Mission Beach Dive. Unsafe piloting.

[Hickers]

The skipper of Mission Beach Dive on the afternoon of (23/7/2016) risked life limb and property damage by entering Brammo Bay, Dunk Island at excessive speed which resulted in the three cruiser boats anchored in the bay rolling violently from the resulting wake. One of the anchored boats was midway through recovering its tender and only good luck prevented any injury. Photos were taken and a report will be made to the authorities.

Professional skippers take care to be aware of the impact they have on others.



Hickers
Clipper 45
No Fixed Address

 

[GFC]

Is that the boat you said was moving too fast and throwing a huge wake?


Sorry, but it appears to me that the boat is moving at hull speed. There's no big bow wave and I don't see the formation of a large wake off the stern.


The timing might have been bad for the cruiser that was recovering his tender, but that's the chances you take.


Unless there are other pics showing that boat throwing up a large wake, or unless your OZ laws are much different from ours, I'm not seeing a problem with that boat or his wake.

 

[GFC]

By way of a PS to my post above, 106 people have looked at this thread and nobody jumped in and agreed with you, or, for that matter, nobody disagreed with you.


Might be they didn't see the problem either.


Anyone's thoughts on this?

 

[BruceK]

Of course the pic shows moderate speed. I assumed it is a pic of the offending boat not depicting its excessive speed arrival as related by Hickers.

 

[Hickers]

I was to busy hanging on when it sped past to take photos so this one is of his boat afterwards. Been boating for over 40 years and never seen someone as ignorant as this bloke nor would I complain about a wash from an ignorant skipper, that's part of being in a popular spot, this bloke put others in danger which is why his boat and behavior is being publicized.

 

[dhays]

I was to busy hanging on when it sped past to take photos so this one is of his boat afterwards. Been boating for over 40 years and never seen someone as ignorant as this bloke nor would I complain about a wash from an ignorant skipper, that's part of being in a popular spot, this bloke put others in danger which is why his boat and behavior is being publicized.

Good for you. I have little tolerance for wakes. Maybe it is the rag boater in me. So far on this trip I have had 6 boats throwing God awfully huge wakes, pass within a couple of boat lengths of me . This is waters that are about as open as they come with lots of room. As you said, professional skippers should know better since it took more than a fat checkbook to put them at the helm.

 

[FlyWright]

Why not contact the operator directly? Is public shaming the best way to handle this? I understand that you're upset, but why here?

 

[BandB]

Why not contact the operator directly? Is public shaming the best way to handle this? I understand that you're upset, but why here?

Yes, what does he expect us to do? Stand up and scream outrageous or blacklist the company? None of us were there to know the circumstances and I'm not going to jump on a bandwagon over one incident that I have no direct knowledge of or confirmation of from others. It might be just as he described and as out of line, but it's not a battle that I can take up on his behalf. I'm just not a fan of public shaming especially when it is generally based on just one side of the story.

 

[Simi 60]

This is a better spot for public shaming.
At least you should get a response.
Have at it.
https://www.facebook.com/MissionBeachDive/

 

[BruceK]

First GFC`s dismissive posts, easily answered, implying Hickers was talking rubbish. Now this.
Why not here? Who says Hickers expects you to do anything?
Aussies, especially those who boat in FNQ have the right and interest to know. If you don`t like it, don`t read it don`t comment don`t post.

 

[Jetstream]

Hickers sorry to hear about this skipper being an idiot. This seems to be almost the norm with private boaties these days but you expect more from a professional master. I'd contact the operator as they may not know what the master is doing. Very envious of you being at Dunk Island though. That is just magic country around there,

Brett

 

[psneeld]

Just like some suggest a securite for the same action, others say a securite call is a waste of time.

If posting it here made him feel good.....

Compared to some stuff posted here....I feel it is appropriate.

 

[Capt. Jon]

This is a better spot for public shaming.
At least you should get a response.
Have at it.
https://www.facebook.com/MissionBeachDive/

Problem with a commercial Facebook page is anything that gets posted they control and can remove if they so wish. Therefore not much of a public shaming possible on Facebook.

 

[dhays]

It seems to me the OP is simply describing a boating experience. Why not post it here? He also said that he was filing a complaint. I did not get the impression that his intent was public shaming since the operators and likely customers wouldn't see it here anyway.

 

[BandB]

It seems to me the OP is simply describing a boating experience. Why not post it here? He also said that he was filing a complaint. I did not get the impression that his intent was public shaming since the operators and likely customers wouldn't see it here anyway.

If just wanting to vent, then this is the place, although describing the experience can be done without naming names. Still all quite permissible. However, it is my opinion, if he wants to change anything or address the issue there is a better way, going to the top level of management of the company involved. That management is not likely to ever know of the post or problem by the post here.

Addition: If you want the complaint to reach the company's potential customers, I'd suggest YELP or Google Reviews or Trip Advisor. Depending on the company, they might also get you a response or apology.

 

[Ski in NC]

At least in the States, there are many areas where you can anchor with marine traffic coming and going nearby. The marine traffic is under no obligation to alter their speed for moored boats unless there is an obvious risk. It is up to those being moored to have their rigs prepared for normal conditions, including wakes.

If it was a legal no-wake zone, then operator should get pinged.

 

[dhays]

At least in the States, there are many areas where you can anchor with marine traffic coming and going nearby. The marine traffic is under no obligation to alter their speed for moored boats unless there is an obvious risk. It is up to those being moored to have their rigs prepared for normal conditions, including wakes.

Here in WA, state law makes it unlawful to operate a boat in an unsafe manner. The state publications make it clear that having a wake that causes personal injury or damage to a vessel is operating it in an unsafe manner. The state is also clear that boaters are open to civil liability.

So how does this work? Say you are cruising down the middle of the narrows in Puget sound and do a close pass of a 12' skiff with a couple guys fishing. If your monstrous wake causes one of them to loose their balance and injure themselves you could be held liable. It is also against the law to have an unreasonable wake that damages the shoreline. Other states may have different rules, but no boater should make a close pass of another vessel while leaving a large wake.

In recognized shipping lanes it is a bit different since it is recognized that the commercial vessels have limited maneuverability and the traffic lanes are to be clear of non-commercial vessels.

 

[psneeld]

The state laws are weak at best when they say you are always responsible...there's always that chance that a wake can cause damage....even at unreasonable distances.

Because bad wakes happen a lot here on the East Coast in the summertime, and there aren't a proportionate number of court cases or lawsuits that are reported , my guess good seamanship is required for both parties.

 

[BandB]

I hear these arguments and while I support safe operations and avoiding putting others at risk, I also read constantly of laws that either don't exist or I've never seen. The WA Boating publication is mentioned so I'll quote it exactly:

The wake created by a boat may endanger inexperienced boaters, persons swimming, or wading anglers. For example, a boat's wake may rock, swamp, or capsize other boats. Passengers also may be thrown off balance or overboard, leading to serious injury.

No matter how large or small your wake, you may be held responsible for any damage or personal injury it causes. To avoid the expense of repairing another person's boat or paying their medical bills, limit your wake by slowing down.​

It doesn't indicate any criminal aspect, just civil. Also, it uses the word "may" as in a court determining who was responsible or how that responsibility should be allocated.

In most circumstances the key word is "reasonable" and the opinion as to what is reasonable varies widely. I've observed many incidents my entire boating life in which two parties had very divergent opinions on the subject. If your wake leads to damage, you are not automatically guilty of anything. The reasonableness of where you were, how you were operating and the nature of the damaged property and it's location. I live just off the ICW and I am not only not in a no-wake zone, I am very close to a water skiing and personal watercraft area. If my dock gets damaged by their wake, then that's strictly my problem. Same if my boat docked at my dock. I have to be reasonable as well and the expectation is there will be wakes. If you're in a no wake zone, then that's far different. We even have two different levels of zones. Yellow is slow speed, minimum wake. Orange is Idle speed, no wake.

I don't know the circumstances leading to this thread so have no opinion as to the activity. I've been near Ferry routes and learned long ago to anticipate large wakes from most of them. On the other hand, I've been in clearly marked no wake zones and a wakeboard boat go by and rock me unbelievably. Actually one of the worst situations is those who see the no wake zone so pull back at the last minute and their wash from doing so is huge.

The reality is that we all have responsibility in trying to avoid damage or risk to lives. Those of us cruising and those of us anchored or docked. The determining factor when no specific law is in place is the determination of what is "reasonable." However, most truly responsible boaters go a step beyond what might be reasonably required out of respect for others and a desire to avoid problems.

 

[dhays]

BandB, there are other references where fines are mentioned. I believe it is on the order of $375 per infraction.

The biggest problem of course is defining what reasonable is. A close pass with a large wake in large body of water is not reasonable. Beyond that it gets tricky. Common sense and common courtesy always are better than legislation.

 

[Ski in NC]

Handling a dink with a crane on a moored boat is a tricky process. If boat takes a roll, it can set the dink into some really wild motion. The correct way is to restrain it during the lift using tag lines both fore and aft. If that was not done, the one in control of the lift exposed the process to risk. If there were not enough personnel to manage the lift, it should not have been attempted.

If dive boat saw the lift in process and charged on anyway, that is not good. If the lift was going on out of view of the dive boat, its operator would have no idea that there was lift going on.

 

[BandB]

BandB, there are other references where fines are mentioned. I believe it is on the order of $375 per infraction.

The biggest problem of course is defining what reasonable is. A close pass with a large wake in large body of water is not reasonable. Beyond that it gets tricky. Common sense and common courtesy always are better than legislation.

That's what I was searching for but couldn't find, and agree that the key is common sense. Also, it's tolerance and respect for others.

 

[78puget-trawler]

Anyone ever tie to the float at Orcas Landing on Orcas Is, WA, right next to the ferry terminal? The boats transiting nearby pay ZERO attention to boats tied to that float, nor should they have to. Its big water there but the boats on that float take a real pounding. I doubt anyone stays there any longer than to run up to the store or drop someone off for the ferry. I always slow down when entering an anchorage and agree that those that don't are jerks, but probably the best thing to do is hail them and tell them to slow down a bit if throwing a big wake. Just today in LaConner, on the transit float, I was walking out the dock to look at an old Monk cruiser when this large yacht came charging up the Channel fairly close to the dock where boats are tied and he did have a large bow wave. Most do the Channel at reasonable speed, and it is a low wake area.

 

[dhays]

That is one nice thing about having a boat that throws very little wake. Going through the Swinomish, I kept looking behind me to be sure that my wake didn't cause any motion at all of the boat tied up to the docks in La Conner. My boat travels at 6 knots without a wake.

 

[BruceK]

It may yet transpire the Dive boat at Mission Beach was dealing with an emergency, perhaps medical. Barring that or something similar, the behavior was not acceptable. That includes responsibility for the difficulties caused with dinghy retrieval, whether they saw it or not, the misconduct was the immediate cause of trouble.
I`m interested to hear any response from the boat.

 

[Jetstream]

There is a lot of talk on this thread about the legality of making a large wake and a lot of the time that is the case with posted speed limits being exceeded but what ever happened to common courtesy? If someone is anchored in a sheltered bay as is the case at Dunk Island I would have thought it was common sense and courtesy to slow down and make a minimal wake if your passing so close that is may have an undue effect on the moored boats. It seems like many people these days don't care what affect their conduct has on others,

Brett

 

[Tidahapah]

Brett,
You are dead right , but you only have to spend a weekend down the Broadwater and experience the wash effect of all the Sport Cruiser/ Sandshoe drivers to realize that none of them give a f**k about anybody else or their particular position in the cruising stream.
One really does expect more from the so called professional skippers but most of the Class 3 and 4 drivers really have no idea.

 

[Donsan]

There is a lot of talk on this thread about the legality of making a large wake and a lot of the time that is the case with posted speed limits being exceeded but what ever happened to common courtesy? If someone is anchored in a sheltered bay as is the case at Dunk Island I would have thought it was common sense and courtesy to slow down and make a minimal wake if your passing so close that is may have an undue effect on the moored boats. It seems like many people these days don't care what affect their conduct has on others.

Sounds like Australia is the same as this country. We always try to practice common courtesy but is seems a large percentage of the boaters we encounter on the water do not and have no conscience about it whatsoever. People buy go fast boats to do just that and they do not want to be inconvenienced to have to practice common courtesy. We see the same attitudes on the highways. As practical matter, society does not have the resources or the will to enforce the laws on the books. It is just sad more people don't put themselves in the shoes of the other guy.

 

[psneeld]

In heavily travelled waterways, such as the US Atlantic ICW, there are two sides of the coin.

Because locals feel it's their water to fish, kayak, swim, etc..etc....it is in conflict often with people who are using it as the boating super-highway.

I boat both sides of the coin....but lean towards the two sided courtesy coin of let the big fast guys use the super-highway. If I want peace and quiet with calm water, I go elsewhere. And along the NJ ICW, that's not always easy, but I feel is the fair thing to do. The big guys don't have much of a choice and thinking they are gonna slow down all the time, then the whole ICW should be slow speed, no wake...which it isnt.

Courtesy can be a 2 way street, can be hard to assign which side is in the right or not.

 

[BandB]

go fast boats ... . It is just sad more people don't put themselves in the shoes of the other guy.

Well, I don't know what you term a go fast boat. Our fastest cruises around 35 knots and that doesn't fit our definition of go fast. However, it's a two way street of putting oneself in the shoes of the other guy. The person anchoring needs to consider the area, the traffic, the wake to be expected as well. Plus sometimes those anchoring automatically associate speed with wake. At 35 knots you will not be disturbed by our wake. If we run at 15 knots, you definitely will be.

I'm not speaking as to the OP's example at all as I don't know the area or what happened. I'm just talking in general terms. If you're going to anchor, you know high traffic areas versus those with more natural protection or those with no wake zones. I see people get irate at marinas when it's obvious the transient dock is very exposed to heavy traffic and to the tour boats. It's mentioned by many on Active Captain. The marina needs, but doesn't have, a breakwall. Is it annoying to be bounced around? Only if you let it annoy you. And the Ferry is going to pull out at 5:00 AM tomorrow just as it did today and pay no attention to you.

We're all trying to share. It takes common sense, courtesy and thought and it still won't be perfect. Best to be prepared for the worst case. If you're about to pass through an area where many boats are anchored probably too close to the primary traffic lane, still anticipate and try to avoid waking them too bad. If you're anchoring, don't anchor in an area where you know boats are going to wake you or don't act surprised when they do.

Everyone who thinks wakes are bad on the ICW or in certain harbors needs to go spend one summer Sunday afternoon on a 20 or 30 mile long lake in a 1 or 2 million population metropolitan area. You will be rocked from every direction, all at the same time, if you choose to be out there. Worst is the wakeboarding boat. They are designed to create large wakes.

Like most areas of conflict, there are always two sides and the other person may think they're 100% right as well. I think of us all having shared responsibility.