stands while boats in the water with high enough pilings survived unscathed.

While I would evaluate each option in a given area before making a decision, an open boatyard a few feet above high tide, isn't likely to be my first choice.

Not at all misleading. I said I've yet to see it. I never it didn't or couldn't happen. There are no absolutes. However, you're sort of swinging for the fences the other way. You've seen an incident that contradicts statistically common outcomes and are now contending THAT is the absolute???

It would be a rare combination of factors where the boats on land fare worse than the boats in the water. Insurance policies are written based on statistical analysis of historical outcomes. If they are saying "on land"....... statistcally, that is your best bet.

 

[BandB]

Not at all misleading. I said I've yet to see it. I never it didn't or couldn't happen. There are no absolutes. However, you're sort of swinging for the fences the other way. You've seen an incident that contradicts statistically common outcomes and are now contending THAT is the absolute???

It would be a rare combination of factors where the boats on land fare worse than the boats in the water. Insurance policies are written based on statistical analysis of historical outcomes. If they are saying "on land"....... statistcally, that is your best bet.

Only your best bet if the land facilities are hurricane ready and the marina isn't. Now it's historically been marinas were not, but that's changed. My insurance policy says nothing about "on land." There are no statistics out there to show the relative safety of land and water and unless they were specific and location by location and all different type storms they'd still be of little use.

There are 1 million boats in Florida. How would you suggest getting them all on land? The reality is there are very safe places on the water. Fort Lauderdale Marinas are sheltered. There is a 12 mile long wave attenuator.

It is not rare for boats on land to fare worse than those in the water. I've seen it many times. Seen it during Harvey, Irma and Florence. Seen it in a variety of locations.

There are no absolutes. Every marina, every yard, every location is different. Two marinas side by side are different. Move 200' and it's different. Our home is safely elevated and yet older homes 4 doors from us and less exposed are not as they sit 3' lower in spite of looking the same. Our lot looks flat but it isn't. Our seawall is taller than those 500' away. Our home appears level with the street. It isn't. The drive is ever so slightly sloped and then there are two steps to the entrance. Our garage is level with the drive at it's point but there's a ramp from the garage into the house.

One must examine all variables and then decide what is right for them. We've analyzed and made our decisions. Boats stay where they are which is not at our home. We stay in our home. We have generators and if we had to could set up a water maker but have them in our boats. We have ribs in our garage and cars stored elsewhere to get out when the road is blocked. Worst case we'd RIB to boat with generator and watermaker and bring it back home. Our corporate office is downtown, within walking distance of the water or an easy drive and the last area to lose power and first to get it back. Our plan is right for us, but not everyone. Just don't act like it's not carefully thought out and like yours is the only way. The reality is yours is an impossible way.

 

[O C Diver]

Not at all misleading. I said I've yet to see it. I never it didn't or couldn't happen. There are no absolutes. However, you're sort of swinging for the fences the other way. You've seen an incident that contradicts statistically common outcomes and are now contending THAT is the absolute???

It would be a rare combination of factors where the boats on land fare worse than the boats in the water. Insurance policies are written based on statistical analysis of historical outcomes. If they are saying "on land"....... statistcally, that is your best bet.

Sorry if I ruffled your feathers. Are your observations based on Rhode Island and maybe New England or further South? On average, I doubt New England has much in the way hurricane rated floating docks, which may explain your observations. Historical outcomes really don't have much bearing when you look at the floating dock technology of the last 10 to 15 years. Boats in protected basins with modern floating docks, such as the 2 or 3 marinas in Fort Myers, just add more lines as opposed to hauling out.

My insurance policy has no requirement for haulout in the event of a named storm. They cover expenses to move the boat or haulout as I see fit.

Ted

 

[Dougcole]

To take this thread back to the original OP, I'm pretty happy with my boat's location, hurricane wise. It's way up the St. Lucie River (about 12 miles by water, less as the crow flies) then a few more miles up the Lost River, which is narrow and winding, then at the end of a narrow canal surrounded by homes. It's side tied to a dock with pilings that are about 12' above the normal water level. For storms all the boats in the canal work together and spiderweb in the middle.


It's not perfect though, there are lots of trees around the canal that could shed debris. And the house roofs could come off, turning into missiles. The canal would be better if it were 10 or 20 feet wider as it would give more room to suspend in the middle. Obviously, a massive surge event would give me problems, but it can handle quite a bit of surge. Likewise, if 185 mph blows directly over it, I'm toast, but I'm not sure how you withstand that really. I think only the very best yards could handle it. Very, very few.


Another advantage is that I don't have to go through the craziness of getting the boat hauled, then relaunched, all at the last minute with everyone on short fuses. I live six hours away from the boat, so prep is always difficult. I have to prep the boat and our home. It's much nicer to prep it a few days before the storm then head home and prep the house if needed.


All in all, I like it better than Central Florida Marine where I used to get hauled which is much closer to the inlet, on open water and low. So no, on the hard isn't always better.