Load dump - Lifepo4 - Generator - battery charger

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Simi 60

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Questions for now but after reading several posts here and reading marine how to articles about alternators and lifepo4 it seems that alts get hit with a fatal load dump spike if the BMS disconnects.

My first question would be, what is in place to protect the generator if the same thing happens?
Could it be that this will not happen as it's the inverter/charger programming that does the shutdown and not the BMS?
 
I noticed when on the hard and connected to shore power when the LFP bank was fully charged it went into 27.2v "float" - there was no disconnect by BMS.

Why do the alternator charge options have this happen?
 
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I had a Sterling Alternator Protection Device for our last boat in case the BMS shutdown the batteries while the alternator was charging them.
 
A sudden load drop won't hurt a generator. With an alternator it's the output diodes that get hurt if the output gets totally disconnected (a sudden load change without a total disconnect won't hurt though). A generator doesn't have those, so it's just a question of how fast the voltage regulator and governor respond and how much of a voltage and frequency spike you'll get on the output.

If you keep the voltage regulated appropriately during charging, you shouldn't normally get a disconnect. You still want to protect and alternator against it just in case.
 
A sudden load drop won't hurt a generator. With an alternator it's the output diodes that get hurt if the output gets totally disconnected (a sudden load change without a total disconnect won't hurt though). A generator doesn't have those, so it's just a question of how fast the voltage regulator and governor respond and how much of a voltage and frequency spike you'll get on the output.

Good to know and I learned something new :thumb:
But if the charger that the generator is running through is set up correctly the battery won't overcharge so BMS won't come into play.

The Charger is essentially the first line of defence.

Wouldn't it make sense then to have charging done via an actual charger vs expensive alternators and what seems to me to be, issues?

I know many are advocates for DC - DC chargers from starts, but I am yet to find one of those that puts out much in the way of amps.
 
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I had a Sterling Alternator Protection Device for our last boat in case the BMS shutdown the batteries while the alternator was charging them.
But why is the BMS even coming into play?
Surely all that expensive balmar/sterling stuff should have something that regulates the charge when batts hit a programmable voltage?
 
Good to know and I learned something new :thumb:
But if the charger that the generator is running through is set up correctly the battery won't overcharge so BMS won't come into play.

The Charger is essentially the first line of defence.

Wouldn't it make sense then to have charging done via an actual charger vs expensive alternators and what seems to me to be, issues?

I know many are advocates for DC - DC chargers from starts, but I am yet to find one of those that puts out much in the way of amps.

An appropriately regulated alternator would achieve the same. I agree on the lack of good DC-DC chargers in big sizes. Protecting the alternator can be simple. A small lead acid battery connected to the output (or use the starting battery) and an ACR will do the trick. The lead acid won't get an ideal charge (and may get over absorbed), but if the BMS does disconnect the alternator output isn't disconnected and the diodes won't get zapped.

Ideally the situation will never come up, but it's good to know the alternator will live if something does cause a BMS disconnect with the engine running.
 
An appropriately regulated alternator would achieve the same.
.

But at what cost?
For example, how much would one need to spend on alts and extras to match our existing 120amp @ 24v charger output?

I agree on the lack of good DC-DC chargers in big sizes.
tis' unfortunate

Protecting the alternator can be simple. A small lead acid battery connected to the output (or use the starting battery) and an ACR will do the trick. The lead acid won't get an ideal charge (and may get over absorbed), but if the BMS does disconnect the alternator output isn't disconnected and the diodes won't get zapped.

Ideally the situation will never come up, but it's good to know the alternator will live if something does cause a BMS disconnect with the engine running

We had a Victron VSR (same as an ACR???) when we had the AGM bank
Still managed to kill off 2 large frame alts but that would have been overworking a "continuosly rated" alt not a voltage spike
 
Depending on the alternator in question, some can have an external regulator added easily without having to buy an extensive alternator. Most alternators will need their output limited to avoid cooking if they're charging a big enough battery bank.
 
Which gets me back to something I have mentioned before but had no real response to.

Why not use the existing charger onboard and connect a 3.5kva generator head to it?

(Below is a Mecc Alte head as an example)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mecc-Alte-...7-0022-4897-bea4-95cb8a78672f&redirect=mobile

Online calculators allow you to choose a pulley suited to cruise rpm
Sure, you'll get nothing at idle but once underway you'll be smashing the amps in , continually and doing it for hundreds of dollars, not thousands.

Continual power at cruise rpm
Low cost
No BMS disconnect as running through the inverter/charger

Am I missing something?
 
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But why is the BMS even coming into play?
Surely all that expensive balmar/sterling stuff should have something that regulates the charge when batts hit a programmable voltage?


It's strictly a failure condition. In a correctly operating system, the BMS will never disconnect the battery. If it does, it's because something went wrong and a charger has run amuck, assuming it's an overcharge issue. The BMS disconnect is an action of last resort to keep the battery from becoming dangerously overcharged. And if that happens when an alternator is running at high output, that's where the problem arises.


When the alternator is running at high output and the battery suddenly disconnects, all you are left with are the house loads. That will likely be a big change in load, and that rapid change in alternator load causes a voltage spike, and that spike can be damaging to attached loads and to the alternator itself.


One solution, and really the only solution for internal BMS products, is some sort of clamping diode that limits the voltage spike. With an external BMS, and hopefully internal BMSes in the future, the BMS provides a signal of impending BMS disconnect and that can be used to shut off the alternator.


Hope that helps explain it.
 
Which gets me back to something I have mentioned before but had no real response to.

Why not use the existing charger onboard and connect a 3.5kva generator head to it?

(Below is a Mecc Alte head as an example)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mecc-Alte-...7-0022-4897-bea4-95cb8a78672f&redirect=mobile

Online calculators allow you to choose a pulley suited to cruise rpm
Sure, you'll get nothing at idle but once underway you'll be smashing the amps in , continually and doing it for hundreds of dollars, not thousands.

Continual power at cruise rpm
Low cost
No BMS disconnect as running through the inverter/charger

Am I missing something?


I think I answered this in the other thread where you brought it up. Yes, you could do it. The down side is that there would only be one engine RPM where it would produce usable power at 50hz or 60hz, and even then it would be poorly regulated. But if that's acceptable to you...
 
But why is the BMS even coming into play?
Surely all that expensive balmar/sterling stuff should have something that regulates the charge when batts hit a programmable voltage?


It's strictly a failure condition. In a correctly operating system, the BMS will never disconnect the battery. If it does, it's because something went wrong and a charger has run amuck, assuming it's an overcharge issue. The BMS disconnect is an action of last resort to keep the battery from becoming dangerously overcharged. And if that happens when an alternator is running at high output, that's where the problem arises.


When the alternator is running at high output and the battery suddenly disconnects, all you are left with are the house loads. That will likely be a big change in load, and that rapid change in alternator load causes a voltage spike, and that spike can be damaging to attached loads and to the alternator itself.


One solution, and really the only solution for internal BMS products, is some sort of clamping diode that limits the voltage spike. With an external BMS, and hopefully internal BMSes in the future, the BMS provides a signal of impending BMS disconnect and that can be used to shut off the alternator.


Hope that helps explain it.
 
I think I answered this in the other thread where you brought it up. Yes, you could do it. The down side is that there would only be one engine RPM where it would produce usable power at 50hz or 60hz, and even then it would be poorly regulated. But if that's acceptable to you...

You did, sort of and were the single responder
I was hoping to get more input in this seperate thread.

The only one RPM I am fine with
We do 99% of our miles at one RPM
Generators do 100% of their running at one RPM

But poorly regulated?
What do you mean by that?
 
You did, sort of and were the single responder
I was hoping to get more input in this seperate thread.

The only one RPM I am fine with
We do 99% of our miles at one RPM
Generators do 100% of their running at one RPM

But poorly regulated?
What do you mean by that?


Frequency regulation will be only as good as the governor on your engine. Propulsion engines usually allow for more droop than a generator governor.


Also generators have some sort of voltage regulation. I don't know what the unit you linked requires, if anything, and how tightly it will regulate voltage.


I really don't know how much of an issue either of these might be, but they are the things I'd worry about and want to look into further.
 
Frequency regulation will be only as good as the governor on your engine. Propulsion engines usually allow for more droop than a generator governor.


Also generators have some sort of voltage regulation. I don't know what the unit you linked requires, if anything, and how tightly it will regulate voltage.


I really don't know how much of an issue either of these might be, but they are the things I'd worry about and want to look into further.


But if we can get these addressed (I'll call Oz supplier on Monday and ask) it sounds like it'll be a far superior source of charging on passage than $3 grand worth of alternator that wants to limit the output because it can't handle the work.
 
It shouldn't take a $3000 alternator to do the job. Any unit that you can access the field terminals to change out the regulator for an external one will do. Then it's just a matter of keeping it cool and putting a temp sensor on it to get as much output as possible.
 
It shouldn't take a $3000 alternator to do the job. Any unit that you can access the field terminals to change out the regulator for an external one will do. Then it's just a matter of keeping it cool and putting a temp sensor on it to get as much output as possible.


I have seen nothing in an alternator that can smash out 140 amps @ 24v continually or anything close to it for less.

Perhaps you can point me in the right direction?

I did see a BIM that'll give 15 minutes on, 20 minutes off
But only in 12v can't find anything like it in 24v and as it spends more time off than on even bigger alts again would be needed
https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/lifepo4-battery-isolation-manager/
 
That quantity of power might be best done with 2 alternators. Stuff that can cool well enough to make that kind of power continuously is going to be hard to come by. But stuff that can do half of that is easier and should be much cheaper even if you need 2 of them.
 
I have seen nothing in an alternator that can smash out 140 amps @ 24v continually or anything close to it for less.

Perhaps you can point me in the right direction?

I did see a BIM that'll give 15 minutes on, 20 minutes off
But only in 12v can't find anything like it in 24v and as it spends more time off than on even bigger alts again would be needed
https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/lifepo4-battery-isolation-manager/


I've been using Prestolite/Leece-Nevelle 4000 series alternators for a while, available in 200A @ 24V. They will do a sustained 200A, but they get hot, so I think derating is probably a good idea. But it woud give you 150A or more continuously with no trouble. $1500 in the US, but shipping might be what drives the price up so high in Oz.


https://prestolitesuperstore.com/Ca...ernator-4000-Series-J180-Mount-type-24V-200A/
 
Another solution may be using a hydraulic driven generator. This would allow you to run your main propulsion engine at any RPM while the generator would maintain correct RPM to maintain proper frequency. Here’s an example

https://dynaset.com/product/hg-hydraulic-generator/

John
 
Questions for now...

Some questions and comments:

What is your current 24v 120a charger that you mention? Can it have additional alternators or generators fitted?

Would your dead alternators have survived if they had a simple temperature controller added? It would be fairly easy and cheap to add the main features of the external regulators: a temp controller, an output shut off regulator and a small LA battery for when output is terminated. The main feature that I see as difficult to replicate would be load throttling to prevent over heating but the temp controller and relay could achieve this via a crude form of PWM.

I'd agree with posts in the other threads that the cheap 3000/3600 rpm generator heads don't last long when run continuosly at high loads. We were killing these every few months on job sites when left to run aircons etc 24/7. Intermittent use for contractor tools is fine but continuous use killed them quickly. Most are also designed for direct drive, relying on the drive shaft for bearings. Generally there is no allowance for the side loads present in a belt drive setup. Some form af bearing support would have to be added. Comparing like for like, a Chinesium 1500rpm 5 or 10kva head is only USD500 delivered. The down side is it's big and 120kg. Yes, Alibaba quality but I would be a lot more confident of these running 24/7 at 80% load than the high speed units. If required, name brands are also available.

Much of the comparison seems to be apples and oranges. I don't see much merit in comparing a full Balmar/Victron setup with a cheap generator head with diy control and wiring. Both have merits and issues but I see direct comparisons as misleading. Each to their own.

In my mind the two budget options would be a $600 generator feeding direct to an inverter charger with that inverter providing the control logic. If the aim is providing charging for hours while underway, then I don't see rpm and frequency control as a difficult issue. Let's call it $1000 including diy install.

A large frame Chinese alternator is ~$1500 for up to 15kw. Add another $500 for temperature control, SLA bank and out put relay for a $2000 total.

Again, both of these options can be grossed up for name brands.
 

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Some questions and comments:

What is your current 24v 120a charger that you mention? Can it have additional alternators or generators fitted?
It's the 5000/120 amp victron multiplus we have
Power for that when required is a 7kVA genset head on a 21hp Kubota that was a hard runner when made.
But it doesn't produce full power as it's been wound back by previous owner (to noisy before) to 1500rpm so only getting around 4kva now


Would your dead alternators have survived if they had a simple temperature controller added? It would be fairly easy and cheap to add the main features of the external regulators: a temp controller, an output shut off regulator and a small LA battery for when output is terminated. The main feature that I see as difficult to replicate would be load throttling to prevent over heating but the temp controller and relay could achieve this via a crude form of PWM.
Maybe, don't know, not wanting to guinea pig another one together to try - not if I can get real power for similar coin

I'd agree with posts in the other threads that the cheap 3000/3600 rpm generator heads don't last long when run continuosly at high loads. We were killing these every few months on job sites when left to run aircons etc 24/7. Intermittent use for contractor tools is fine but continuous use killed them quickly.
.
I missed any mention on them not lasting in other threads
And running for several hours then a week off is not what I consider continuous use
Biggest days are probably 12 hours once or twice a year

Most are also designed for direct drive, relying on the drive shaft for bearings. Generally there is no allowance for the side loads present in a belt drive setup. Some form af bearing support would have to be added. Comparing like for like, a Chinesium 1500rpm 5 or 10kva head is only USD500 delivered. The down side is it's big and 120kg. Yes, Alibaba quality but I would be a lot more confident of these running 24/7 at 80% load than the high speed units. If required, name brands are also available.

Much of the comparison seems to be apples and oranges. I don't see much merit in comparing a full Balmar/Victron setup with a cheap generator head with diy control and wiring. Both have merits and issues but I see direct comparisons as misleading. Each to their own
.

Big and bulky is not an option

And that head was just an example
There are belt driven versions out there
The only reason I put balmar in the mix was it's there with pricing and what many seem to use - but not the way I want to go.

And Mecc Alte is an Italian build so I would not have thought it a "cheap" brand - more balmar is an expensive one (-;
In my mind the two budget options would be a $600 generator feeding direct to an inverter charger with that inverter providing the control logic. If the aim is providing charging for hours while underway, then I don't see rpm and frequency control as a difficult issue. Let's call it $1000 including diy install.
Exactly what I am trying to do.
With a name brand head

A large frame Chinese alternator is ~$1500 for up to 15kw. Add another $500 for temperature control, SLA bank and out put relay for a $2000 total.
Not if I can get a result for a grand like mentioned prior.

At the end of the day this is not a "need" it's a want

We have 2500w of solar - but recently, not much sun - first time in years - now the rains clearing out we are starting to see this big lifepo4 bank playing catch-up.
We have a Genset and charger that puts in 120amps/hour
A 3rd reasonable power generation source would be nice when underway and for under a $1000 I'd be keen but I don't need it for $3000
 
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Another solution may be using a hydraulic driven generator. This would allow you to run your main propulsion engine at any RPM while the generator would maintain correct RPM to maintain proper frequency. Here’s an example

https://dynaset.com/product/hg-hydraulic-generator/

John

That is nice but I suspect more than I am wanting to spend this year.

Add: actually, that's a very nice solution
Mount anywhere is a big plus.
 
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I've been using Prestolite/Leece-Nevelle 4000 series alternators for a while, available in 200A @ 24V. They will do a sustained 200A, but they get hot, so I think derating is probably a good idea. But it woud give you 150A or more continuously with no trouble. $1500 in the US, but shipping might be what drives the price up so high in Oz.


https://prestolitesuperstore.com/Ca...ernator-4000-Series-J180-Mount-type-24V-200A/

And exchange rates
$1500 USD is already $2020 AUD, would be every bit of $2500 if bringing it in myself

Not worth it if having to de-rate it to keep the smoke in ;)
 
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Another solution may be using a hydraulic driven generator. This would allow you to run your main propulsion engine at any RPM while the generator would maintain correct RPM to maintain proper frequency. Here’s an example

https://dynaset.com/product/hg-hydraulic-generator/

John

A very interesting concept. I did not know there was such a thing. But the hydraulic pump would need to be attached to the main motor, yes? In order to pump into the generator. It would be like having power steering added but driving the generator. What mean is that the load on the main engine should be minimal.
 
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For our system, I used a belt and suspenders approach to protect the alternators- each alternator has a Sterling APD, and the Wakespeed external regulators monitor the battery bank and regulate the alternator output as required.
 
A very interesting concept. I did not know there was such a thing. But the hydraulic pump would need to be attached to the main motor, yes? In order to pump into the generator. It would be like having power steering added but driving the generator. What mean is that the load on the main engine should be minimal.

Or a pto off the gearbox
 
Well, just had a quote come back from the generator shop that was selling these heads.
A 10kva Mecc Alte brand made in Italy and set up to be belt driven.

With outlet fitted, $395 + gst

Reckons he's sold plenty over the years, never had a return

10kva 50hz 240v is only 245mm wide and 460mm long

Think it'll be worth further investigation.
 
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