Our "new" Gardner engine on the dynamometer

[ChristineKling]

We have spent the summer at Kalymnos Island in Greece - not a bad place to be "stuck" while dealing with issues with our Gardner engine. We finally decided to pull the engine and send it back to Gardner Marine Diesels in Canterbury, UK in exchange for one of their rebuilt engines. This is our pretty new one, Mr. Gee 2.0

Wayne recently flew to the UK to watch as they put the engine through the dynamometer testing. If you're a Gardner fan, here's the blog that explains all the math about torque, rpm, and propellor horse power with video, graphs and all: https://mobius.world/dynamometer-testing-is-dyno-mite-mbius-update-sept-26-29-2022/

 

[hmason]

I would put that in my living room. Gosh it’s pretty.

 

[cardude01]

Our "new" Gardner engine on the dynamometer

Y’all sure were having lots of trouble with that original Gardner. Seems like Wayne has taken that engine apart/removed it more times than I can remember. I’m worn out just watching him. [emoji3]

Kudos to you two for being so understanding and calm during this long (over a year?) episode. I would be throwing things and screaming into the void and having a stoke probably.

But like you said, this extra time has been spent in a exceedingly lovely spot, and it’s given you time to heal your knees, see the grandkids, etc, so it’s not all bad obviously.

 

[ChristineKling]

I would put that in my living room. Gosh it’s pretty.

Aw, we sure feel the same. Thanks

 

[ChristineKling]

Y’all sure were having lots of trouble with that original Gardner. Seems like Wayne has taken that engine apart/removed it more times than I can remember. I’m worn out just watching him. [emoji3]

Kudos to you two for being so understanding and calm during this long (over a year?) episode. I would be throwing things and screaming into the void and having a stoke probably.

But like you said, this extra time has been spent in a exceedingly lovely spot, and it’s given you time to heal your knees, see the grandkids, etc, so it’s not all bad obviously.

Hey, you’re absolutely right. It has been over a year and I feel so fortunate to be with Wayne who can manage all this and keep smiling. We just keep dealing with the issues one at a time. Whether you see boat stuff as a disaster or an adventure is all up to you. Wait until you see the next blog. We just got kicked out of Greece and has to leave Möbius behind with the engine en route! The adventure continues!

 

[slowgoesit]

If I recall correctly, this will the the THIRD iteration of the engine?!? The first was mishandled during break-in by the hired captain, but I thought Mike's people came out and did the rebuild? What happened to that one? I'm starting to get nervous about ours!
Really REALLY sorry to hear about your woes, especially that it appears that the new engine will be installed in your absence. Please keep us appraised of the situation. Scot

 

[dannc]

Hey, you’re absolutely right. It has been over a year and I feel so fortunate to be with Wayne who can manage all this and keep smiling. We just keep dealing with the issues one at a time. Whether you see boat stuff as a disaster or an adventure is all up to you. Wait until you see the next blog. We just got kicked out of Greece and has to leave Möbius behind with the engine en route! The adventure continues!

OUCH! I read the engine update last night, which was awesome, but I was wondering about the down side that was mentioned.

I was wondering if you would run out of Schengen time before the engine was replaced.

Guess we will find out on the next installment of How The Mobius Turns.

Later,
Dan

 

[dannc]

If I recall correctly, this will the the THIRD iteration of the engine?!? The first was mishandled during break-in by the hired captain, but I thought Mike's people came out and did the rebuild? What happened to that one? I'm starting to get nervous about ours!
Really REALLY sorry to hear about your woes, especially that it appears that the new engine will be installed in your absence. Please keep us appraised of the situation. Scot

The whole engine saga is on https://mobius.world/.

They have had some really odd problems that were frustrating for *** ME *** to read/follow. I can't even comprehend how frustrating it must be for Wayne and Christine.

They have swapped out the previous engine for a "new" one that just was shipped from Gardner. The latest post about the testing of the new engine was interesting.

Later,
Dan

 

[cardude01]

Hey, you’re absolutely right. It has been over a year and I feel so fortunate to be with Wayne who can manage all this and keep smiling. We just keep dealing with the issues one at a time. Whether you see boat stuff as a disaster or an adventure is all up to you. Wait until you see the next blog. We just got kicked out of Greece and has to leave Möbius behind with the engine en route! The adventure continues!

Holy smokes! I was wondering about the bad news that was coming on the next blog.

However, after seeing how well you two deal with everything else, I’m sure you will deal with this latest hiccup with aplomb. I look forward to reading about it.

 

[Mako]

Christine, purely in retrospect/hindsight, if you were doing it over again do you think it would have been more practical to just install an in-production mechanical engine (Cummins China, Doosan Korea, etc.) versus all the effort on the legendary Gardner?

 

[Comodave]

It is indeed beautiful.

 

[cardude01]

Our "new" Gardner engine on the dynamometer

Christine, purely in retrospect/hindsight, if you were doing it over again do you think it would have been more practical to just install an in-production mechanical engine (Cummins China, Doosan Korea, etc.) versus all the effort on the legendary Gardner?

I thought one big reason they went with the Gardner is because it has no electronics to go out. IIRC they plan on cruising the world and Wayne wanted something he could totally work on himself?

I suppose they could have gone with an old school non-electric Cat or Cummins, but I don’t think they get the economy or have the low rpm torque like the Gardner does? Plus, they are not nearly as sexy. [emoji57]

 

[rslifkin]

I thought one big reason they went with the Gardner is because it has no electronics to go out. IIRC they plan on cruising the world and Wayne wanted something he could totally work on himself?

I suppose they could have gone with an old school non-electric Cat or Cummins, but I don’t think they get the economy or have the low rpm torque like the Gardner does? Plus, they are not nearly as sexy. [emoji57]

Agreed, of the non-electronic options, the Gardner is probably the most efficient. Even most of the modern electronic turbo stuff isn't any more efficient than a Gardner.



Honestly, I wouldn't be scared of electronics for an application like that, but I'd want to make sure I could (at a semi-reasonable cost) buy the computer tools and all of the documentation to go with the engine. That way it would become DIY-able (provided parts are available as needed, like any other engine). I wouldn't want any engine where I'd be stuck relying on outside techs because I couldn't get the tools to diagnose it myself.

 

[psneeld]

Yep, no engine is bulletproof. Some are a bit more desirable for reasons, but still no reason to think there will never be issues.

 

[Simi 60]

I thought one big reason they went with the Gardner is because it has no electronics to go out. IIRC they plan on cruising the world and Wayne wanted something he could totally work on himself?

I suppose they could have gone with an old school non-electric Cat or Cummins, but I don’t think they get the economy or have the low rpm torque like the Gardner does? Plus, they are not nearly as sexy. [emoji57]

Economy is marginally better, but cost to purchase is likely higher negating fuel saving.
But reliability, easy access to parts and service in remote parts of the world are more important in my eyes if venturing further afield.

Previous owner of ours looked at a 6lxb repower but she would have been running at near full noise for 8 knots whereas the 855 Cummins he chose is hardly ticking over.
Parts are plentiful online and here in days, cheap
And I feel confident I can get it worked on pretty much anywhere.

Don't get me wrong, I do love a Gardner and an 8lxb would have been a more suitable candidate for ours, but I'd hate to be stuck in Indonesia for example needing a part or something done and for that reason I am glad of the choice made for repower on ours.

 

[cardude01]

Good points. I didn’t think about how those Gardner parts are harder to come by in most remote locations.

 

[Simi 60]

Good points. I didn’t think about how those Gardner parts are harder to come by in most remote locations.

Even near civilisation.
People we know with an 8lxb were chasing a heat exchanger for a year or more for their vessel.

I could have a new one landed in a week for the 855.
Could likely track down 2nd hand in similar timeframe.

 

[ChristineKling]

Christine, purely in retrospect/hindsight, if you were doing it over again do you think it would have been more practical to just install an in-production mechanical engine (Cummins China, Doosan Korea, etc.) versus all the effort on the legendary Gardner?

You ask a good question, and it is one we have asked ourselves many times. But in the end, we have come to the conclusion that the things that happened to us and our engine were Black Swan events.

"A black swan is an unpredictable event that is beyond what is normally expected of a situation and has potentially severe consequences. Black swan events are characterized by their extreme rarity, severe impact, and the widespread insistence they were obvious in hindsight."

As humans, we like to look for patterns, especially in hindsight. The hundreds of thousands of Gardner engines that are out there providing dependable service are a testament to the engines' reliability. For all brands of engines, **** happens. We have just been unlucky enough to see more than our share.

When we arrived in Kalymnos, we asked ourselves if we wanted to go with a different engine and gave it some serious thought. In the end, the answer was no. We still have faith in the mighty Gardner.

 

[bogranjac1]

black swan event ?

Can't say I had ever heard that term being applied before - black swan event - as in rare - there's tens of thousands here. Just a drive along any fresh waterway you see them.

 

[Jeff F]

Honestly, I wouldn't be scared of electronics for an application like that, but I'd want to make sure I could (at a semi-reasonable cost) buy the computer tools and all of the documentation to go with the engine. That way it would become DIY-able (provided parts are available as needed, like any other engine). I wouldn't want any engine where I'd be stuck relying on outside techs because I couldn't get the tools to diagnose it myself.

I think these days the solution is remote monitoring and diagnostics. As long as you have an internet connection the electronics can be accessed remotely. You're fully reliant on outside techs, but they're available online 24/7.

 

[Mako]

Honestly, I wouldn't be scared of electronics for an application like that, but I'd want to make sure I could (at a semi-reasonable cost) buy the computer tools and all of the documentation to go with the engine. That way it would become DIY-able (provided parts are available as needed, like any other engine). I wouldn't want any engine where I'd be stuck relying on outside techs because I couldn't get the tools to diagnose it myself.

I think these days the solution is remote monitoring and diagnostics. As long as you have an internet connection the electronics can be accessed remotely. You're fully reliant on outside techs, but they're available online 24/7.

This is an important discussion being raised unfortunately by Mobius' Black Swan, for those who are considering a new build or a repower of a later-model existing boat. I'm focusing here on remote cruising.

(1) Install a mechanical engine: even if you decide to document in Jersey, there are the implications of resale. The person buying may want to transfer to the EU or to America or such. Or document say in the USA if you never intend to ever land there. Ever.

(2) Install an electronic engine: diagnosis and repair issues. I understand that some engine brands do not want diagnostic computers out in the market - only to be used by certified technicians. That one aside, you can invest say $5k in the computer and likely another $2k (??) for a full set of sensors and some wire bundles. Get some factory training. Or utilize your satellite comms to contact the online techs.

Neither situation is ideal, so you choose your poison and push forward.

 

[slowgoesit]

The hundreds of thousands of Gardner engines that are out there providing dependable service are a testament to the engines' reliability. For all brands of engines, **** happens. We have just been unlucky enough to see more than our share./QUOTE]


Christine,

What actually happened with the most recent engine? I looked over your blog, but must have missed it. We have the 8LXB. Thanks, Scot

 

[sunchaser]

Gardner issues aside, this thread has several mentions of electronic engine worries. That said, there are hundreds of electronic engines made installed in Nordhavns, FPBs and Northern Marines. Throw in the hundreds if not thousands of electronic engines in Fleming's, American Tugs, Hamptons etc and there should be all sorts of failures- or not.

Then, one cannot buy a new engine of +150 Hp unless it is electronic. So who out there is having all sorts of assumed engine failures due to electronics? Possibly we have another candidate for the diesel myths thread.

 

[Simi 60]

.

Then, one cannot buy a new engine of +150 Hp unless it is electronic. :

Yes you can.
Maybe it's just a US thing

So who out there is having all sorts of assumed engine failures due to electronics? Possibly we have another candidate for the diesel myths thread. :confused

I know of vessels built near service centres and reliable internet that have then been put in service in areas without that have had issues.

One so much so that they ripped out the electronic Volvo's and went old skool WW2 vintage cats.
Back to cable gear and throttle as well.

 

[rslifkin]

Gardner issues aside, this thread has several mentions of electronic engine worries. That said, there are hundreds of electronic engines made installed in Nordhavns, FPBs and Northern Marines. Throw in the hundreds if not thousands of electronic engines in Fleming's, American Tugs, Hamptons etc and there should be all sorts of failures- or not.

Then, one cannot buy a new engine of +150 Hp unless it is electronic. So who out there is having all sorts of assumed engine failures due to electronics? Possibly we have another candidate for the diesel myths thread.

I think it's more an issue of ability to DIY things vs availability of parts, service, etc. Not entirely related to the electronics or their reliability. Personally, if it's an engine that's got good history in commercial use, I wouldn't be scared of it.

 

[sunchaser]

Yes you can.
Maybe it's just a US thing

I was confused I guess. I thought that to comply with Tier III and IV that electronic engine controls were par for the course in Europe, North America and Australia.

 

[BruceK]

Can't say I had ever heard that term being applied before - black swan event - as in rare - there's tens of thousands here. Just a drive along any fresh waterway you see them.

Indeed! In Australia it should be called a "white swan event". No white swans here, only black.

 

[Simi 60]

I was confused I guess. I thought that to comply with Tier III and IV that electronic engine controls were par for the course in Europe, North America and Australia.

I know we can still get new tier 2
350hp NTA855 Cummins here, I imagine there are other breeds doing similar.

https://www.filterdiscounters.com.au/cummins-nta855-m350-marine-engine-brand-new/

 

[rslifkin]

You can still get older tier engines, but you can't legally put them in a new build in countries requiring the newer standards. No issues using the older engines to repower an older boat that was that tier or lower originally.

 

[sunchaser]

Similar
I am a real fan of the NT 855s. But, new Australian builders like Riviera and Maritimo are both locked into higher Tier ratings as best I understand. But that is not the primary point I was raising. I.e. electronic engines are ubiquitous with happy owners cruising the world.

Remembering too, this thread is about a troublesome non electronic engine.