Mobius XPM for sale

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cardude01

Guru
Joined
Nov 26, 2012
Messages
5,290
Location
USA
Vessel Name
Bijou
Vessel Make
2008 Island Packet PY/SP
Don’t know if any here have followed the build of this boat over the last few years in Turkey. It a very interesting and well engineered boat IMO, but it appears a health issue might force them to sell it before they get to really use it as intended.

They fairly recently crossed the Atlantic after the build in Turkey, and after ironing out lots of issues with the Gardner main engine.

https://mobius.world/as-waynes-world-spins-mbius-world-turns-upside-down/
 
Truly unfortunate that so much time & effort went into building the "perfect for them" boat and their use of it has to be cut short.
I followed the build and their travels...looks like NO shortcuts were taken
 
I don’t believe the sale price will be low enough for my comfort zone but I bet it will be a steal considering the amount of effort that went into building that boat.
 
Very sorry to hear it, but I wouldn't fret over the effort that went into Mobius. I'm pretty sure that Wayne and Christine greatly enjoyed that whole time - well, at least most of it. It's all part of the adventure. I do wish they could spend more time using the boat.
 
For me, learning that boat might be more intimidating than paying for it. It’s a dream boat beyond the boat I dream of, but the Gardner….yeah, that’s in the boat I dream of.
 
Sent you a comment on your site. Hope you explore possible interventions to make your condition more manageable. Unfortunately know what it’s like you give up a boat due to unforeseen events. Spent over a year investigating and spec’ing my “last boat”. Then waiting out the build. We did get to cruise and do passage but the admiral fell off her. Her fractures healed but her balance was just enough off to be unsafe on the foredeck when it’s bumpy. So she’s more important than a boat and the only boat had had built to my specs was sold.

Hopefully mobius is one of many of your dreams. It’s the journey not the destination. Enjoy the memories. All the best for your future.
 
For those interested this style boat, I'm curious how you feel about two of the equipment decisions that were a good fit for Wayne and Christine, but otherwise a bit unusual. They are:


Gardner engine. To me the issue isn't the engine per-se, but the limitations it creates on where you can flag it given US, EU and other emissions requirements. Would you be OK with the flag state restrictions, or is it something you think you could get past importation and flag anyway?


No stabilizers. From the drawings it looks like they left space, but I'm not sure where everything ended up as-built and what would be involved it a a retrofit.


Thoughts?
 
I thought they installed paravanes? Maybe I’m wrong.

Educate me on the emissions thing. Can they not travel to certain countries that have stricter emissions standards?
 
Yes, they built their own paravane system for that boat.
 
Yes, they built their own paravane system for that boat.


That's my understanding too. Just wondering if that will be acceptable to a broader market vs fins or a gyro.


The emission thing I don't believe is about where you travel to, but it is about where you can import/register the boat. A US boat requires engines that meet the emissions standards at the time the boat was built. I believe the EU is the same way, and probably other countries too. So I don't think you can import a new boat with non-compliant engine. Now will anyone check? I have no idea. But I believe technically it's a no-go, and I believe means the boat can only be registered in a country without emissions requirements. For some that would be fine. For others, not so much.
 
Ah ok. Thanks for the explanation on the emissions.

It’s definitely a different kind of boat. Very “high tech” in some respects with all the electronics, displays, batteries running the entire boat (no generator I think?), etc. Then it has the old school paravanes and the Gardner engine.

I think the reasoning on the Gardner and paravanes was to keep things as simple as possible so when at far flung locations they could fix everything themselves. But the complex (to me) electronic setup seems to counteract the simplicity? Maybe it just seems complex to me. Maybe I’m turning into a Luddite.
 
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Ah ok. Thanks for the explanation on the emissions.

It’s definitely a different kind of boat. Very “high tech” in some respects with all the electronics, displays, batteries running the entire boat (no generator I think?), etc. Then it has the old school paravanes and the Gardner engine.

I think the reasoning on the Gardner and paravanes was to keep things as simple as possible so when at far flung locations they could fix everything themselves. But the complex (to me) electronic setup seems to counteract the simplicity? Maybe it just seems complex to me. Maybe I’m turning into a Luddite.


For the kind of cruising that boat was built for, it's not just a matter of simple vs complex. It's more a matter of what you can fix, band-aid, bypass, or work around while out in the middle of nowhere vs things that would leave you screwed if you couldn't get a part or possibly a tech.
 
For those interested this style boat, I'm curious how you feel about two of the equipment decisions that were a good fit for Wayne and Christine, but otherwise a bit unusual. They are:


Gardner engine. To me the issue isn't the engine per-se, but the limitations it creates on where you can flag it given US, EU and other emissions requirements. Would you be OK with the flag state restrictions, or is it something you think you could get past importation and flag anyway?


No stabilizers. From the drawings it looks like they left space, but I'm not sure where everything ended up as-built and what would be involved it a a retrofit.


Thoughts?

What would the cost be to change?

I haven't followed the build closely, but didn't they send the engine back for service at some point? That implies a swap to a modern engine might be entirely feasible.

Ditto on the stabilizers. It seems to me both can be changed at moderate cost relative to the sale price.

I wouldn't want the Gardner.

Sent from my moto g play (2021) using Trawler Forum mobile app
 
Flag the vessel in one of the popular countries like BVIs, Caymans or even Turkey and the engine emissions issues may well disappear. I’d guess England is OK too.

Where is vessel flagged now?
 
Where is vessel flagged now?

In keeping with the consensus on the other thread probably at the stern.
Sorry couldn't help it.
In the scheme of things swapping the Gardner would be pretty minor and may well add value
 
Simple, pull the motor and import without it, ship the gardner is as a like replacement for another boat. I would love to own that engine.. its a masterpiece.
Hollywood
 
Simple, pull the motor and import without it, ship the gardner is as a like replacement for another boat. I would love to own that engine.. its a masterpiece.
Hollywood


Interesting work around.


I agree that both things (stabilizers and engine) can be changed/retrofit. It's just a matter of $$.


Assuming the hull really is totally prepped for stabilizers, I would guess it's a $75k to $100k retrofit. I think the boat is all electric (thrusters, windless, etc), so some sort of electric stabilizers might be a good choice.


I don't recall what the power rating is for the Garner, so not sure what size engine would be a suitable replacement. The engine "package" (engine, gear, mounts, coolers) for my boat was $100k. That's for 13 liters and 400hp continuous duty. The cost was the same for Scania, Deere, or Cummins. That's probably a bigger engine than required since the XMP is so much lighter. I'd guess a 6-9 liter producing 250-300hp continuous duty would be fine, and less expensive for engine and gear. And perhaps the existing gear can be used.


Personally I'd budget $250k for both.
 
Flag the vessel in one of the popular countries like BVIs, Caymans or even Turkey and the engine emissions issues may well disappear. I’d guess England is OK too.

Where is vessel flagged now?


Yes, that's how it's done now, and is totally viable if operating as a foreign flagged vessel suits you plans. In the US that means an annual cruising permit, reporting all your movements (some exceptions in some places), and leaving the country annually to renew the cruising permit. If you are in the PNW, that might be trivial with Canada so close. It's also pretty easy for people in the US Southeast who just go to the Bahamas for a couple of weeks. But from other locations it might not be so easy. It just needs to all be considered.
 
Simple, pull the motor and import without it, ship the gardner is as a like replacement for another boat. I would love to own that engine.. its a masterpiece.
Hollywood

I did just that with a motorcycle. Any motor vehicle has emissions and many safety regulations involved, nearly impossible to import. I had it disassembled and imported it as "motorcycle parts". Then reassembled and registered at the DMV. The DMV does not check any of this stuff, they depend on customs to do that. I'm not sure of the legality, it is a bit like homebuilding a motor vehicle and might be entirely legal.

I know that Mercedes was doing this on their Metro van. You can't import assembled trucks in that class (or there is very high duty), so they were taking the drivetrains out of fully assembled and tested vans in Spain, shipping them to Kentucky separately, and putting them back in. This was allowed.

I think it would work just as well on a boat. I appreciate the cult attraction of the Gardener, but I'd think parts availability in a remote port would be better for Volvo, Yanmar, Cummins, Deere, or just about anything else. Once it was out I'd put something else back in.
 
I’m not sure the TF experts have the Gardner diesel chops to condemn it. In the right hands that engine is easy enough to maintain and trouble shoot.

Möbius will find a home quite possibly because it has a “new” Gardner. Don’t forget the various TF threads over the years where an electronic engine has created issues. Scot is getting ready with his Gardner to take his Beebe on a very long journey, longer than 99% + of us have ever done.

So I say applaud the very seasoned owners of Mobious for what they’ve achieved and the extreme skill they’ve shown in bringing their dream to reality.
 
I appreciate the cult attraction of the Gardener, but I'd think parts availability in a remote port would be better for Volvo, Yanmar, Cummins, Deere, or just about anything else. Once it was out I'd put something else back in.

Me too. I'm not anti Gardner at all. I used to own an even more obscure old school English diesel, a Ruston Hornsby. That was a standby generator on our dairy farm. I grew up working on Nuffields. Now I sell Cummins and Weichai.
The reality is there are few places to get a Gardner serviced. That could be important to a future buyer. It would be to me.
 
I didn't mean for this to be anti-Gardner. Wayne and Christine did a great job with all the design decisions on Mobius, and made choices that were the best for their use. But the choice of a non-current engine has the side effect of making the boat non-compliant with US and EU emissions. It's just that piece, and how people would view/deal with it that I'm asking about.
 
I’m not sure the TF experts have the Gardner diesel chops to condemn it. In the right hands that engine is easy enough to maintain and trouble shoot.

Möbius will find a home quite possibly because it has a “new” Gardner. Don’t forget the various TF threads over the years where an electronic engine has created issues. Scot is getting ready with his Gardner to take his Beebe on a very long journey, longer than 99% + of us have ever done.

So I say applaud the very seasoned owners of Mobious for what they’ve achieved and the extreme skill they’ve shown in bringing their dream to reality.

Think I agree with this post. Much wisdom. Believe spec’ing a boat depends on several factors
Intended use profile.
Skill set and physical ability of owner(s) and crew
Region of use
Available funds

Many of the above posts reflect the ownership and use experience of the posters. That is different for each one of us. Any boat is a comprise. None are prefect for doing everything. There’s a trade off between having a mechanical naturally aspirated engine and the current crop of common rail with one or more electronic modules, multiple heat exchangers and less tolerance to fuel quality. Same with single v twin, dry stack v wet exhaust. Same with active stabilization (fins, gyro, Magnus) v passive (fish). Unfortunately there’s no universal “right” choice. Even the “best” choice depends upon human factors than are defined by owner and crew.

Möbius as she stands without any further modifications is a great boat and the perfect boat for someone with a similar background and similar plans as the current owners. Possible new owners due to their experience, biases from that experience or future plans may choose to do modifications. But that in no way should detract from the thought and execution that went into this vessel.

Hope the current owners are able to recover as much of their investment in time, thought and money when she sells. Hope new owners use her to her capabilities. In the past I’ve refused to sell prior boats to certain prospective owners thinking they would not use her to her intended purpose or would missuse her. Most of us have an emotional attachment to our boats. I’m sure that’s the case here. I still miss my last boat greatly and think of her often. I have nothing but respect for the strength displayed here where an owner as been forced to meet a hard decision to sell as he is now unsafe to continue his dream.
 
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Very interesting series of events. Not even in my league in my dreams. Does anyone have an idea of the asking price, got to be a lot !!

pete
 
I note in the Mobious blog that she’s cruised over 8,200 nm since commissioning. Pretty impressive vs distance cruised by the rest of us; delivery skippers, Kevin and AKDoug excepted.
 
Sad to see a dream end or get derailed. Wayne and I corresponded some early on when we first purchased Muirgen. Mobius has a 6 cyl Gardner, and Muirgen has the 8LXB. It's been chugging along for 42 years since installed new when our boat was built. The 6LXB would have served just fine in our boat.

An early concern we had was availability of parts. I spoke several times with Mike at Gardner in the UK. He asked me for a list of parts that I was potentially concerned about. I came up with a list including injectors, rings, valves, gaskets, etc. He had everything available for immediate shipment. Plus he stated that for many parts they should be locally available in the US, or British Columbia.

The boat came with a lot of spares such as injectors, filters, etc when we purchased her. All the filters are readily available, either through Gardner, or aftermarket. From my understanding about the only parts that are not made any longer are crankshafts, and the block.

Since we are a single engine boat, we wanted a spare starter for the Gardner. We recently purchased one through Barry at DFI Automotive in Lancashire, UK for $771.00 usd including shipping, duty, and core charge (since it was a spare I wasn't returning a core). He was a pleasure to work with. The starter arrived from England in 12 days, perfectly packaged.

As many know, marine applications are not the only use for Gardners. They are commonly used in lorries, prime power generators, pumps, etc. Parts, except for marine specific parts are readily available from non-marine sources. The original starter is still going strong, and Mike at Gardner's response to me when I inquired about purchasing a spare was, "It's only 42 years old, why would you think you need a new starter?":D

In some respects, our boat really didn't need the 8LXB. On our trip to Alaska last year, cruising 3,100 nm at 7.5 to 8 kts in a 90,000 lb boat, fully loaded (at the start of the trip). Including running the hydraulic pump to run the 12kw generator we used a little less than 3 gph over that 3,100 nm. We didn't refuel on the trip, and still had over 400 gallon left when we got back. Try THAT with a "modern" engine!:whistling:

As Peter mentioned earlier we are leaving the PNW the end of August enroute to Sea of Cortez, and then eventually crossing over to the East Coast of the US. From there, who knows? We're retired!:dance: The Gardner, and and drive train in our boat is way down the list of concerns for the trip. I'm more concerned as to whether we have enough kitty litter on board!:lol:

Question for those more knowledgeable than I:
Would the United States import restrictions still apply for a boat that is now "used" and which would be under new ownership as long as the boat was in compliance in the host nation (Turkey) when it was built?:popcorn:
 
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Sad to see a dream end or get derailed. Wayne and I corresponded some early on when we first purchased Muirgen. Mobius has a 6 cyl Gardner, and Muirgen has the 8LXB. It's been chugging along for 42 years since installed new when our boat was built. The 6LXB would have served just fine in our boat.

An early concern we had was availability of parts. I spoke several times with Mike at Gardner in the UK. He asked me for a list of parts that I was potentially concerned about. I came up with a list including injectors, rings, valves, gaskets, etc. He had everything available for immediate shipment. Plus he stated that for many parts they should be locally available in the US, or British Columbia.

The boat came with a lot of spares such as injectors, filters, etc when we purchased her. All the filters are readily available, either through Gardner, or aftermarket. From my understanding about the only parts that are not made any longer are crankshafts, and the block.

Since we are a single engine boat, we wanted a spare starter for the Gardner. We recently purchased one through Barry at DFI Automotive in Lancashire, UK for $771.00 usd including shipping, duty, and core charge (since it was a spare I wasn't returning a core). He was a pleasure to work with. The starter arrived from England in 12 days, perfectly packaged.

As many know, marine applications are not the only use for Gardners. They are commonly used in lorries, prime power generators, pumps, etc. Parts, except for marine specific parts are readily available from non-marine sources. The original starter is still going strong, and Mike at Gardner's response to me when I inquired about purchasing a spare was, "It's only 42 years old, why would you think you need a new starter?":D

In some respects, our boat really didn't need the 8LXB. On our trip to Alaska last year, cruising 3,100 nm at 7.5 to 8 kts in a 90,000 lb boat, fully loaded (at the start of the trip). Including running the hydraulic pump to run the 12kw generator we used a little less than 3 gph over that 3,100 nm. We didn't refuel on the trip, and still had over 400 gallon left when we got back. Try THAT with a "modern" engine!:whistling:

As Peter mentioned earlier we are leaving the PNW the end of August enroute to Sea of Cortez, and then eventually crossing over to the East Coast of the US. From there, who knows? We're retired!:dance: The Gardner, and and drive train in our boat is way down the list of concerns for the trip. I'm more concerned as to whether we have enough kitty litter on board!:lol:

Question for those more knowledgeable than I:
Would the United States import restrictions still apply for a boat that is now "used" and which would be under new ownership as long as the boat was in compliance in the host nation (Turkey) when it was built?:popcorn:


Great post from an actual Gardner owner.
Those motors are beasts but yet bullet proof and sip fuel. Not a wonder those were the engines for use in the Brit double decker busses
HW
 
Anybody know what the NOx emissions are on the Gardner vs 2020 engines sold in EU/NA? Does anybody care beyond me?

Sent from my moto g play (2021) using Trawler Forum mobile app
 
Fuel wise, the Gardners are quite efficient. The better modern stuff is pretty comparable at this point though.
 
Sent you a comment on your site. Hope you explore possible interventions to make your condition more manageable. Unfortunately know what it’s like you give up a boat due to unforeseen events. Spent over a year investigating and spec’ing my “last boat”. Then waiting out the build. We did get to cruise and do passage but the admiral fell off her. Her fractures healed but her balance was just enough off to be unsafe on the foredeck when it’s bumpy. So she’s more important than a boat and the only boat had had built to my specs was sold.

Hopefully mobius is one of many of your dreams. It’s the journey not the destination. Enjoy the memories. All the best for your future.

Yest, thanks, received your very expert advise and recommendations which I will be following up on. Unfortunately my situation is a bit similar to your wife's in that the damage to my previously compromised vertebrae from the several falls on deck while underway is the bigger problem that I will need to deal with more in the near future. It certainly wasn't easy but the combination of the greater danger for me and the greater stress for Christine has made the decision to end our life at sea and transition to exploring the world from shore clearly the best for us.

Yet our adventurous spirits and nomadic tendencies remain unchanged so we will start making that transition as soon as we can find the just right new owners to take over where we are leaving off and we can begin our new adventures ashore.

Thanks again for sharing your very expert advise and recommendations and for your best wishes on our next round of adventures.

Wayne
 
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