New battery technology on the horizon

[Martin J]

Came across this in this morning's paper.

Looks like we are in for major changes in the coming years.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/scie...gn=daily_evening_newsletter2&utm_medium=email

I like the fact that they assume that the batteries will be considerably cheaper than current lithium batteries.

 

[Benthic2]

..I like the fact that they assume that the batteries will be considerably cheaper than current lithium batteries.

That seems like a logical assumption since they use sodium and potassium in place of lithium, which is rare and hard to harvest.

This is great news for everyone. It will eventually make electric boats more feasible, ecars will have greater range, create storage for renewable energy, and eventually I think houses will have their own storage units like the Tesla Wall.

 

[syjos]

Lithium batteries prices are coming down.

Just sold a client - 5 Victron Energy LiFePO4 12.8V/100Ah Smart Batteries for $1,000 each. List on them were $1,327.

Many boat owners are buying Victron Lithium batteries from me. 6 boaters in the past year.

Only issue now is the supply.

 

[angus99]

Hopefully, this is all true and the science will transcend the snake-oil hype in the Daily Express story. The first three words in the headline—“Brexit Britain win”—and the fact that this paper hews closely to the current British govt party line are reasons to temper my enthusiasm a bit. The breathless, unquestioningly positive tone that sounds like it was lifted directly from a press release is what we in the trade used to call a “b**w-job.”

 

[kthoennes]

"...Scientists at the Bristol Composites Institute use what they call a novel controllable unidirectional ice-templating strategy capable of tailoring the electrochemical performances of next-generation post-lithium-ion batteries."

Well of course, DUH! Why didn't I think of that!!? I'm so embarrassed that never occurred to me.

 

[DDW]

Unfortunately, press announcements of battery breakthrough technology are a dime a dozen, and there have literally been dozens over the last 20 years. Technologies actually making it to market on the other hand are nearly vanishingly small. The current lithium technologies are approaching 3 decades old and have not been supplanted. Something will eventually break through, but don't hold your breath.

 

[C lectric]

Yeah, the Gel cells, then the AGM cells, then the Carbon foam , now lithium iron phosphate batteries and now these.

In many cases they can be made good use of and can offer distinct advantages but if misapplied or shortcutted on installation then they are an expensive mistake.

It's good to keep track but I won't hold my breath.

 

[syjos]

I'm happy to sell anyone anything (legal of course) including lithium, AGM etc.

My personal preference is wet cell 6 volt golf cart batteries. A lot of bang for the $. I replace the Costco/Interstate golf cart batteries every 5 to 6 years. Sandpiper is on it's 4th set of house batteries and I still have not spent as much money as what "higher tech" batteries would have cost.

In the 90's and early 00's, I sold a lot of expensive Rolls and Surrette wet cell batteries to boat owners. They might last 10 years? It simply does not pencil out compared to replacing a less expensive battery more frequently. The price of Rolls batteries have dropped significantly in the past 10 years so it would be worth a comparison currently.

I can see the allure of AGM or lithium batteries if constrained by space,weight or recharging capability. But for most of us with 40' plus trawlers those issues are not as critical. I spent the money on a smoother, quiet generator with a GenSep so we can run it for longer periods without offending nearby boats.

 

[draakken]

here is one i saw last year, and this might be the breakthrough that makes this chemistry commercially viable.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/science...lfur-sugar-future-electric-vehicles/100457492


2-5x the storage capacity of lion per unit weight, no mention of the volume difference.

 

[angus99]

here is one i saw last year, and this might be the breakthrough that makes this chemistry commercially viable.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/science...lfur-sugar-future-electric-vehicles/100457492


2-5x the storage capacity of lion per unit weight, no mention of the volume difference.

Splenda might help reduce the battery bank’s footprint.

 

[sunchaser]

I've followed this closely over the years, coming from the Pb production side. A few random thoughts:

The battery "improvement" push is virtually all related to automotive and light truck EV applications. The impetus seems to be two-fold - (1) faster charging to "full" and (2) cost containment.

Solid state battery announcements focus on great promise but a longer than desired development timeline keeps appearing, kind of like whack a mole. In this case Li is still needed.

Sodium batteries hold great promise (alkali metals, Na is right next to Li on the periodic table) but energy density is still undergoing development with weight and or volume hurdles to cross. On the huge plus side, Na is every where and cheap to produce.

But how does faster charging help boaters? With marina power grids already undersized and solar panels limited by area, the only answer I see is larger on engine alternator charging units or heavy genset use. Kinda like sail vs power boats redux?

 

[angus99]

I've followed this closely over the years, coming from the Pb production side. A few random thoughts:

The battery "improvement" push is virtually all related to automotive and light truck EV applications. The impetus seems to be two-fold - (1) faster charging to "full" and (2) cost containment.

Solid state battery announcements focus on great promise but a longer than desired development timeline keeps appearing, kind of like whack a mole. In this case Li is still needed.

Sodium batteries hold great promise (alkali metals, Na is right next to Li on the periodic table) but energy density is still undergoing development with weight and or volume hurdles to cross. On the huge plus side, Na is every where and cheap to produce.

But how does faster charging help boaters? With marina power grids already undersized and solar panels limited by area, the only answer I see is larger on engine alternator charging units or heavy genset use. Kinda like sail vs power boats redux?

Good thoughts, Tom. In addition to the two examples you mention, where do increased capacity and depth of discharge (i.e. range) figure in?

 

[syjos]

Faster charging allows for smaller battery banks and less generator running time to recharge.

 

[Moonfish]

I agree with syjos. In our experience with Firefly carbon foam batteries, faster charging (coupled with partial state of charge performance) is the most important piece of the overall equation.

 

[angus99]

Just to clarify, I was thinking of car/truck range above.

 

[sunchaser]

Angus
VW Group is working tirelessly to have solid state batteries ready for install in 2 years or so. Their current Li gel designs will be slowly phased out in less than a decade, so says their corporate website. The advantages of solid state, as also noted by Toyota, are charging for 12 minutes to 80%, lighter and smaller. Thus for the same space and weight solid state shows a 30% greater range.

VW also feels they will get up to 50% Li recycling in short order and thereby lowering costs. These steps are part of their overall strategy such that conversion to all EVs will be hastened. Plus they are big into construction of global battery plants.

Sodium battery design is currently vexed by increasing the density. Some promise is shown by using graphene to allow greater packing of the Na particles. I've one friend in the Li mining business who says Na will never replace Li. Another in the graphene business says the light is getting brighter.

How these new EV driven battery developments play into boating I can only but speculate?

 

[angus99]

Angus
VW Group is working tirelessly to have solid state batteries ready for install in 2 years or so. Their current Li gel designs will be slowly phased out in less than a decade, so says their corporate website. The advantages of solid state, as also noted by Toyota, are charging for 12 minutes to 80%, lighter and smaller. Thus for the same space and weight solid state shows a 30% greater range.

VW also feels they will get up to 50% Li recycling in short order and thereby lowering costs. These steps are part of their overall strategy such that conversion to all EVs will be hastened. Plus they are big into construction of global battery plants.

Sodium battery design is currently vexed by increasing the density. Some promise is shown by using graphene to allow greater packing of the Na particles. I've one friend in the Li mining business who says Na will never replace Li. Another in the graphene business says the light is getting brighter.

How these new EV driven battery developments play into boating I can only but speculate?

Good stuff, Tom. A true breakthrough in battery technology—including the ability to scale up—would be the game-changer that many are waiting for. Cars, boats and power grids will all fundamentally change. One of the power grids I used to work for explored using electric vehicles, while they were plugged into the system, for frequency regulation.

 

[Derik]

I have an off grid home. I use Trojan L-16 RE batteries (12) 6 volt batteries wired for a 24 volt system. I get about 6 years out of my batteries. I remember 5 years ago replacing my batteries and thinking soon they will have something better..There is nothing to replace these lead acid batteries that makes sense, Gel batteries are double the cost. Lithium are far too expensive and don't have the amp hour storage.

A boat like a home needs high amp hours for power storage.

 

[Bob M]

A downside of golf cart batteries is watering. If you're on the boat frequently, this is much less of a problem. If you are not, keeping the water level above the core can be a challenge. Once the water drops below a cell core, these batteries deteriorate quickly.


On my boat, checking and replenishing the battery water is not a walk in the park. I have to either wear a flashlight or stick a small one in my mouth, since it requires two hands to hold the funnel and pour the distilled water and you need light to see the battery cell water level.


If I was on the boat more frequently, golf cart batteries would be OK. AGM is the answer for our use.

 

[Benthic2]

.....There is nothing to replace these lead acid batteries that makes sense......

.....Yet.

 

[twistedtree]

here is one i saw last year, and this might be the breakthrough that makes this chemistry commercially viable.


https://www.abc.net.au/news/science...lfur-sugar-future-electric-vehicles/100457492


2-5x the storage capacity of lion per unit weight, no mention of the volume difference.

This does sound interesting, and the article is also realistic about time frames. The commercial company that will be developing it projects a working prototype (prototype, not commercial product) in 5-10 years.


All the research that's going into batteries is fantastic and will surely yield improvements, but the time frame from lab discovered to commercial product, let alone the time to product with any measurable market share is much, much longer than most people imagine. It's taken 20-30 years to get Lithium Ion batteries to their present market share.

 

[Codger2]

If I was on the boat more frequently, golf cart batteries would be OK. AGM is the answer for our use.

+1