New drop in Lifepo4 battery looks good for Marine use

[Barking Sands]

Panbo has just done an extensive test on the Epoch Batteries. Ben Steins conclusion is that they are the best battery he has tested to date. Apparently Epoch is an affiliate of RoyPow who is owned by EVE of eve cells. Here is a link to the write up.
https://panbo.com/epoch-batteries-elegant-drop-in-lifepo4/

I just put a 36 volt version in my golf cart to test these. They caught my attention and i figured they would make great house batteries and they meet many of the new abyc requirements as a drop in. The tethered monitor has an audible allert for most warnings. The only current issue is capacity. Many boaters will need larger AH ratings. But it does appear they will have some MUCH larger capacity batteries soon. Possibly in excess of 400ah. And the price is right. With the massive number of new companies out there its hard to decipher if one is better than the other. But the Epoch is looking like it meets the needs of boaters. Anyways..the Panbo article was pretty informative.

 

[ofer]

these look pretty good.

I think the days of these being the standard are quickly approaching

 

[DDW]

In his review, he does say that when it reaches 100% charge, it quits accepting charge (i.e., disconnects). So you still have the alternator problem to solve.

I'd like to see someone test and tear down a Discover LFP. They look very well built, maybe even better than this one, but they are at a higher price point.

 

[Barking Sands]

Ben Stein stated in the article that the Kilovault was another good one but that the Epoch was the top of the heap in design and performance. Rod Collins also had very high praise. Both Will Prowse and Lithium Solar basically stated the same...they had not seen this level of quality and features before.

 

[Comodave]

In his review, he does say that when it reaches 100% charge, it quits accepting charge (i.e., disconnects). So you still have the alternator problem to solve.

I'd like to see someone test and tear down a Discover LFP. They look very well built, maybe even better than this one, but they are at a higher price point.

Sterling make an alternator disconnect.

 

[ranger58sb]

Panbo has just done an extensive test on the Epoch Batteries. Ben Steins conclusion is that they are the best battery he has tested to date. Apparently Epoch is an affiliate of RoyPow who is owned by EVE of eve cells. Here is a link to the write up.
https://panbo.com/epoch-batteries-elegant-drop-in-lifepo4/

Stein says LiFePO4... but the battery case on that web page says Li-ion.

Thought Li-ion is the bad one.

??

-Chris

 

[twistedtree]

Stein says LiFePO4... but the battery case on that web page says Li-ion.

Thought Li-ion is the bad one.

??

-Chris

Li-ion (Lithium-Ion) is a whole class of batteries, and is not specific about what type. LiFePO4 (aka LFP) is a specific type of Li-ion battery. It's like saying it's a car, then being more specific saying that it's a ford.

 

[ranger58sb]

Li-ion (Lithium-Ion) is a whole class of batteries, and is not specific about what type. LiFePO4 (aka LFP) is a specific type of Li-ion battery. It's like saying it's a car, then being more specific saying that it's a ford.

Ah. Thanks.

-Chris

 

[CaptTom]

Interesting. I am waiting for LFP's to become "standard" too. I'm not sure I'm ready yet though. The only 12V options I saw on the linked Epoc Batteries page were 50AH and 100AH. The 100AH cost $600. I see each one comes with a built-in controller and Bluetooth. If I needed, say, four of them, wouldn't it be sort of wasteful to have four controllers? And Bluetooth is a one-to-one connection. Not sure what I need it for, but assuming I do, it would be a pain to connect and disconnect four times.

My house bank of golf cart batteries is getting long in the tooth. I'd love to find a LFP replacement, even at twice the price of FLAs. This doesn't seem to quite hit the mark yet though. Maybe I'll get another year out of mine. No doubt by then there will be even better options.

 

[Barking Sands]

Interesting. I am waiting for LFP's to become "standard" too. I'm not sure I'm ready yet though. The only 12V options I saw on the linked Epoc Batteries page were 50AH and 100AH. The 100AH cost $600. I see each one comes with a built-in controller and Bluetooth. If I needed, say, four of them, wouldn't it be sort of wasteful to have four controllers? And Bluetooth is a one-to-one connection. Not sure what I need it for, but assuming I do, it would be a pain to connect and disconnect four times.

My house bank of golf cart batteries is getting long in the tooth. I'd love to find a LFP replacement, even at twice the price of FLAs. This doesn't seem to quite hit the mark yet though. Maybe I'll get another year out of mine. No doubt by then there will be even better options.

I actually came to the opposite conclusion with the monitors. I ordered 4 of the 100ah versions already. I plan to make a small panel and mount/label each of the 4 tethered monitors. That way i can look at them for an instantaneous reference. The little monitor also shows if its currently taking a charge. In addition the monitor has audible and visual signals for most warnings. If a quick scan of the monitors shows an anomoly or you get a warning beep, you then have 2 things available to you. First You can then open the app to investigate further and second you can turn the affected battery off using the switch. If the system is in parallel you then continue with 3/4 remaining batteries.

During normal operation for longer periods you can open the app on say a weekly basis to check battery health. Not only can you see current health but the app stores historical data every 30 seconds which you can look back through. That would show charging sequences as well as discharge events. In a boat that is "shut down" it may even show bilge events if that was the only thing that cycled.

Having the monitors, app and ability to "turn off" the battery with a switch is a huge leap when you compare it to a typical battery install, which in many ways is an impenetrable mystery at times..lol.

I recall a recent failure of one of my Optima Blue tops. It took quite a while for that failure to be noticed. Had i had monitors and an app i would have known the instant its performance began to deviate from the bank and which cell in which battery was the issue. And then I could have turned off the battery to deal with it at a more convenient time. The Blue top had to be dealt with immediately once discovered because it was in an advanced stage of failure by that time.

 

[tpbrady]

Barking Sands

Can you explain what you mean by tethered monitors and disconnect switches? I didn’t see those things as options on the website. I noticed the battery that meets the lower IP65 standard didn’t have Bluetooth but did have a Canbus connection.

Tom

 

[Barking Sands]

Sure. I made a video with a 36 volt unit for the golf cart. But I suppose it could help regarding how this battery might be utlized in practice on a boat and how it improves the situation. One thing to note is the historical data is in graph form. So you can scroll over large periods of time and scan easily.
https://youtu.be/fLEwJadwuTc

 

[Barking Sands]

Sorry. My post was done from my phone and a little wonky. See the better link below. On a side note. Rod Collins has also claimed these to be the best battery he has tested for a "drop In style". it looks like he has secured a 10% off over on his Websites and Facebook pages.

 

[Hydraulicjump]

Dumb question

My ignorance is insatiable, says my spouse. Can someone explain this to me? Sorry to be a dunce.



"In his review, he does say that when it reaches 100% charge, it quits accepting charge (i.e., disconnects). So you still have the alternator problem to solve."

 

[Barking Sands]

My ignorance is insatiable, says my spouse. Can someone explain this to me? Sorry to be a dunce.



"In his review, he does say that when it reaches 100% charge, it quits accepting charge (i.e., disconnects). So you still have the alternator problem to solve."

Sorry for the late reply. When a lithium battery reaches 100% state of charge the BMS disconnects the charging path. The sudden disconnect can have an adverse affect on the alternator and equipment due to voltage spike. There are several ways to deal with this. IMO one of the easiest and most effective is something many of us would do anyways. Keep a lead start battery and couple the lead battery to the lithium through a DC to DC charger. Keeping the lead in the system acts as a natural buffer. There are other options as well. Some relatively inexpensive...some more expensive.

 

[DDW]

And Bluetooth is a one-to-one connection.

Bluetooth is a lot of things, but one thing it is not is a one-to-one connection. Even with the old 2.0 standard, you can maintain 4 or more simultaneous connections with anything remotely modern. But this is Bluetooth BLE (although under the Bluetooth name umbrella, an entirely different standard) and you can maintain a dozen connections or more simultaneously. So no problem there.

Sorry for the late reply. When a lithium battery reaches 100% state of charge the BMS disconnects the charging path. The sudden disconnect can have an adverse affect on the alternator and equipment due to voltage spike. There are several ways to deal with this. IMO one of the easiest and most effective is something many of us would do anyways. Keep a lead start battery and couple the lead battery to the lithium through a DC to DC charger. Keeping the lead in the system acts as a natural buffer. There are other options as well. Some relatively inexpensive...some more expensive.

Either the DC-DC has to be very large and charge the LFP bank (if you want reasonable charge rates) or has to be a very special kind of DC-DC to absorb the energy spike from the alternator. The Sterling device and similar Balmar device aren't disconnects - they try to sink the energy spike and may (or are likely to) be destroyed in the process. That makes them not a good choice for a battery that routinely disconnects at top of charge.

 

[Barking Sands]

Either the DC-DC has to be very large and charge the LFP bank (if you want reasonable charge rates) or has to be a very special kind of DC-DC to absorb the energy spike from the alternator. The Sterling device and similar Balmar device aren't disconnects - they try to sink the energy spike and may (or are likely to) be destroyed in the process. That makes them not a good choice for a battery that routinely disconnects at top of charge.

Obviously there are a few configurations using a dc2dc charger. I didnt clarify but I was replying with my likely configuration in mind. I only have a 100 amp Balmar externally regulated Alternator with temp sensor. Ill be luck to get 70 or so amps during cruise. And my house bank is likely going to be a fairly small 400ah system. I have a Victron 30A dc2dc charger. I will likely have the alternator charge the 2 AGM start batteries first and then take off 30 amps through the dc2dc charger for the lithium bank. If i decide I want more charging for the lithium i can add a second dc2dc charger. But I also have a generator and Victron Multiplus 2 that can charge the bank pretty quickly. So yes With a single 30 amp dc2dc charger im leaving a bit on the table but connecting the alternator to the agm should take care of any voltage spike.

Also..most of the drop ins will disconnect if the charge profile of the charger brings the voltage high enough. The charger for the Epoch seems to do this. I think the Dakota charger did too. But my other high amp charger would do the shutting down. I have the Balmar 618. I havent checked it out yet but the charge profiles should be adustable. If they are it seems adjusting these settings could keep max voltage so that the drop in reaches near full capacity but does not reach bms charge cut off voltage. In other words Ben Steins observance og bms charge disconnect may be more of an issue with an $89 non adustable charger that drives the charging to its top voltage limit on every charge. I think a charge system like the fancier Balmars or Wakespeed should be able to cover that issue. But ill have to experiment and read a bit when the time come.

 

[DDW]

For sure the Balmar 618 can be set low enough to not trip the BMS - ordinarily. You still have to expect the unexpected. The Wakespeed can communicate with a BMS (but apparently not the Epoch BMS yet) and shut down when the battery says it's had enough. That is the idea situation. I hope Wakespeed and Epoch get hooked up in the near term.

If I do this I will put a Victron ArgoFet isolator between the alternator and the AGM start & LFP house. I personally see that as the most robust solution with the fewest potential problems, unless you go all out with a CAN connected BMS and the Wakespeed. It's inexpensive, uncomplicated, and the only real downside is the AGM absorb voltage is slightly less than optimum - but it is the start bank and you mostly don't care.

 

[Iggy]

Sorry for the late reply. When a lithium battery reaches 100% state of charge the BMS disconnects the charging path. The sudden disconnect can have an adverse affect on the alternator and equipment due to voltage spike. There are several ways to deal with this. IMO one of the easiest and most effective is something many of us would do anyways. Keep a lead start battery and couple the lead battery to the lithium through a DC to DC charger. Keeping the lead in the system acts as a natural buffer. There are other options as well. Some relatively inexpensive...some more expensive.

I would call Balmar just to be 100% sure. But the 610 can be programed to lithium. What's different about lithium is that it does not like a constant charge voltage. So in programming the regulator you set the charger voltage and re-charge voltage. You could say the ON-OFF voltage.

In this way the BMS should not discount at all. But the regulator will turn off and on the Alt based on the voltage thats coming off the sense wire connected to the batteries.

Let me just add, this is how my charger/inverter is setup to charge my lithium house bank. I say call Balmar due to the fact that my Alt is charging my starting bank and powering my DC to DC charger which is charging my house bank. So if my charger/inverter does this than a regulator should too.

What I had to learn was, at times my charging/inverter was not charging. Having lead batterys for years I thought I had a setting wrong. NOPE! The batteries were in that charge - recharge window. Just something to be kept in the back of your mind in testing a new setup.

 

[Barking Sands]

If I do this I will put a Victron ArgoFet isolator between the alternator and the AGM start & LFP house. I personally see that as the most robust solution with the fewest potential problems, unless you go all out with a CAN connected BMS and the Wakespeed. It's inexpensive, uncomplicated, and the only real downside is the AGM absorb voltage is slightly less than optimum - but it is the start bank and you mostly don't care.

This sounds pretty good to me. Ill have to do more reading in the Argofet. I just need to think about placement and order of each component for maximum protection.

 

[Barking Sands]

.

In this way the BMS should not discount at all. But the regulator will turn off and on the Alt based on the voltage thats coming off the sense wire connected to the batteries.

.

Thanks Iggy. Thats what i have in mind. Also just need to confirm the voltage is high enough for the Epoch to do its little balancing act as well.

 

[Barking Sands]

I hope Wakespeed and Epoch get hooked up in the near term.

I dont know if Wakespeed and Epoch ever got hooked up. But it looks like the new larger batteries from Epoch for boats and off grid are making advancements. I keep hearing various rumors but it looks like the next battery will be 12v 480AH with Victron comm as well as NMEA2000. NMEA did not even cross my mind yet. But for sure that will be a welcome addition. Maybe Victron and Wakespeed share the same protocols? I believe Victron uses 2 comm types. One being VE direct? and then another type? Maybe that is compatible with the Wakespeed.

One other thing I just noticed (may be old news already) but Balmar has an adapter for the SG200 monitor to couple it to NMEA2000 now as well. I am still not sure how all this will shake out. Or if the new Epoch will now have a huge price tag due to all the additions. The first large Epoch should be out next month and deliver in July from what I hear.

I am still very happy with the golf cart Epoch.
And I have done some testing of the standard 12 volt 100AH Epoch battery against their claimed specs.

Its rated at 120amps continuous. I was able to pull 160-165 amps for over 22 minutes and it did not shut down. Another 10 minutes and it would have been depleted. So the 120 amps is quite conservative (as it should be). And it is amazing to see the voltage stay over 12 volts the entire time.



I also just 2 days ago tested to see if I could map out the peak amps VS time graph. They spec the peak output as 200 amps, but at a whopping 60 seconds. I tested that with a very rough rig to apply a load and was able to get an average of 200 amps for 60+ seconds with it pulling 230+ amps over the last 10 seconds or so.

I then tried some peaks at shorter time scales. Was able to see 300 amps for about 3 seconds before I got the "OC prot" (over current protection)

And finally 438 amps for about 1 second without shutting down.

Then I just turned up the load rapidly until it shut down I was not able to measure the peak but somewhere well north of 400 amps it went into "SC Prot" (short circuit protection)