Monk 36 Rudder
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Welcome! What year is your Monk? They have a long production run as I have learned so things can change from decade to decade. 
Define "oversized"? Here is a pic of our Monk 36 rudder- taken late this summer....pretty sure you can tell which ones were taken prior to the new bottom paint job we just had done!! *
We love our Monk- we have hull #30, model year 1983 so one of the older ones. *There are several other Monk 36 owners on here...I am sure they will chime in soon.
Define "oversized"? Here is a pic of our Monk 36 rudder- taken late this summer....pretty sure you can tell which ones were taken prior to the new bottom paint job we just had done!! *We love our Monk- we have hull #30, model year 1983 so one of the older ones. *There are several other Monk 36 owners on here...I am sure they will chime in soon.
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markpierce
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If over-sized, that's a good positive thing.* Bigger the better.
windmist
Guru
I went another route to get a good performing rudder. I had an articulating rudder built for my new Mariner Seville PH trawler.* It's really fun to go nose into the dock with *the rudder hard over and give it a short blast of forward thottle.* The stern moves right up against the dock as if I had a stern thruster.* See attachments: (I hope)
Also, this is the web page for the builder:
http://bayviewengineeringind.com/
Ron
Also, this is the web page for the builder:
http://bayviewengineeringind.com/
Ron
RickB
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*If you are fond of drag and your stock and bearing can withstand the forces generated by an oversize rudder go for it.
markpierce
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*If you are fond of drag and your stock and bearing can withstand the forces generated by an oversize rudder go for it.
I'd rather think in terms of*better steering control at low speeds.* Besides, it is difficult to create high G-forces going 7 knots.
*
RickB
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***************** *
markpierce
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RickB wrote:
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*
RickB
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markpierce wrote:****** *
*That's kind of what I thought ...
The subject is the size of boat rudders. The loads imposed on the stock of a trawler rudder are created by anything*except G loads. **
"Bigger the better" is complete nonsense for many reasons but*G forces are not among them.
* Except for the thrust bearing at the top that takes the weight of the assembly and will "see" slightly higher and lower vertical loads created by pitching of the hull in high seas.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Mark,
In big following seas you can be surfing on a big one with your helm hard over and then before you capsize you go WOT. Can you visualize some rudder forces? When I'm close to that (hardly ever smash the throttle) I think about my big rudder and hope it holds on.
See my picture and notice how beefy the keel shoe is. I don't think they wasted thier time mak'in it that strong.
In big following seas you can be surfing on a big one with your helm hard over and then before you capsize you go WOT. Can you visualize some rudder forces? When I'm close to that (hardly ever smash the throttle) I think about my big rudder and hope it holds on.
See my picture and notice how beefy the keel shoe is. I don't think they wasted thier time mak'in it that strong.
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Nomad Willy
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Windmist,
I like your rudder and think it may be a very good option for most trawlers. My rudder works so well (cause the boats so short and the rudder's so big) that I'd rather have a bow thruster but don't feel a strong enough need to spend the time and money. Don't like that gaping hole in the bow either.
I like your rudder and think it may be a very good option for most trawlers. My rudder works so well (cause the boats so short and the rudder's so big) that I'd rather have a bow thruster but don't feel a strong enough need to spend the time and money. Don't like that gaping hole in the bow either.
Steve
Guru
Several Monk owners have made modifications (inceased the size or added features to make it more" aerodynamic") to the rudder to make it more aggressive.
I haven't really noticed a need for that but some folks obviously do.
On mine, Hull #230, the number of turns of the wheel from lock to lock can be varied turning a knob under the wheel. This might be something want to try if you have that feature.
I am sending a private message to your profile page
Steve
I haven't really noticed a need for that but some folks obviously do.
On mine, Hull #230, the number of turns of the wheel from lock to lock can be varied turning a knob under the wheel. This might be something want to try if you have that feature.
I am sending a private message to your profile page
Steve
markpierce
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RickB wrote:
markpierce wrote:****** *
*That's kind of what I thought ...
The subject is the size of boat rudders. ....
Your aviation avatar affected my subconscious, so*I was thinking about tight turns and the effect on the human body rather than stresses on the rudder.
Hopefully the boat designer takes into consideration the size of the rudder when determining its construction*as well as*the*fittings/mechanisms controlling.
*
markpierce
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But if the rudder isn't big enough to control the boat, you are likely to broach.* Many times I've had the tiller pulled tight to my gut to keep control.* And it always helped to anticipate the wave to begin rudder adjustment just as the wave forces started.*
*
markpierce
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Eric, I like*Nomadwilly's big rudder.** I appreciate boat designs that support the rudder from both top and bottom.
Phil Fill
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It*did not*occurred to me to increase the rudder size just increase the angle and/or how it catches the water
I have look and talk to Bayview about the Actuating rudder several times as they are at the Seattle Boat show and read a couple of articles.* I am not quite a believer as the actuating rudder is another piece of running gear to take care of and can get fouled.* Does the Actuating Rudder help reduce the reverse prop walk?
It seems if you increased the actuator length by adding in a small link/piece would increase the rudders turning angle it might shorten the turning distance and/or push the stern more to the side.* *A fish tail rudder is another possibility alternative. **Converting a rudder to a fish tail rudder looks to be easy, it would create some additional drag, but being a slow trawler it might not be noticed.
*
*
-- Edited by Phil Fill on Tuesday 21st of December 2010 12:03:37 PM
I have look and talk to Bayview about the Actuating rudder several times as they are at the Seattle Boat show and read a couple of articles.* I am not quite a believer as the actuating rudder is another piece of running gear to take care of and can get fouled.* Does the Actuating Rudder help reduce the reverse prop walk?
It seems if you increased the actuator length by adding in a small link/piece would increase the rudders turning angle it might shorten the turning distance and/or push the stern more to the side.* *A fish tail rudder is another possibility alternative. **Converting a rudder to a fish tail rudder looks to be easy, it would create some additional drag, but being a slow trawler it might not be noticed.
*
*
-- Edited by Phil Fill on Tuesday 21st of December 2010 12:03:37 PM
skipperdude
Guru
*So what would a balanced rudder vs and unbalanced or semi balanced Rudder do?
SD*
Nomad Willy
Guru
Dude,
The ballanced rudder is easier to turn at the helm and presents less stress on the rudder horn bearings ect. The hydraulic steering system I favor is using two slave cylinders on the horn**** ..one pushing* ..one pulling. Actually what I'd REALLY like is power steering like in a car. And about 2 to 2.25 turns lock to lock..
The ballanced rudder is easier to turn at the helm and presents less stress on the rudder horn bearings ect. The hydraulic steering system I favor is using two slave cylinders on the horn**** ..one pushing* ..one pulling. Actually what I'd REALLY like is power steering like in a car. And about 2 to 2.25 turns lock to lock..
skipperdude
Guru
Thanks Mike,
*Just checking.
SD
*Just checking.
SD
Hi Woodsong
Ours is a 1991 model hull number 191. On Yacht World, there are two Monk 36's. One a 2001 and the other is a 2007. Both make comment to having an oversized rudder. Not sure if the newer boats were fitted with the larger rudders or not. The auto pilot will not keep the boat tracking all that straight and hand steering is constant.
Thanks for your input.
Ours is a 1991 model hull number 191. On Yacht World, there are two Monk 36's. One a 2001 and the other is a 2007. Both make comment to having an oversized rudder. Not sure if the newer boats were fitted with the larger rudders or not. The auto pilot will not keep the boat tracking all that straight and hand steering is constant.
Thanks for your input.
FF
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Actually what I'd REALLY like is power steering like in a car. And about 2 to 2.25 turns lock to lock..
No problem its just money , and you can have the hyd windlass and no time limits bow thruster as well. 6K of smooth AC .
Best bet is to toss in enough spare change for a hyd starter for the main engine and a hand pump.
You will never suffer from a dead batt again.
No problem its just money , and you can have the hyd windlass and no time limits bow thruster as well. 6K of smooth AC .
Best bet is to toss in enough spare change for a hyd starter for the main engine and a hand pump.
You will never suffer from a dead batt again.
Phil Fill
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The Eagle track straight and the auto pilot has no problem even in 3 to 4 ft seas.* But its *40+ tons and a rounded stern so it does not get push around much.* I talk to the shop and the are going to make me a 1 to 2 inch link between the actuator and the rudder to increase the angle.*
The biggest thing I would like to compensate for is the reverse prop walk.* I would take that over tighter turns any day.*
-- Edited by Phil Fill on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 12:47:26 PM
The biggest thing I would like to compensate for is the reverse prop walk.* I would take that over tighter turns any day.*
-- Edited by Phil Fill on Wednesday 22nd of December 2010 12:47:26 PM
Egregious
Guru
Is there anyone who can explain whether twins require the same or less rudder area as a single?
I would expect them to require less, as the full amount of rudder required should be related to the speed and hull configuration of the boat, rather than the number of pieces it is divided into. So maybe not a linear relationship, but if a single requires for example, 6 sq ft of rudder to achieve performance at hull speed, twins may also require 2 @ 3 sq ft, and if you were to put in a third engine, 3 @ 2 sq ft.
so Woody's rudders should be a lot smaller than Tony's.
sorry Woody.
I would expect them to require less, as the full amount of rudder required should be related to the speed and hull configuration of the boat, rather than the number of pieces it is divided into. So maybe not a linear relationship, but if a single requires for example, 6 sq ft of rudder to achieve performance at hull speed, twins may also require 2 @ 3 sq ft, and if you were to put in a third engine, 3 @ 2 sq ft.
so Woody's rudders should be a lot smaller than Tony's.
sorry Woody.
Egregious
Guru
They didn't make many with twins, but I found one.* I feel both sides of the argument, literally.* I love the maneuverability, and the spare engine saved our butts on our first long trip.* But doing everything X2 is a pain, and more expensive.* Same old arguments, and I still like having twins.Woodsong wrote:
Woody- you have twin screws! That is CHEATING!!
BTW, once they sanded it the bottom looks great, only a few small (size of a fingernail) blisters, and some evidence of galvanic corrosion.* Don't know yet whether it is coming from inside the boat or from a nearby slip.* So I have that to look at...
As far as the size of the rudders, maybe they need to be half the size since I have two...* But she drives straight and similar or better than other similar boats that I've driven, mostly Grand Banks.* Since mine is one of only a few that were built with twins, perhaps they just strapped on the same rudder X2*as they used with the singles?* Two rudders is more drag and all that running gear is why I don't get quite the fuel economy as a single, but I can get up and crank out nearly 10 knots when I have to, although inefficiently.
*
Nomad Willy
Guru
Woody,
Since you have twins I hope you have two 70hp engines instead of two 140hp engines.
When GB made twins they used the same engine as the single so they made two boats, both w the same hull but one w twice as much power and one w half as much power as the other. I hope Monk wasn't that stupid. But I'm afraid you're going to tell me it is so.
I compared you're stern pics and see that your about 1.5" lower in the water. One could assume it is from the weight of the extra engine but that weight would be far enough fwd so it should'nt show to that degree at the stern. Do you suppose it could be that your'e keel is full of water? Do you know if it is or isn't?
About the rudders. I suspect Monk probably decided you had so much extra power that a tiny loss in efficiency was worth loosing for the somewhat large increase in maneuverability and control. Also It's obvious they probably made the twin w the same engines as the single to minimize inventory complications and expense so they would do likewise w the rudders. Just because a boat was designed and built by "professionals" dosn't mean it was done correctly. If Edwin Monk designed the boat for 150hp no builder has any business putting 300 in it and the reverse is also true. Also in this Monk example the single engine boat has a certain weight capacity and the twin engine has a weight capacity that is a full ton less. And the single engined boat has a noticeably higher CG. I'm not saying they did or didn't know what they were doing or that I know what I'm talking about but they probably did it because GB was doing it and GB was selling more boats. I do take back most of the above if Woody's boat has two 75hp engines.
Since you have twins I hope you have two 70hp engines instead of two 140hp engines.
When GB made twins they used the same engine as the single so they made two boats, both w the same hull but one w twice as much power and one w half as much power as the other. I hope Monk wasn't that stupid. But I'm afraid you're going to tell me it is so.
I compared you're stern pics and see that your about 1.5" lower in the water. One could assume it is from the weight of the extra engine but that weight would be far enough fwd so it should'nt show to that degree at the stern. Do you suppose it could be that your'e keel is full of water? Do you know if it is or isn't?
About the rudders. I suspect Monk probably decided you had so much extra power that a tiny loss in efficiency was worth loosing for the somewhat large increase in maneuverability and control. Also It's obvious they probably made the twin w the same engines as the single to minimize inventory complications and expense so they would do likewise w the rudders. Just because a boat was designed and built by "professionals" dosn't mean it was done correctly. If Edwin Monk designed the boat for 150hp no builder has any business putting 300 in it and the reverse is also true. Also in this Monk example the single engine boat has a certain weight capacity and the twin engine has a weight capacity that is a full ton less. And the single engined boat has a noticeably higher CG. I'm not saying they did or didn't know what they were doing or that I know what I'm talking about but they probably did it because GB was doing it and GB was selling more boats. I do take back most of the above if Woody's boat has two 75hp engines.
