Magnum inverter - brief drop-out

[mvweebles]

I have a Magnum 12v 3kw inverter 125A charger that is about 3 years old. It's has a minor issue since say one that hasn't been more than a nuisance until recently.

Every few minutes, I hear a very audible relay click. Apparently, the 120vac drops out momentarily which I found out when running my watermaker off inverter (can hear the pressure pump drop very briefly). Watermaker pressure hi-pump draws just under 1000 watts so we'll within the 3000w continuous rating. And again, the relay drop-out on the inverter happens all the time whether or not it's underload, just never noticeable until I started running the watermaker.

Magnum has not been responsive, though in fairness it's only been a couple days. Thought some of the TF gurus might have a breadcrumb for me to chase.

Thoughts?

Peter

 

[Bmarler]

Is it happening while under way as well as while anchored? I’m just thinking about it being a voltage related issue.

 

[mvweebles]

Is it happening while under way as well as while anchored? I’m just thinking about it being a voltage related issue.

Thanks for quick response. I don't think it's voltage. I only run watermaker when underway. Behind the 600Ah of LFP batteries is 225A Balmar dialed back to 150A, plus 800W solar. Plus it seems to happen regardless of load - I've just always ignored the relay click......until now that its hammering my hi-pressuee pump.

I'll try calling Magnum later but their website is pretty clear they don't answer due to high call volume (hmmm.....maybe that should tell me something?)

Peter

 

[Bmarler]

Since it happens so regularly, I would monitor the panel for the inverter and see if anything is going on when the relay drops out.
I remember you had a pretty robust charging system, but maybe a cable end or something is having trouble.

 

[SteveK]

Peter. I have Magnum 2012 and found out Sensata bought magna and is selling off stock new ones but no parts for old ones. Thus why they are not replying. I have a case number a year old and they do not reply when asking for update.

As to your problem, it may be overheat shut off

 

[mvweebles]

Peter. I have Magnum 2012 and found out Sensata bought magna and is selling off stock new ones but no parts for old ones. Thus why they are not replying. I have a case number a year old and they do not reply when asking for update.

As to your problem, it may be overheat shut off

Doesn't sound good. I'll keep y'all posted. Sounds like I have more Victron in my future....

It could be some sort of sensor shut-down, but since it happens regularly whether under load or not, must be a malfunctioning interlock sensor (or whatever). It's a pretty loud relay so I assume it's a good size. Maybe transfer switch? I know very little about this stuff.

Peter

 

[sunchaser]

Is this a new thing coincidental with the recent hookup of the water maker? What is the instantaneous power surge when the pump starts up and how long does the surge last? Measure at the pump breaker as well as note the total inverter load during the surge.

 

[CharlieO.]

I've been leaning toward Victron for the couple things I want to buy. I've been checking the PKYS website as suggested by someone on TF. I'll call them before ordering just to see if someone answers the phone.

 

[mvweebles]

I've been leaning toward Victron for the couple things I want to buy. I've been checking the PKYS website as suggested by someone on TF. I'll call them before ordering just to see if someone answers the phone.

I'm a fan of PKYS. Wish I'd found them earlier in my refit. When I finally understood the Victron support model (via the dealer - no factory support), became abundantly clear that who you purchase from is incredibly important. PKYS was generous enough to provide tech support for kit I purchased elsewhere (though cannot provide warranty support).

I'm sure there are other quality Victron suppliers, but I'm sticking with Peter Kennedy. Looks like I'll be ordering an inverter/charger when I'm able to.

Peter

 

[Ka_sea_ta]

I would look to see what else is being powered by the inverter when this happens. refrigeration, air conditioning systems, anything else with an AC load? Once the HP pump starts the load should be pretty static, however other ac powered devices could momentarily push the inverter over the edge.

 

[mvweebles]

Any thoughts on disabling the auto transfer switch? The more I think of it, the more I think the transfer switch is interrupting the service. The relay sound is pretty prominent - what else could it be?

My main electrical panel has slide-lockouts on the shore/generator/inverter breakers so I don't need an ATS. Thoughts? Any ideas on low-risk way to disable or bypass the ATS?

Peter

 

[SteveK]

Are you referring to the built in magnum transfer switch?
Easy, disconnect 120v AC power to it from an external source. It will then be in invert mode all the time. No chargeing, no pass through.
Or what other transfer switch?

 

[Bmarler]

I doubt mastervolt would give you the option to disable the transfer switch.
I’m not positive, but the transfer switches seem to more than a simple relay. There’s power and heat monitoring circuits built into the inverter to protect it that will open the circuit. I always thought it was a simple reversing type relay, but apparently that’s not the case. (At least on the xantrex on I have anyway)
I don’t know what information you can see on the user panel, but I would be trying to see if I could read the dc buss voltage and temperature, also monitoring the incoming dc volts to look for anomalies.

 

[twistedtree]

Just to confirm…

- you have been hearing this for a long time, so it’s not something new? Just annoying now?

- this seems to happen regardless of load on the inverter?

- this is ONLY when operating in invert mode (no AC input) and does not happen when it does have AC input from shore or generator?

I would suggest breaking out your phone and timing the interval between these clicks. Is it always the same, or is it more random.

My theory, assuming the above understanding is correct, is that there is “phantom” voltage on the input due to cross coupling from other AC cables, and that the inverter thinks is sees good incoming AC, switches to it, and immediately discovered it’s not so good after all because it can’t support any load and disconnects. So you are hearing a rapid connect to AC then a disconnect. If the interval is regular, it further supports this theory, and will be the time it takes for the inverter to “qualify” the input power before switching to it.

Or I’m completely off base and it’s something completely different.

 

[luna]

Diagnosing complex electrical issues is seldom easy especially underway or on the hook. I would try some simple things after checking the wiring, which you have undoubtable done already.

To start with, no ac power should be present anywhere. Plus ensure the inverter off.

For testing purposes, I would replace the the original house LFP bank with a 12 V. start or thruster LA battery, using jumper cables or even short double 10 Ga wire. Connect these right to the inverter's dc terminals. No solar, LFP, switches, fuses or existing wiring for the test should be inline. Now connect them smoothly to the LA battery. Be careful with the no fuse part.

Start the inverter, put a 500W load on and see what happens.

If it stops clunking the problem lies on your dc side, which could get complex.

If it still clunks, it's likely that your dc side is fine, but leave the test dc wiring in place, except just smoothly remove the connections to the LA battery for safety purposes.
Check for ac power on the inverters output, you want there to be none. If there is ac power on the output (no battery and inverter off) and the voltage is falling slowly you are likely draining the inverter's capacitors which will take some time. Your meter itself, if kept awake, should do it slowly. Insulated alligator clips help with maintaining the connections.

Once there is no ac present remove both the inverter/chargers input ac and it's output ac wiring at the inverter. Mark them so you know which is which for installation.

Wire to the ac output of the inverter a regular 3 wire receptacle (just the female plug) on the end of what could be a short 16 Ga. extension cord where the male plug has been removed. Again, be careful with the wiring and the use of this test wiring as no over current protection exists.

Smoothly reconnect the dc power from the battery, start the inverter, and put the 500 W load on.

If it still happens you have just demonstrated that the problem is with the inverter and not the boat, nor is it TT's cross coupling theory, which is a sound theory but would require an unusual wiring layout.

If it stops happening, your problem lies on the boat, which becomes less simple.

You should be able to complete the whole test in about an hour, using only stuff that you likely have onboard. Move the LA battery close to the inverter to make the test wiring short. Hopefully it's not an 8D.

Then put everything back correctly (remember to first drain the capacitors as they could bite you) and test the operation.

If you feel any of this is daunting, have a local electrician give it a go, all you are doing is temporarily replacing your dc supply and the entire distribution wiring.

 

[mvweebles]

Diagnosing complex electrical issues is seldom easy especially underway or on the hook. I would try some simple things after checking the wiring, which you have undoubtable done already.

To start with, no ac power should be present anywhere. Plus ensure the inverter off.

For testing purposes, I would replace the the original house LFP bank with a 12 V. start or thruster LA battery, using jumper cables or even short double 10 Ga wire. Connect these right to the inverter's dc terminals. No solar, LFP, switches, fuses or existing wiring for the test should be inline. Now connect them smoothly to the LA battery. Be careful with the no fuse part.

Start the inverter, put a 500W load on and see what happens.

If it stops clunking the problem lies on your dc side, which could get complex.

If it still clunks, it's likely that your dc side is fine, but leave the test dc wiring in place, except just smoothly remove the connections to the LA battery for safety purposes.
Check for ac power on the inverters output, you want there to be none. If there is ac power on the output (no battery and inverter off) and the voltage is falling slowly you are likely draining the inverter's capacitors which will take some time. Your meter itself, if kept awake, should do it slowly. Insulated alligator clips help with maintaining the connections.

Once there is no ac present remove both the inverter/chargers input ac and it's output ac wiring at the inverter. Mark them so you know which is which for installation.

Wire to the ac output of the inverter a regular 3 wire receptacle (just the female plug) on the end of what could be a short 16 Ga. extension cord where the male plug has been removed. Again, be careful with the wiring and the use of this test wiring as no over current protection exists.

Smoothly reconnect the dc power from the battery, start the inverter, and put the 500 W load on.

If it still happens you have just demonstrated that the problem is with the inverter and not the boat, nor is it TT's cross coupling theory, which is a sound theory but would require an unusual wiring layout.

If it stops happening, your problem lies on the boat, which becomes less simple.

You should be able to complete the whole test in about an hour, using only stuff that you likely have onboard. Move the LA battery close to the inverter to make the test wiring short. Hopefully it's not an 8D.

Then put everything back correctly (remember to first drain the capacitors as they could bite you) and test the operation.

If you feel any of this is daunting, have a local electrician give it a go, all you are doing is temporarily replacing your dc supply and the entire distribution wiring.

Wow!!!! I will digest this. We've just landed in Ixtapa marina so timing is good. I fully understand your cautions along the way. Thank you so much for taking the time to explain.

Peter

 

[cafesport]

Couple of questions. Does this also happen when on shore power? Do you have an msh (hybrid) inverter? Do you have an me-arc remote? If so, any stored fault codes in the history? When not using shore power does it only happen during daylight hours? You have solar as I recall.

There are five items that the inverter monitors which might cause the relay to open as you describe, only two will immediately reset and not trigger a fault code. Both are battery voltage sense related ie the hi and lo cutout settings.

You switched to lithium batteries as I recall. Perhaps the voltage sags a bit more under the newer instantaneous high loads you are now applying. Try changing your setting for the voltage cutouts both high and low on the inverter setup menu.

 

[Jmreim]

Gave up on my Magnum Charger/Inverter. Help from the manufacturer is poor and parts availability is horrible. Switched to Victron and happy again.

 

[mvweebles]

Gave up on my Magnum Charger/Inverter. Help from the manufacturer is poor and parts availability is horrible. Switched to Victron and happy again.

Going to Victron is where I'm headed too. To bad - I understand Magnum was a decent company until a few years ago. But then again, so was Xantrex back in the day.

Peter

 

[Bmarler]

Going to Victron is where I'm headed too. To bad - I understand Magnum was a decent company until a few years ago. But then again, so was Xantrex back in the day.

Peter

i'm using xantrex right now and am reasonably happy with it. it's missing one function that i wish they wouldn't have dropped. there used to be one button or screen button to turn the charger off. no longer on option on this latest one i bought.
i need to recommend a new inverter for a dock neighbor that's got zero experience with these things. for you victron users, what all is needed to make the inverter usable, as in remote monitoring and control?

 

[mvweebles]

i'm using xantrex right now and am reasonably happy with it. it's missing one function that i wish they wouldn't have dropped. there used to be one button or screen button to turn the charger off. no longer on option on this latest one i bought.
i need to recommend a new inverter for a dock neighbor that's got zero experience with these things. for you victron users, what all is needed to make the inverter usable, as in remote monitoring and control?

I came close to purchasing this Victron charger/inverter before leaving Ensenada. Wish I had, even though it was almost $300 more at the time.

https://shop.pkys.com/multiplus-ii-12-3000-120-50

Annoyingly, it requires a separate module[ (HERE) to be fully programmable and uses a PC (Magnum was programmable off the included panel). Finally, there is an optional remote control panel for $124 which I would recommend to your neighbor.

While not specific to a specific inverter install, I would highly recommend the Victron smartshunt for about $135 or so. Very useful for troubleshooting.

Peter

 

[Bmarler]

I came close to purchasing this Victron charger/inverter before leaving Ensenada. Wish I had, even though it was almost $300 more at the time.

https://shop.pkys.com/multiplus-ii-12-3000-120-50

Annoyingly, it requires a separate module[ (HERE) to be fully programmable and uses a PC (Magnum was programmable off the included panel). Finally, there is an optional remote control panel for $124 which I would recommend to your neighbor.

While not specific to a specific inverter install, I would highly recommend the Victron smartshunt for about $135 or so. Very useful for troubleshooting.

Peter

Thanks Peter, I figured it was going to need a remote panel, and I thought it should be able to be programmed through that panel. Adding in the complexity of the USB adapter and application on a pc knocks it off my list. My neighbors eyes would surely glaze over if I tried to explain how the system works. I’ll look for something a little more basic that I can program for him. He’s a real newbie, and I want to make things simple for him.

 

[mvweebles]

Thanks Peter, I figured it was going to need a remote panel, and I thought it should be able to be programmed through that panel. Adding in the complexity of the USB adapter and application on a pc knocks it off my list. My neighbors eyes would surely glaze over if I tried to explain how the system works. I’ll look for something a little more basic that I can program for him. He’s a real newbie, and I want to make things simple for him.

Let me know what you recommend. Given what I've seen in the off-grid world, my hunch is Victron is vulnerable to competitors who are now providing native monitoring and diagnostics. Total BS that Victron requires so many adjunct devices and cables. But that's the state of the art right now.

I would have recommended Outback until a recent white paper by TwistedTree. I honestly don't know what the options are these days except for Victron. Xantrex has fallen off the development radar for a few years - they were incredibly late to the LFP party. Seems to be a common theme they a decent company gets purchased by a large holding company and innovation tech support ceases. Appears that's what happened to Magnum.

Please update on what your neighbor decides.

Peter

 

[SteveK]

Just to confirm…

- you have been hearing this for a long time, so it’s not something new? Just annoying now?

- this seems to happen regardless of load on the inverter?

- this is ONLY when operating in invert mode (no AC input) and does not happen when it does have AC input from shore or generator?

I would suggest breaking out your phone and timing the interval between these clicks. Is it always the same, or is it more random.

My theory, assuming the above understanding is correct, is that there is “phantom” voltage on the input due to cross coupling from other AC cables, and that the inverter thinks is sees good incoming AC, switches to it, and immediately discovered it’s not so good after all because it can’t support any load and disconnects. So you are hearing a rapid connect to AC then a disconnect. If the interval is regular, it further supports this theory, and will be the time it takes for the inverter to “qualify” the input power before switching to it.

Or I’m completely off base and it’s something completely different.

I wonder if Peter saw this post. It does sound plausible. If there was a bleed to inverter AC input from another source ? Could this occur if the neutral is not switched off with the hot input?

 

[mvweebles]

I wonder if Peter saw this post. It does sound plausible. If there was a bleed to inverter AC input from another source ? Could this occur if the neutral is not switched off with the hot input?

Thanks for flagging this. You are correct - I did not see TTs post due to new TF online post view shuffling. To view a thread on mobile, you have a choice of viewing the first post in the thread or the last post. Gone is the choice to pickup where you left off, the first 'new to you' post. I must have leap-frogged past TTs post without seeing it

I've never timed the click but will do so later this morning. From memory of when I've been working near the inverter, it seems very regular (every 2 mins or so) and happens regardless of whether plugged to shore power or not, regardless of load or not.

Sounds like a job for a cuppa coffee and a stopwatch. More to follow.

Thanks TT. And thanks Steve for catching this. As an aside, crickets from Magnum tech support thus far.

Peter

 

[twistedtree]

I wonder if Peter saw this post. It does sound plausible. If there was a bleed to inverter AC input from another source ? Could this occur if the neutral is not switched off with the hot input?

Possibly because something isn't wired correctly, but I was thinking of input and output wiring that is bundled together closely enough that you get coupling. I regularly see phantom voltage on certain devices, though it's never full voltage which would be needed for my theory to hold.

 

[twistedtree]

I've never timed the click but will do so later this morning. From memory of when I've been working near the inverter, it seems very regular (every 2 mins or so) and happens regardless of whether plugged to shore power or not, regardless of load or not.

Oh, so it happens when on shore power? That probably blows my theory.

Here's another, seemingly crazy possibility, but it happened to me. When at anchor, I run my generator periodically. When it would stop, I would hear a periodic click click that would go on for a few minutes then stop. I dug through schematics, tore apart cabinets, and hunted all over for the rogue relay that was clicking for some unknown reason.

Well, it turned out to be the GFCI plug on my wife's hair dryer. When power would switch from generator back to the inverter, the GFCI device would start doing this periodic click click thing for a couple of minutes. I was looking all over the walls and cabinets around the plug, but not the plug itself...

 

[mvweebles]

Oh, so it happens when on shore power? That probably blows my theory.

Here's another, seemingly crazy possibility, but it happened to me. When at anchor, I run my generator periodically. When it would stop, I would hear a periodic click click that would go on for a few minutes then stop. I dug through schematics, tore apart cabinets, and hunted all over for the rogue relay that was clicking for some unknown reason.

Well, it turned out to be the GFCI plug on my wife's hair dryer. When power would switch from generator back to the inverter, the GFCI device would start doing this periodic click click thing for a couple of minutes. I was looking all over the walls and cabinets around the plug, but not the plug itself...

Cup of coffee in hand, I seated mysefl within ear-shot of the inverter. Also see inline answers to TT's original response below -

1. Only happens when inverting. Does NOT happen when on shore power. TT's theory is still in play.

2. Interval of clicking seems to be a consistent 29-seconds.

3. Since it's still dark here, I was able to see glow from an indicator light conveniently (sarcasm) located on the bottom of the inverter, obscured by the heavy cables. When inverting, Magnum manual states this should flash 1-sec on / 1-sec off, which it does.

4. I did find one fault in the configuration that proved inconsequential. The "Search Watts" was turned off whereas factory default is 5-watts. What is "Search Watt" setting? According to the manual,

"Search Watts: This setting allows you to turn off the power-saving Search mode circuitry, or to adjust the power level at which the inverter will “wake up” and start inverting."​

My Blue Sea M2 panel-mount ammeter shows a consistent 50-watts of AC draw so well above the keep-alive 'Search Watt' setting of 5-watts.

A bit later this morning I'll perform a system reset on the inverter and see if that cures the ill.

Inline answers to TT's original response (many thanks).

Just to confirm…

- you have been hearing this for a long time, so it’s not something new? Just annoying now?Correct. It has been present since day one. I was curious about it, but it was not a problem until I ran the watermaker through it and heard the hi-pressure pump momentarily drop-out.

- this seems to happen regardless of load on the inverter?Also correct. As described above, I currently have 0.5A (120VAC) running through inverter and clicking is the same.

- this is ONLY when operating in invert mode (no AC input) and does not happen when it does have AC input from shore or generator? Also correct. No clicking when on shore power, clicking on inverter mode. I cannot speak to Generator power but assume it's the same as shore power. NOTE - my panel has three source breakers with slide-lockouts so I can only run one AC source to panel.

I would suggest breaking out your phone and timing the interval between these clicks. Is it always the same, or is it more random. Always the same - 29-seconds.

My theory, assuming the above understanding is correct, is that there is “phantom” voltage on the input due to cross coupling from other AC cables, and that the inverter thinks is sees good incoming AC, switches to it, and immediately discovered it’s not so good after all because it can’t support any load and disconnects. So you are hearing a rapid connect to AC then a disconnect. If the interval is regular, it further supports this theory, and will be the time it takes for the inverter to “qualify” the input power before switching to it. Not sure I understand this. To my reading, this suggests the inverter turns ON momentarily, then shuts-down for 29-seconds. The opposite is happening - turns on for 29-seconds, then turns off momentarily when the clicking is heard. Chances are I'm missing soething though. Thoughts? .

Or I’m completely off base and it’s something completely different.

 

[Bmarler]

I disable the search setting on my inverter, just leave it on 24/7. If I want to disable it overnight for some reason, it’s just one button to push.

 

[sunchaser]

Gave up on my Magnum Charger/Inverter. Help from the manufacturer is poor and parts availability is horrible. Switched to Victron and happy again.

This issue may be associated with things not specific to the inverter. Some basic trouble shooting steps have been suggested to isolate the issues.