Overkill in boat selection for normal cruising

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mssrs. c and A. My point is there are scads of 4X4's that ARE used to their full capabilities BUT that "soccer mom" doesn't ever haul anything more than equipment bags or go off paved roads. THAT'S overkill IMO.
I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee and she's tough and dirty.

 

[Hippocampus]

In my town it’s Range Rover and Mercedes G types. Totally nutty keeping up with the Jones. See them in front of houses of modest value. But they look good in in the parking lot while they watch their kids sports games on weekends.

 

[JWellington]

A counterpoint: in a boat it's easy to get yourself in a dangerous situation.


If you picked the wrong car for a trip, the worst is probably waiting a day for a tow and paying an exorbitant (by land-based standards) sum of money for that. But if you picked a wrong boat for a cruise and discovered that in the Gulf of Alaska, well, the consequences are likely to be... bad.


Experienced and capable people can afford to cruise in small/barely adequate boats. But someone who retires and goes on his first cruise -- he'd better have a bulletproof boat which will save his ass when he blunders.

Yes, and that's a reasonable thing to do for those who can afford it. Moat objections we see to this is by those who can't afford it. I often post interesting boats, and most negative posts aren't about the boats, but that theyre expensive.

 

[FWT]

In my town it’s Range Rover and Mercedes G types. Totally nutty keeping up with the Jones. See them in front of houses of modest value. But they look good in in the parking lot while they watch their kids sports games on weekends.

One of my homes is in northern CT. Real estate taxes are crazy high, on top of high income taxes and every other kind of tax you can think of. Successful people who COULD buy much more home choose not to, choosing not to bite off the real estate tax cost. On the other hand, they are car crazy. They have at least one expensive car and often several. I saw a table the other day that said CT was the single worst state in the US in terms of real estate appreciation since 2007. So attitudes about appreciating vs depreciating assets don't quite apply when you have high cost of carry and low appreciation. At least, that's the way the folks think about it.

 

[Mac2]

Better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it. If you can buy a used expedition yacht vs a newer/new non expedition (same price), why wouldn't you? A lot of this would depend on how capable you are at fixing things. The same priced expedition yacht would need a lot of work and time to come up to the same level as the newer non-expedition yacht. Systems would be more expensive to fix on the expedition yacht as they tend to be bigger/more robust, but they are usually easier to get to for the diyer. For non-expedition, I would use the same thinking. I would prefer a used more robust vessel, rather than the shiny new vessel-all things being equal.

 

[rslifkin]

If you can buy a used expedition yacht vs a newer/new non expedition (same price), why wouldn't you?

Because there are plenty of use cases where the expedition yacht may be unsuitable. They're often deep draft and fairly tall, which means there are plenty of places they just can't go. Not much of a concern if you're on the West Coast of the US, but on the East Coast it could be very limiting.

 

[Mac2]

Because there are plenty of use cases where the expedition yacht may be unsuitable. They're often deep draft and fairly tall, which means there are plenty of places they just can't go. Not much of a concern if you're on the West Coast of the US, but on the East Coast it could be very limiting.

I guess I'm looking at it like the average sailboat. Tall with a deep draft (keel). Limiting yes, but not a deal killer. I can't get into tight anchorages because of my draft/size, but then again, I don't need to. This was the biggest surprise with my current boat. It opened up many more anchoring opportunities. Headed to the San Juan Islands from Seattle, I used to stress out with my Manatee. At 7 knots, it was always a big decision as to taking the protected route and timing slack tide at deception pass (rarely got it right), or staying on the outside and going straight to the San Juans. That is no longer a question now-straight there. There is always compromises. I think the easy deciding factor is if you like to stay at the dock, or anchor out. I would hate to have to maneuver into a marina all the time with my current boat. Not only difficult, but when you hit things you don't bounce off.

 

[rslifkin]

I guess I'm looking at it like the average sailboat. Tall with a deep draft (keel). Limiting yes, but not a deal killer. I can't get into tight anchorages because of my draft/size, but then again, I don't need to. This was the biggest surprise with my current boat. It opened up many more anchoring opportunities. Headed to the San Juan Islands from Seattle, I used to stress out with my Manatee. At 7 knots, it was always a big decision as to taking the protected route and timing slack tide at deception pass (rarely got it right), or staying on the outside and going straight to the San Juans. That is no longer a question now-straight there. There is always compromises. I think the easy deciding factor is if you like to stay at the dock, or anchor out. I would hate to have to maneuver into a marina all the time with my current boat. Not only difficult, but when you hit things you don't bounce off.

On the East Coast, tight anchorages aren't the only limitation. Draft can be a little bit limiting, but height is a bigger issue. If you're too tall, in some places you end up needing to wait for a lot more bridge openings. And some other areas (like any route in/out of the Great Lakes other than the St. Lawrence) become entirely off limits. Getting into the Great Lakes via the NY Canals requires you to fit under 21 foot fixed bridges, for example.

So it becomes a question of where you want to use the boat. In some places, the tradeoffs that come with most of the super-capable boats aren't a problem. In other places, they are and you'd be better off with other boats.

 

[Mac2]

rslifkin: That would definitely be a deal killer for me if I had to deal with bridges on a regular basis. I do find that my bigger boat with side decks is a lot easier to handle through the locks vs the Manatee with no side decks.

 

[rslifkin]

rslifkin: That would definitely be a deal killer for me if I had to deal with bridges on a regular basis. I do find that my bigger boat with side decks is a lot easier to handle through the locks vs the Manatee with no side decks.

And that gets us to the big thing: knowing what things you need or cannot accept in a boat to narrow down the acceptable designs. I'm of the same opinion about side decks (my 38 footer has pretty decent side decks). Yes, they waste interior space. But many layouts that don't have side decks just don't provide adequate access to move around the boat for line handling, etc.

 

[Art]

Greetings,
Mssrs. c and A. My point is there are scads of 4X4's that ARE used to their full capabilities BUT that "soccer mom" doesn't ever haul anything more than equipment bags or go off paved roads. THAT'S overkill IMO.
I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee and she's tough and dirty.

One of my wife's favorite ever vehicles was a 1987 Jeep Grand Cherokee. Had been owned by very wealthy older fellow she did the books for for years. They had become friends. When he passed in the late 80's - in his will was - "Linda gets my Grand Cherokee with $10,000 for upkeep"! He had had everything you could imagine professionally installed on that rig. Even had one of the first dial phones with squiggly cord to its hand unit affixed next to drivers seat. Front bumper with big winch was a marvel to observe.

 

[Hippocampus]

There are multiple of the LDL Al boats with water drafts of ~4’ and airdrafts <20’, light ice class and transoceanic range. If you shift paradigms from the classic blue water FD boat to this more efficient hull form you have a explorer/expedition vessel doing the US and European canals.

 

[ksanders]

Better to have it and not need it then need it and not have it. If you can buy a used expedition yacht vs a newer/new non expedition (same price), why wouldn't you? A lot of this would depend on how capable you are at fixing things. The same priced expedition yacht would need a lot of work and time to come up to the same level as the newer non-expedition yacht. Systems would be more expensive to fix on the expedition yacht as they tend to be bigger/more robust, but they are usually easier to get to for the diyer. For non-expedition, I would use the same thinking. I would prefer a used more robust vessel, rather than the shiny new vessel-all things being equal.

You are entirely correct. More robust is better.

My argument is if you cannot afford the expedition yacht without working later into life, the "normal" production boat you might already have is just fine for cruising along a coastline pretty much anywhere.

My recommendation is to go cruising at a reasonable age, in whatever boat your finances dictate. If you wait too long in life you risk loosing the dream for a variety of reasons, mostly health related for you or a loved one.

I went out at 60 right after my birthday. Walked away from a career I was good at, making a bunch of money. I left in the boat I had, and quit dreaming of the nordhavn down the dock.

I am far from "rich" but I have enough, and am living the dream. The years of freedom between 60 and a "normal" retirement at 65 (with a expedition yacht to show for it) are of immeasurable value. Time is the one commodity that we cannot replace.

 

[Hippocampus]

I also retired at the peak of my career and earnings. My ex partner is still working at my age. Two issues. One is some people are so invested in their work life early retirement is scary. They think their social life, esteem in others eyes and sense of self worth will disappear. Thy believe they won’t know what to do with themselves in retirement.
Second is physical. Ocean makes physical demands. As you age you’re less tolerant o those demands.
We did our ocean first while we were physically capable and emotionally tolerant of those demands . That’s when you need the “A” boat. Now older have the “B”. This morning we’re anchored in great salt pond. A N43 and a N60 behind me. A Defever to port and some sort of express on my right. We all had the same glorious sunset last night.

 

[Mac2]

Kevin: Well stated. Also, thanks for the inspiration-I too want to do the, "Alaska to Sea of Cortez" cruise. I am that guy right in the middle. I owned a Krogen Manatee and retired at 55. My dream was a steel go anywhere boat. I would have been happy cruising the inside passage, but would have always regretted not going for the dream. I opted for part-time work and my current boat. I live aboard now-absolutely love it (I'm at the end of a dock with wonderful views). I don't think people should underestimate how spectacular it is just to live on a boat at the dock. Of course it can't compare to cruising. Hopefully, I will have all my projects done by next year. At 60 very doable. Had I been older, I would not have made the same decision to get a bigger boat. I've said it before, but you have to take into account a couple of years to get to know your boat and then figure out what systems you want to change/upgrade. I feel blessed I had the Manatee and had the opportunity to have the choice to purchase my current boat. You can't go wrong either way-you have a boat!

 

[ksanders]

Kevin: Well stated. Also, thanks for the inspiration-I too want to do the, "Alaska to Sea of Cortez" cruise. I am that guy right in the middle. I owned a Krogen Manatee and retired at 55. My dream was a steel go anywhere boat. I would have been happy cruising the inside passage, but would have always regretted not going for the dream. I opted for part-time work and my current boat. I live aboard now-absolutely love it (I'm at the end of a dock with wonderful views). I don't think people should underestimate how spectacular it is just to live on a boat at the dock. Of course it can't compare to cruising. Hopefully, I will have all my projects done by next year. At 60 very doable. Had I been older, I would not have made the same decision to get a bigger boat. I've said it before, but you have to take into account a couple of years to get to know your boat and then figure out what systems you want to change/upgrade. I feel blessed I had the Manatee and had the opportunity to have the choice to purchase my current boat. You can't go wrong either way-you have a boat!

Nice boat, and perfect timing for your adventure!!!

 

[Bob Cofer]

Here is an excellent read about cruising the West Coast of Vancouver Island in a very small boat.

http://blog.tadroberts.ca/2022/10/c...vancouver-island-by-m-wylie-blanchet/#respond

 

[SteveK]

Here is an excellent read about cruising the West Coast of Vancouver Island in a very small boat.

Cruising the West Coast of Vancouver Island by M. Wylie Blanchet.

OMG, they used something called a compass and paper charts. Thanks for posting.

 

[tozz]

Because there are plenty of use cases where the expedition yacht may be unsuitable. They're often deep draft and fairly tall, which means there are plenty of places they just can't go. Not much of a concern if you're on the West Coast of the US, but on the East Coast it could be very limiting.

Great thread! Just watched the latest Clifford Rome episode in his "An Achievable Dream" series where he talks about use cases as Mission Statements and how that is critical in his view for choosing the right vessel when looking for long range, expedition style cruising or any style really. If I recall, he calculated that even with the tens of thousands of miles traveled it's less than 1% of the time they've been in really bad conditions with their Delta "Oasis" and over 99% of the time they are at anchor or tied to a dock:

https://youtu.be/LTjJtNhSpqY

-tozz

 

[garbler]

I also retired at the peak of my career and earnings. My ex partner is still working at my age. Two issues. One is some people are so invested in their work life early retirement is scary. They think their social life, esteem in others eyes and sense of self worth will disappear. Thy believe they won’t know what to do with themselves in retirement.
Second is physical. Ocean makes physical demands. As you age you’re less tolerant o those demands.
We did our ocean first while we were physically capable and emotionally tolerant of those demands . That’s when you need the “A” boat. Now older have the “B”. This morning we’re anchored in great salt pond. A N43 and a N60 behind me. A Defever to port and some sort of express on my right. We all had the same glorious sunset last night.

So I’m the misguided chump who has most of my working life building, repairing, running a small yard, owning several boat shops, a Master’s ticket running landing crafts in the Bahamas under MSTS, and crew boats in the oil patches out of Morgan City and finally surveying close to forty years. Through all this time my pocket dream was taking off in a good boat. But I waited too long because I never had the huevos to walk away from my job and do it. Now I’m too old, orthopedically a wreck and dwelling on what I could have done. Don’t make the same mistake and do it before it’s too late. Nothing worse than walking the docks and seeing people doing what I wanted to do all along.

Rick

 

[catalinajack]

Greetings,
Mssrs. c and A. My point is there are scads of 4X4's that ARE used to their full capabilities BUT that "soccer mom" doesn't ever haul anything more than equipment bags or go off paved roads. THAT'S overkill IMO.
I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee and she's tough and dirty.

And you know this how?

 

[guy with a boat]

Greetings,
Mssrs. c and A. My point is there are scads of 4X4's that ARE used to their full capabilities BUT that "soccer mom" doesn't ever haul anything more than equipment bags or go off paved roads. THAT'S overkill IMO.
I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee and she's tough and dirty.

The soccer mom in my house drove a big shiny 4x4 to take our kids to school and sports practice. You couldn’t tell from seeing her that the same SUV took us on ski trips several times a year, was my duck hunting vehicle on muddy 2 track roads, and hauled a boat trailer up slimy ramps. Then it got washed and went back to soccer mom duty on Monday for some people to see and be judgmental about.

I’m sure a few people have seen our boat tied to a dock somewhere and decided with their own magical powers that it is a dock queen. Well, neither is accurate but believe what makes you happy.

 

[SteveK]

Greetings,
Mssrs. c and A. My point is there are scads of 4X4's that ARE used to their full capabilities BUT that "soccer mom" doesn't ever haul anything more than equipment bags or go off paved roads. THAT'S overkill IMO.
I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee and she's tough and dirty.

I am guessing you stepped on a toe or two. The point was missed that scads does not mean all, but means more than majority. This is evident in our urban area.

 

[OldDan1943]

It's your money. Spend it as you wish. I dont care if your 4X4 has never seen dirt and mud. I dont care if your boat never leaves the dock.
It's your money. Spend it as you and your spouse wish. Enjoy life.
I had a sister-in-law who criticized me for the way she thought I spent my money. I got real real tired of her. I sat her down and went over the high points of my charitable giving, my sister and brother were also in the room.
When I was finished, my SIL had no words. I enjoyed stuffing her 'thoughts' down her throat. I am real tied people telling me 'how' I should spend my money. Makes me want to slap them into next week (a southern phrase)
When I was finished, my sister especially, was surprised and proud of me. My SIL saw me in a new light and shut up.
So you see, I dont care how you spend your money. My charitable giving has no admissive fees. I give it to organizations with little or no admissive fees, I give "in kind", not cash.
Sorry, I will shut up. Your money, family first then give to others as you and your spouse wish. (mumble mumble)

 

[Crux]

The final act of service and loyalty your big 4x4 diesel SUV will provide, is to save your life....... if today is the day someone crosses the center line....belt(s) on, of course.
2 Excursions, 2 350's, 2 550's

 

[sunchaser]

The final act of service and loyalty your big 4x4 diesel SUV will provide, is to save your life....... if today is the day someone crosses the center line....belt(s) on, of course.
2 Excursions, 2 350's, 2 550's

Comment - Right on! I'm here today due to my pickup coming out better than the car that crossed a center line and head on'ed me.

Question - I'm amazed that many Roamers are still out there looking good. How have the Al & paint and scantlings,tanks etc heid up over the years?

 

[catalinajack]

I am guessing you stepped on a toe or two. The point was missed that scads does not mean all, but means more than majority. This is evident in our urban area.

And I would venture a guess that the majority of 4x4s are used, not trophies. Many make their observations on what they see in urban, highly-populated areas forgetting the entire north country and construction use. I just drove from Bremerton, WA to Delaware on mostly non-interstate highways. Nearly all of the 4x4s I saw, and they dominated the vehicles on the roads in many places, were obviously used to their fullest potential.

 

[Art]

We run our SUV's on a "pass it down basis".

Linda gets to drive a nice shiny fairly recent year 4wd SUV. I drive her not so shiny previous SUV as my get-around construction business job-estimator 4wd vehicle... usually with rear seats down; loaded with tools, material etc.

Currently... Linda's Lincoln MKT 4wd high horsepower and plush SUV "Black Beauty" does us fine for attendending events and dinners.

My construction job-estimator Ford Explorer SUV "Tuffy" does me just fine! She's got 212K miles on her and she's still raring to GO!

 

[OldDan1943]

I'd like a vintage 4x4 Land Rover, set up for river crossings. There is a company, in the UK, that will use an old LR, 2 door or 4 door, strip it down and totally rebuild it for about 100 grand. They all have a 6 cylinder or 8 cylinder.

 

[ksanders]

So I’m the misguided chump who has most of my working life building, repairing, running a small yard, owning several boat shops, a Master’s ticket running landing crafts in the Bahamas under MSTS, and crew boats in the oil patches out of Morgan City and finally surveying close to forty years. Through all this time my pocket dream was taking off in a good boat. But I waited too long because I never had the huevos to walk away from my job and do it. Now I’m too old, orthopedically a wreck and dwelling on what I could have done. Don’t make the same mistake and do it before it’s too late. Nothing worse than walking the docks and seeing people doing what I wanted to do all along.

Rick

Thanks for posting that candid from the heart comment!