Next-Gen 5.5Kw Generator

[Enola B]

I was wondering if anybody has had any expirence with "Next-Gen" generators.* I am in the process of restoring my old 1975 Marine Trader and will be in the market for a new genset.* I looked at these units at the boat show a couple years ago and was impressed at how quiet they are and also how compact.* Old genset was an "Entec" 6.5 kw, it was HUGE and un supportable parts wise.*
I'm new to posting here but have been lurking/reading for some time.* The restoration project is major, as old MT's were not known for their quality of construction.* Got the outside done, ready for final paint and right now rebuilding the engine stringers as both were totally rotted away.* Fun!.* Have pix but need to resize them.* Will figure out how and do a post of the work in progress later.* Been doing so much I could do a TV show "This Old Boat"* whith all that I have gone thru so far.*

Bill

 

[Marin]

Don't know about "next gen" generators. But if you decide to go with a "regular" generator, there are only two to pick from. Northern Lights and everything else. Our boat still has its original, 70s- vintage Onan MDJE and so far it continues to run as advertised. Ideally it will continue to do so until we can no longer run the boat and sink it for an artificial reef, but if the day comes that it quits, it will be replaced with a Northern Lights.

 

[Capn Chuck]

Bill, We have researched the Next-Gen quite a bit and from the feedback we have received it is a very good unit and seems to be quite dependable. I too would prefer a Northern Lights but in our case it is just not practical because of the size of the unit compared to Next-Gen. It will have to mount in the engine compartment and we have to live with those constraints. The Next-Gen is the unit we will be installing. Chuck

 

[Nomad Willy]

Marin,
There are lots and lots of gensets out there. You make it sound like NL gensets are 2 or 3 times as good as anything else. Can't be possible. First of all NL dosn't even make anything. They are an assemblage of parts from manufacturers around the world. Anybody can obtain the nessesary parts and arranging them all together is'nt rocket science. For the buck I would think Westerbeke or Klassen would be a better value and 999% as good or even better.

Eric Henning

 

[Marin]

Well, for the most part I think every diesel marine engine for use in smaller boats like ours, either for propulsion or power generations, is based on an automotive or industrial engine. So the fact that NL uses base engines made by Yanmar, John Deere, Daimler-Benz, etc. seems sort of irrelevant.

A lot of NL gensets are purchased by people who have the money to buy any genset made on the planet regardless of cost. If you look at the equipment lists on vessels like Paul Allens 400-something foot yacht, or the yachts owned the McCaws, etc., etc. etc., they are all Northern Lights.

So I'm basing my opinion on how the market regards these generators, not on my own bias--- we don't have one anyway.

I don't know how many "times" better a NL is. Probably can't measure that anyway. But in terms of reliability and performance, they seem to consistently be the hands down winner in the comparison tests I've read, including commercial applications which are far more demanding than what we do with them.

In fact in some of the comparisons I've read it's almost like the reviewer says, okay, we've got all these generators we're going to look at. One of them is a Northern Lights and it's the best, so we're going to talk about all these others instead.

But, like everything with boats, what I said is just my opinion. So all I will say is that if it's my boat, and I have to buy or replace a diesel genset, the only thing I would consider-- at least today, don't know about the future--- is a Northern Lights because, based on what I've read and been told by people who have them or didn't buy them and subsequently say they wish they had, it's the only generator I would consider. When I hear people say, "it's almost as good as a Northern Lights," I know what kind of generator to buy.

 

[Nomad Willy]

"Northern Lights and everything else."

That says it's not worth looking at anything else. But I'll accept the probable fact that it's It's your opinion aquired from someone else and enforced by your buddy Sentor. I'll admit it's a fairly safe way to shop if your'e not willing to spent any time shopping. So your'e going to base your next genset purchase on the actions of people that haven't done any research or shopping? What's this*** .. buy a Chevrolet*** ..3000000 people can't be wrong? You don't even know IF NL gensets are better. This is not fair though***** .. your'e being serious, and fairly nice as well and I'm mostly just jivin ya. But if you could make a comment like the above and not get a rise out of anyone you'd get bored. However I'll bet NL gensets are 3% better for 30% more money. The fishing industry up here in Alaska depends largely on Klassen gensets. I should call Dave and see what he says.

Eric Henning

 

[Marin]

Hi Eric. I'm afraid I don't know who Sentor is. I do tend to think that the people who build mega-yachts probably do a hell of a lot of research to determine the best components of their customer's boats. So there's no point duplicating what they've already done.

I've been associated with a yacht that had two NL gensets. The yacht was all-electric and at lest one of the gensets was running 24/7. Since their installation in the early 90s they'd been trouble free outside of routine servicing and maintenance. But you're right, I have not had any direct, long-term personal experience with them.

So if the day comes when we have to replace the Onan with a NL, I don't feel that the decision will be based on people that haven't done any research on gensets. On the contrary, I feel that the people I will be basing my decision on will have done more research than the average recreational boater because a) their clients have had the money to pay them to look into however many generators they want, b) they have had experience with a range of generators, and c) the nature of their business gives them the time to do the research, even to the point of visiting the manufacturers in person. I'm not going to do any better than that on my own.

That's not to say somebody tomorrow won't come out with a generator better than NL. But if they do, the trades will be full of positive reports about it, and I'll have something else to look at in the event we need to replace the generator.

I trust you had a great Christmas.

 

[FF]

"I do tend to think that the people who build mega-yachts probably do a hell of a lot of research to determine the best components of their customer's boats. So there's no point duplicating what they've already done."

About 75% of marketing is "after marketing" which is done simply to keep existing owners happy , so perhaps they will come back.

On the commercial side the gen head made by LIMA seems to be the most sought after with the operating engine up to the desires of the boat, eg whatever he can fix , or got great service from last.

IS NL worth the extra? Not to me,but I dont worry about resale on my "superyacht".

FF

 

[Enola B]

The Norther Lights 6KW is my other option, however it is almost 100 lb heavier and I have
to watch the weight as the boat will become bow heavy quite easily. Thank you for th input
Chuck, I have not seen any posts/reports on the Next-Gen is why I inquired. I think the most
important issue as to the "Best" make of anything is the support/parts availability. In that aspect NL has a good rep for parts availability just about everywhere. The old Entec Gen that
was on the boat when I bought it had issues. The drive coupling to the gen let go twice on me, and probably on the previous owner also as the bellhousing had a chunk broken out of it. Also the wet exhaust elbo corroded thru, aluminum, and was not available here in the states, could get one from France at over $500! I was in the Bahamas when it let go, was lucky to get the old one welded up at a place on Grand Bahama Island, made it thru the rest of the trip but it was on it's last legs. The engine was a Kubota, no issues there, was able to get parts from any Kubota tractor dealer but the marinization by "Nanai" was useless.
Parts support along with size are my main considerations for the replacement. I've heard that Onan and Kohler use alot of "propriatary" parts, only available from them at a substantial higher price than any equalivent generic part, ie raw water pump impellers, that shy's me away from them.
Just a little expansion on the reason behind my question.

 

[Capn Chuck]

Bill, There was a discussion on the SSCA discussion board a while back on the Next-Gen and they have had several discussions involving generators with folks that have been cruising for extended times. Good luck. Chuck

 

[RickB]

Marin wrote:

I do tend to think that the people who build mega-yachts probably do a hell of a lot of research to determine the best components of their customer's boats.

As one who specs such things for mega-yachts, the research has more to do with which of the well established manufacturers has a set of generators which meet the power requirement, have class approval, and are in stock or available when they are needed. Price is important as well and some manufacturers may offer attractive pricing if they need to move a set of generators at any given time and that often tips the scales.

The choice is nearly always between NL, Cat, and Kohler. Since the electrical end rarely gives any problems it is the prime mover that matters most and and NL and Kohler use brand name engines that can be serviced anywhere and that is as important as the history of the engine make and model.

 

[Phil Fill]

I agree the important factor is a long lasting engine and parts/service are available.* When/if it comes time to replace it would be with another gen with a name brand engine not what the name of the gen set is, and what fits the space.* Acraully I plan on going with the biggest hp engine rather than szing by the KW.

 

[Arctic Traveller]

I have operated a lot of commercial boats in the past, and the vast majority have had N/L generators.* The last one had two 40KW units that had over 30K hours each, with only one rebuild.* They were still going strong when the new owners replaced them simply due to the advanced hours.* They chose to install another set of N/L's.* These have proven to be very reliable units.* The yacht I currently run has three generators, and the N/L is the one that always runs, and it has never failed, despite being underloaded most of the time.* I can't say anything bad about them.* .....Arctic Traveller

Trawler training and yacht charters at www.arctictraveller.com

 

[Tom.B]

Isn't 50Hz the European standard? You'll want the 60.

 

[jleonard]

I am not sure I'm as comiitted as Marin is, but I installed a NL 4.5 kw in my previous boat and it was a fantastic unit. Extremely quiet without an enclosure.

My buddy's Westerbeke was*very loud. Both were late 90s models.

*

 

[FF]

Folks are forgetting that the noisemaker engine is 1/3 the package.

The generator "head" (the part that makes the electric) can be from Cambodia or ???? , the better ones come from the USA, from a commercial gen set source like Lima.

The final important part is the speed / load brain, a flyweight and spring? or an electronic box , as usual price and quality and service life will vary Widely!

Cheap , is cheap for a REASON!

That is NOT to say expensive (big add budget) is any better.

Examine the parts build list not the brand label.






-- Edited by FF on Sunday 17th of April 2011 04:29:40 AM

 

[Baker]

GonzoF1 wrote:
Isn't 50Hz the European standard? You'll want the 60.

*

*Don't know about which standard goes to what country(although I do realize the US is 60hz), but generally speaking on most generators, 1800RPM(engine RPM)=60hz and 1500=50hz.

 

[Per]

anyone have an idea of the cost involved in replacing a genset?
my Onan is leaking oil through the front seal, mechanic says better to get a good used unit..
ofcourse he could just be looking for work.

 

[FF]

Ideally it will continue to do so until we can no longer run the boat and sink it for an artificial reef, but if the day comes that it quits, it will be replaced with a Northern Lights.


Why not a simple rebuild of the original," 70s- vintage Onan MDJE," and another happy 30-40 years?

If used with light loads these "antiques" seem to have lower fuel burn than the modern yard implement powered noisemakers.

Parts are easily obtained , which may not be true from parts bin assemblies , after the "next" model is produced.

 

[sunchaser]

Re Nexgen - Peruse boatdiesel comments for some additional info

Re Westerbeke noise - my 12.5 is whisper quiet

Re Northern Lights - I'm not sure their small units (less than 7 KW) have the "live forever" reputation as their larger units

RE Kohler - I've had two small units, a 3.5 and 5 KW. Wonderful sets

For us light (less than 200 hours per year)*genset users., the longevity of a genset is up ot the owner to determine, not the manufacturer.

 

[Egregious]

I love how the marketing materials talk about features as if their product is the only one that has that feature.* This isn't a knock on NL generators, only a comment on their marketing text on their web page:

"The ideal 6kW generator set is small and lightweight. The M673L3 certainly qualifi es. But it stands apart through its remarkable long-life reliability. The reason? The M673L3 runs at 1800 rpm (1500 rpm for 50 Hz), instead of 3600 rpm."

My Westerbeke 5.5 runs at 1800 RPM.

"The M673L3 has a balanced Lugger three cylinder diesel instead of a rough two banger."

My Westerbeke has a 3 cylinder...

"A 30 amp AC circuit breaker in the junction box protects your wiring. Safety shutdowns for low oil pressure, high coolant temperature and high exhaust temperature protect your engine."

All standard stuff on most generators I'd say.

As stated earlier, my guess is that where NL really stands apart is their larger units.

 

[Per]

does anyone know how much energy is lost re-charging batts?
lets say you run a 1.2kw generator for 1 hour, you would produce 100 AHS, how much of the 100 AHS are retained in the batts?

 

[FF]

how much of the 100 AHS are retained in the batts?

The rate at which a battery cam absorb a charge varies with the discharged state of the batt,

A low battery set can at the start absorb about 25% OF THE BATT capacity (20 hour rating), OR BATT BANK CaPACITY , if THE ALTERNATOR IS BIG ENOUGH.

*

Unfortunatly this only holds till the batt set is about 80% full, where it takes far longer to pump in thode amps.

*

AGM batts can be discharged further and recharged faster (sex mfg), but $200% or 300% more expensive is only for folks that REALLY hate the stench of the noisemaker.

*

The above info is only for an alt fitted with a "smart" V regulator.

The std auto/truck V regulastor is much slower* sy recharges from 50% dead,as it expects a 99% full bat when it comes on line.


-- Edited by FF on Wednesday 20th of July 2011 01:12:31 PM

 

[RickB]

Per wrote:does anyone know how much energy is lost re-charging batts?
lets say you run a 1.2kw generator for 1 hour, you would produce 100 AHS, how much of the 100 AHS are retained in the batts?

The answer depends on how far down the batteries are at the beginning of the charge.

It also depends on if you really are asking how much can you get back out of the battery vs what the*generator*delivered to a battery charger. That figure is called overall system efficiency. Keep in mind that since the energy conversion in the generator itself is not considered, the real efficiency of converting fuel to DC power out of the battery is much lower than shown below.

If the depth of discharge is 80 percent you can expect about 64 percent

If the depth of discharge is 40 percent you can expect about*49 percent

If the depth of discharge is*20 percent you can expect about*36 percent

How far down do you take your battery and how efficient is your generator? It is probably less than 35 percent efficient so the*amount of energy that comes out of the battery compared to what goes into the into the generator*is pretty low.


-- Edited by RickB on Wednesday 20th of July 2011 01:17:08 PM

 

[Tom.B]

BTW... To the OP. We have a Next Gen 3.5k. It gets the job done and is built to last, but it sounds like there is a commercial lawn mower in the bilge when I do, so running it overnight would be out. Otherwise, I like it. It's pretty small and easy to service.

 

[Per]

RickB wrote:Per wrote:does anyone know how much energy is lost re-charging batts?
lets say you run a 1.2kw generator for 1 hour, you would produce 100 AHS, how much of the 100 AHS are retained in the batts?

The answer depends on how far down the batteries are at the beginning of the charge.

It also depends on if you really are asking how much can you get back out of the battery vs what the*generator*delivered to a battery charger. That figure is called overall system efficiency. Keep in mind that since the energy conversion in the generator itself is not considered, the real efficiency of converting fuel to DC power out of the battery is much lower than shown below.

If the depth of discharge is 80 percent you can expect about 64 percent

If the depth of discharge is 40 percent you can expect about*49 percent

If the depth of discharge is*20 percent you can expect about*36 percent

How far down do you take your battery and how efficient is your generator? It is probably less than 35 percent efficient so the*amount of energy that comes out of the battery compared to what goes into the into the generator*is pretty low.



-- Edited by RickB on Wednesday 20th of July 2011 01:17:08 PM

*you are on the righ track here.

i am considering a small portable gasoline genertor to substitue until i get a new or used gen set installed.

it puts out 1000 watts, i was wondering how long it takes to re-charge my 4 d's bank batts (compared to the genny at 3Kw).

would probably only use down around 50% on the batts, and or coordinate it to work out to a daily event so i need to calculate apprx how much energy we use on a typical day.

roughly it sounds like my 1000 watts is reduced to produce around 400-500 watts or* apprx 33 amps charged per hour of generator running.

 

[Per]

FF wrote:
how much of the 100 AHS are retained in the batts?

The rate at which a battery cam absorb a charge varies with the discharged state of the batt,

A low battery set can at the start absorb about 25% OF THE BATT capacity (20 hour rating), OR BATT BANK CaPACITY , if THE ALTERNATOR IS BIG ENOUGH.

*

Unfortunatly this only holds till the batt set is about 80% full, where it takes far longer to pump in thode amps.

*

AGM batts can be discharged further and recharged faster (sex mfg), but $200% or 300% more expensive is only for folks that REALLY hate the stench of the noisemaker.

*

The above info is only for an alt fitted with a "smart" V regulator.

The std auto/truck V regulastor is much slower* sy recharges from 50% dead,as it expects a 99% full bat when it comes on line.



-- Edited by FF on Wednesday 20th of July 2011 01:12:31 PM

*thanks FF, I am not so woried about the last 20%. hope the solar panels can take on the trickle charge..

not sure which V reg is on my alternators, i will check it out. is that an easy re-fit with a smart V reg?

 

[RickB]

Per wrote:i am considering a small portable gasoline genertor to substitue until i get a new or used gen set installed.

*If you have some cash buring a hole in your pocket why not just buy a high output alternator and smart regulator and use that until you get a replacement generator. It seems like a waste of time and money to go through all those conversion losses if you don't really have a need for ac power.

Most of the power produced by a screaming little gas generator is going to be wasted by the time you get it back out of the batteries anyway. Set yourself up for rapid charging off the engine and use an inverter for the small ac loads that you do have. That way you won't make yourself and your family miserable with the noise and fumes.

 

[FF]

"that an easy re-fit with a smart V reg?"

IF your alt is one of the heavier duty models that has the V regulator mounted ON the alt , or wired to it , the change ofer is a minor deal.

IF the unit is an auto or light truck unit that has the V reg built in , much ungood.

Either a trip to a shop to open the alt and lead the field wire out , or a better external V reg alt is needed.

I would go to a HD truck parts store and ask what is on sale.

Frequently a brand new 135A lat will be under $150.

Its large frame so can handle the heat of producing 100A + for hours, many re wound car units like Balmars have poor output at high temperatures.

 

[sunchaser]

FF

Is there a difference between an auto parts alt and a marine alt?