Overkill in boat selection for normal cruising

[psneeld]

I am with RTF on this one...lot's of friends/family that have Range Rovers to Jeeps that occasionally see a gravel road at the worst.

Sure lots of them see less than perfect conditions...but certainly not situations that AWD or a decent 2WD pickup couldn't handle with a bit of skill. Back in the day before 4X4s everywhere, people could actually drive in less than perfect conditions...now they think 4x$ will save them on ice....obviously from the insurance on them, these fools cost us all.

Same with boats.... lots of world class vessels that are day boats, not cruisers.

 

[rslifkin]

I am with RTF on this one...lot's of friends/family that have Range Rovers to Jeeps that occasionally see a gravel road at the worst.

Sure lots of them see less than perfect conditions...but certainly not situations that AWD or a decent 2WD pickup couldn't handle with a bit of skill. Back in the day before 4X4s everywhere, people could actually drive in less than perfect conditions...now they think 4x$ will save them on ice....obviously from the insurance on them, these fools cost us all.

Same with boats.... lots of world class vessels that are day boats, not cruisers.

I've given a few people a near heart-attack by driving my RWD BMW sedan down dirt roads that they were convinced you needed a 4wd truck with plenty of ground clearance to get through. We're talking roads with no significant ruts, a few inch deep standing water crossing on one of them and some 2 - 3 inch tall rocks...

 

[Hippocampus]

Have dragged people in AWD SUVs out of the loose sand on our local beaches. Without limited slip or locking hubs 2 wheel drive is really one wheel and 4 wheel really 2. They tend to just put their foot down until the vehicles weight is resting on the sand and no weight on the tires as they have dug in completely. They don’t know how to rock the vehicle when stuck nor keep up speed straight ahead when in deep, dry powder sand. Until the last one had pick me ups. Now still have a trail rated diesel grand Cherokee with full skid plates. Several times the yuppie has been so obnoxious when I’ve stopped to help I had to leave. After fishing come back to see them floating on occasion. You need some basic common sense and skill. Even that expensive SUV will get stuck without it. Still my bugaboo is people not realizing 4by with get you going but it won’t make you stop. Come ice season see pickups and SUVs littering the sides of the roads.

 

[psneeld]

We did many a beach salvage and the first time I had to vehicle tow a boat trailer on the beach with loose sand the boss coached me through the tire pressure, throttle and gearing. It was way less about 4WD than the rest.

Back to the original statement of overkill, yes...many buy vehicles never used to their "max" even if they do a little "off-roading". Anyone have actual numbers? No...and one would certainly expect different parts of the country to have different polling if ever done. It's not rocket science.

The very same about vessels designed for open ocean yet rarely spend more than a few days if any 100's of miles offshore.

 

[Portage_Bay]

So I’m the misguided chump who has most of my working life building, repairing, running a small yard, owning several boat shops, a Master’s ticket running landing crafts in the Bahamas under MSTS, and crew boats in the oil patches out of Morgan City and finally surveying close to forty years. Through all this time my pocket dream was taking off in a good boat. But I waited too long because I never had the huevos to walk away from my job and do it. Now I’m too old, orthopedically a wreck and dwelling on what I could have done. Don’t make the same mistake and do it before it’s too late. Nothing worse than walking the docks and seeing people doing what I wanted to do all along.

Rick

None of us know how much time we have. Dad gone at 64, brother at 50. If it's important to you don't wait for everything to line up perfectly. Go and do it.

 

[OldDan1943]

Called a "misguided chump"?
Think of all the things he could have called. LOL

 

[Hippocampus]

G you’re no chump. Rather time and again people are faced with conflicting priorities. Most people make good decisions in one facet of life that injure another. Currently have friends who followed the mantra “go early”. Now they can’t physically boat. They have no house to go to. They missed out on their peak earning years. Family can’t absorb them or it’s too big an ask given their pride. Their social circle was cruisers and when they leave that world they’re somewhat isolated. As my admiral reminds me even when I’m in the middle of the ocean by myself I’m still wrong. I’m always wrong.

 

[socalrider]

An Achievable Dream: Expedition Yacht episode

This is an interesting video in the context of this discussion. I've watched it & a couple other videos in his series. They are incredibly comprehensive & thoughtful.

They are also... somewhat paralyzing

Not meaning to throw shade here: Their topic is prepping a large expedition yacht for months of go-anywhere cruising anywhere in the world (including high latitudes). This is something very very few people will have the means, time & skill set to pursue, and the video series shows exactly why.

Pursuant to this thread, I suspect many people envision this style of cruising & never do it because it's so challenging, requiring an extraordinarily complex multi-million dollar vessel, the skills to keep it running, and an annual budget of several hundred thousand.

 

[tiltrider1]

I don’t think the 4x4 is a proper comparison to ocean crossing yachts.

To properly compare this to the OP’s statement one would need to take the buss all their life because they were saving up to buy a raised Jeep Rubicon with full lockers just so they could go on a ski trip. Something that could easily be done with a cheap 2 wheel drive and a set of chains.

The soccer mom driving the 4x4 might be over kill but she has the vehicle, she is not postponing her life to buy the 4x4.

 

[garbler]

G you’re no chump. Rather time and again people are faced with conflicting priorities. Most people make good decisions in one facet of life that injure another. Currently have friends who followed the mantra “go early”. Now they can’t physically boat. They have no house to go to. They missed out on their peak earning years. Family can’t absorb them or it’s too big an ask given their pride. Their social circle was cruisers and when they leave that world they’re somewhat isolated. As my admiral reminds me even when I’m in the middle of the ocean by myself I’m still wrong. I’m always wrong.

Thanks for the kind words and sage advice as usual but it’s being offered by a man who did it ! At 75 years on planet Earth, most of the time my wife says, I’m still kicking myself and holding on to my old ditty bag full of lust. My chance was the day my five man boat shop closed up. Two of my best hands sailed off to Costa Rica and Wangarei NZ, one opened a head shop in N Cal and the other two are longshoremen making more loot than people should for what they do. I owned the shop, trained some and profit shared with all and I got left behind so I’m the chump in my mind. And now I live in MI where boats have two aluminum tanks for a hull and artificial grass. No shrimp, no clams. If they want a volunteer to go to Mars I’m your man.

Rick

 

[OldDan1943]

Socalrider, and a couple of good friends or paid crew.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

As to the original post, everyone's experience will vary. Mine has been that boating enjoyment is inversely related to length overall. My favorite boating experiences were with a 11' 3" whitewater kayak. Some would call it "backpacking" to boat for a week down the Owyhee. I saw it as fantastic cruising in a $300 boat. And it handled 5' breaking surf better than anything larger that I've owned since.

The small dinghys, kayaks, paddleboards, etc., that are strapped everywhere on the deck of fancy yachts are there so that once they get somewhere, they can launch the little boats and have fun. It is hard to get people to realize that it's even more fun if you don't need to have the big yacht. If you do need one, get the smallest possible.

Since this thread "went off the road" into talking about 4x4, I'll put in my biggest gripe about 4 wheel drive vehicles. The only time I yell at the TV is those commercials for 4x4s where they show somebody plowing through a trout stream or ripping across pristine desert. If you want to drive through muddy roads and tear up a hillside for fun, please do it on your own property. It is called "4wheeling," but it is mostly vandalism. Shame on you Ford, Dodge, Toyota, GMC, etc., for encouraging impressionable young male ***holes to engage in property destruction. It's like advertising Rustoleum spray paint by showing guys tagging the side of a building.

 

[bowball]

An Achievable Dream: Expedition Yacht episode

This is an interesting video in the context of this discussion. I've watched it & a couple other videos in his series. They are incredibly comprehensive & thoughtful.

They are also... somewhat paralyzing

Not meaning to throw shade here: Their topic is prepping a large expedition yacht for months of go-anywhere cruising anywhere in the world (including high latitudes). This is something very very few people will have the means, time & skill set to pursue, and the video series shows exactly why.

Pursuant to this thread, I suspect many people envision this style of cruising & never do it because it's so challenging, requiring an extraordinarily complex multi-million dollar vessel, the skills to keep it running, and an annual budget of several hundred thousand.

His videos are brilliant.

Interesting take aways are 1. GRP over steel or aluminum for this size. 2. Full displacement single engine with back up. 3. Aft pilot house not forward for tender safety and size efficiency and visibility.

I love the davit system he has for launching a tender versus the crane. Also his belief a smaller one for beaching used far more often in PNW and the reverse true on east coast.

 

[Mako]

@bowball, go thru the video again and you’ll see he highly favors fore pilothouse over aft.

The video is extremely informative but you need to take away information applicable to your situation instead of just towards building a $9M yacht.

Funny thing about the video however is that everything he highly recommends is exactly what HIS boat is. Law of nature states that every boat is a compromise, yet his is a absolutely perfect. So I’d like to see more about the honesty of lessons learned.

 

[Hippocampus]

At least in sail for boats <~60’ aluminum is greatly preferred over grp for high lat. Look at the multiple designs of Ed Joy to see why. Greater abrasion resistance than glass without the weight penalty of steel. Stretch rather than fracture or puncture with point impacts. Easier to get ice or light ice class certification. Easier to do standpipes and seachests than can tolerate internal freezing or have freezing prevented.

 

[bowball]

@bowball, go thru the video again and you’ll see he highly favors fore pilothouse over aft.

The video is extremely informative but you need to take away information applicable to your situation instead of just towards building a $9M yacht.

Funny thing about the video however is that everything he highly recommends is exactly what HIS boat is. Law of nature states that every boat is a compromise, yet his is a absolutely perfect. So I’d like to see more about the honesty of lessons learned.

Sorry. I meant he favors forward pilot house.

It comes across as very thoughtful and sincere and based on decades of living/cruising on it. Very nice boat too. The draft and docking ease would be my complaints. Love the tender launching though - except one side only - but so is mine reallly.

 

[socalrider]

@bowball, go thru the video again and you’ll see he highly favors fore pilothouse over aft.

The video is extremely informative but you need to take away information applicable to your situation instead of just towards building a $9M yacht.

Funny thing about the video however is that everything he highly recommends is exactly what HIS boat is. Law of nature states that every boat is a compromise, yet his is a absolutely perfect. So I’d like to see more about the honesty of lessons learned.

He did mention one interesting thing; that his flybridge is their least utilized space. Didn't say it outright but sounded like he wished he'd not added the flybridge in retrospect.

I'm not surprise he thinks his boat is perfect - he'd done tens of thousands of miles before in a large Hinkley, and spend 3 years researching before building this boat. It *should* be perfect (in his eyes, for his mission statement).

 

[tozz]

They are also... somewhat paralyzing

Not meaning to throw shade here: Their topic is prepping a large expedition yacht for months of go-anywhere cruising anywhere in the world (including high latitudes). This is something very very few people will have the means, time & skill set to pursue, and the video series shows exactly why.

For sure I totally agree, it can be paralyzing if this is your dream/goal. I keep wanting to compare my boat to Oasis but that's not productive at all!

On the other hand if it's not, then my takeaway was know your objectives and goals and get the right "tool for the job" and that you don't need this type of expedition vessel if you are doing coastal cruising and he says as much. Back to the topic, plenty of boats can coastal cruise just fine. We know a couple in our boating club that took a Bayliner 3288 from Seattle to BC and often into AK almost every year for something like 38 years.

cheers
-tozz

 

[Mako]

My wife and I both really like the Bayliner 3888. Except I didn’t like the engine access which was really tight

 

[Mac2]

@bowball, go thru the video again and you’ll see he highly favors fore pilothouse over aft.

The video is extremely informative but you need to take away information applicable to your situation instead of just towards building a $9M yacht.

Funny thing about the video however is that everything he highly recommends is exactly what HIS boat is. Law of nature states that every boat is a compromise, yet his is a absolutely perfect. So I’d like to see more about the honesty of lessons learned.

Exactly! He makes great points that are applicable to a new build. Not relevant to those of us that can't afford a new boat. Example: Every single screw/bolt etc. going through fiberglass is a weak point for water to enter and start doing damage to the core. When you compare a steel boat with welds and fewer screw/bolt holes and no core to rot-a clear advantage to steel. I can say with out a doubt, my steel boat has much less maintenance then my previous fiberglass boat. I too would have gave him more credit if he had mentioned the obvious weakness' of his boat. I don't like the two arms to lower the big dingy. If they can be used individually (redundancy) then I absolutely love them.

 

[tozz]

---snip---
Funny thing about the video however is that everything he highly recommends is exactly what HIS boat is. Law of nature states that every boat is a compromise, yet his is a absolutely perfect. So I’d like to see more about the honesty of lessons learned.

That is a great idea. I would also like to know after all of the lessons learned and brought forward into the building of Oasis what are the things he would do different. Maybe I'll try to DM him and see if he responds and could produce an episode on that topic.

We have friends with a sister boat to our Nordlund (same hull) and they did an extensive 2 yr refit. At one point the owner told me that the only two things original to the boat were the two Lugger mains. They would tell you they'd do some things differently even though they pretty much gutted the vessel and planned out the refit to their exact specifications with all their lessons learned from years of cruising both sail and power.

-tozz

 

[jbinbi]

As to the original post, everyone's experience will vary.
Owyhee.

Easily one of the best analysis of what is need for an expedition boat. If you generalize it some more, it would be a fantastic analysis to use before any boat purchase. Amazing work this guy did, and can't imagine the effort of making this video.

Specifically , he says you need to be answering the question, 'what/how will you use the boat'? before making a purchase, and that holds true for any boat purchase!

I would venture to guess that only a fraction of people who purchase an expedition boat really use it to be out of sight of land for 5+ days. That doesn't mean if you are doing coastal cruising you shouldn't purchase one, that is a personal decision. No different from the 4x4 truck discussion. It is a well known fact that the majority of truck and 4x4 owners would be much better served by a minivan. Much less $ to buy and to maintain, and for the exception of very tall objects, pretty much carries as much or more. They actually use the features of the truck very infrequently, and financially would be better off renting a truck for those few times they need it.

But not the same image driving the truck vs a minivan. Just look at what truck commercials are about.

And the same for the boat. Your life, your $, your decision. I am sure there are many who have an expedition (Nordhaven, etc) who only coastal cruise but dream of doing bluewater. Good for them! Hopefully one day they will, and in the meantime, they love their boat and won't need a new one.

 

[smitty477]

Easily one of the best analysis of what is need for an expedition boat. If you generalize it some more, it would be a fantastic analysis to use before any boat purchase. Amazing work this guy did, and can't imagine the effort of making this video.

Specifically , he says you need to be answering the question, 'what/how will you use the boat'? before making a purchase, and that holds true for any boat purchase!

I would venture to guess that only a fraction of people who purchase an expedition boat really use it to be out of sight of land for 5+ days. That doesn't mean if you are doing coastal cruising you shouldn't purchase one, that is a personal decision. No different from the 4x4 truck discussion. It is a well known fact that the majority of truck and 4x4 owners would be much better served by a minivan. Much less $ to buy and to maintain, and for the exception of very tall objects, pretty much carries as much or more. They actually use the features of the truck very infrequently, and financially would be better off renting a truck for those few times they need it.

But not the same image driving the truck vs a minivan. Just look at what truck commercials are about.

And the same for the boat. Your life, your $, your decision. I am sure there are many who have an expedition (Nordhaven, etc) who only coastal cruise but dream of doing bluewater. Good for them! Hopefully one day they will, and in the meantime, they love their boat and won't need a new one.

"But not the same image driving the truck vs a minivan. Just look at what truck commercials are about."
I could not have pulled the trailers (including the boat trailer), had the same resale value, or received the same tax write down with a minivan.
YMMV

 

[jbinbi]

Didn't say you. Said that large majority. Well known fact in auto industry. Trucks have great margin vs. cars. It is why they are sold on emotion (though in reality, everything is marketed on emotion). Do contractors need trucks. Of course. Do people pulling 10k trailers. Of course. Hauling stuff every week. Sure. These people NEED them.

Then the 2 guys in my office who have never taken their truck off road, never hauled anything other than a piece of furniture every few years, etc. etc. Can't easily find good parking spaces. Terrible gas mileage. These guys WANT them.

OK by me. Their choice, their life, their $. Keeps Ford in business.

 

[smitty477]

Didn't say you. Said that large majority. Well known fact in auto industry. Trucks have great margin vs. cars. It is why they are sold on emotion (though in reality, everything is marketed on emotion). Do contractors need trucks. Of course. Do people pulling 10k trailers. Of course. Hauling stuff every week. Sure. These people NEED them.

Then the 2 guys in my office who have never taken their truck off road, never hauled anything other than a piece of furniture every few years, etc. etc. Can't easily find good parking spaces. Terrible gas mileage. These guys WANT them.

OK by me. Their choice, their life, their $. Keeps Ford in business.

Maybe yes and maybe no - small business owners who can utilize the tax rules on #6500 GVWR and can also enjoy a higher truck % resale in 2-4 years would have made out well.

 

[Crux]

But, it doesn't sound like its 'ok' by you.....sounds way too woke to me to be stating what you think I need....

 

[Crux]

Well, geeze....why not ask the guys in the office why they LIKE them??.....could be just a comfortable, upright driving position.. good mirriors.....easy to get in and out of....not climb down and in, then sit as though living room couch with legs straight out.....maybe fuel mileage worth the price even if you never 'use' any other attributes??

 

[socalrider]

There's a (possibly apocryphal) story that Enzo Ferrari said: the only true American sports car is the Jeep. Meaning (in my interpretation) that it's a vehicle designed with no practical considerations beyond the owner's enjoyment.

Nobody buys cars or boats because of "needs", we buy because of "wants". Otherwise the world would contain nothing but Hiluxes, minivans, Corollas, and commercial ships.

The real point of this thread is not to bash someone who buys a Nordhavn for coastal cruising (or a 4wd to get to work), it's to point out that lots of people don't buy *anything* because they think they *need* a Nordhavn when, in most cases, a much less expensive vessel will do the job just fine.

 

[KnotYet]

Didn't say you. Said that large majority. Well known fact in auto industry. Trucks have great margin vs. cars. It is why they are sold on emotion (though in reality, everything is marketed on emotion). Do contractors need trucks. Of course. Do people pulling 10k trailers. Of course. Hauling stuff every week. Sure. These people NEED them.

Then the 2 guys in my office who have never taken their truck off road, never hauled anything other than a piece of furniture every few years, etc. etc. Can't easily find good parking spaces. Terrible gas mileage. These guys WANT them.

OK by me. Their choice, their life, their $. Keeps Ford in business.

As a Ford F250 owner, I agree with your statements. No empty pickup for me.
My pickup has a camper on it and only gets used as an RV, which it is good at.
It is my last choice for any non-camping use, but we have other vehicles to use.

 

[garbler]

I’m still running my 1997 F350 Crew Cab 7.3 with 545,000 miles. When I bought it there were very few crew cabs but of course today they are ubiquitous. I take care of my equipment out of habit but honestly I could never afford to buy anything close to equivalent today either in construction but mostly price. I can’t imagine paying more for a truck than my first house. But I bought it to tow and I’d bet there is not much more than 10K miles unhitched. I run two large gooseneck trailers and the old girl does the job and has paid for itself.

I can’t argue with those who want more boat than they need. If they can afford it and want it for whatever reason my take is that it keeps my friends on the waterfront in work. Those big expedition style or any large custom or semi-custom yacht employs lots of skilled hands. Working in those shops unlike laying up and assembling ( I did not say fitting up ) any cookie cutter production boat is mind boggling boring. But the custom shops offer and develop skilled workers which like an incubator raises the level of the work force. So I’m in favor of those with boat buying money to help the marine trades and the associated equipment manufacturers.

A bi-product of the trawler style yacht business is that segment of the populace that just want to live on the water. People who cannot afford coastal or waterfront homes or condos find it an affordable option. Living aboard is much less expensive and provides a built-in community. Live aboards are usually a tight knit bunch unlike many neighborhoods. The downside is that too many don’t realize or refuse to accept that floating vessels require more than mowing a yard and doing household chores. They float, they sink, they must be hauled out a require much more maintenance. It’s a life style decision and entails much more risk. I guess I’m not saying anything that you all don’t know but I talk too much. One minute aboard seeing hanging plants, three TV’s, rocking chairs etc.andjt pretty obvious the boat is a house and not a sea conveyance.

Rick