Propane On DEmand Water Heater

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Cargile

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2022
Messages
202
Vessel Name
Quasimodo
Vessel Make
Cargile Cutter
I removed the rusted out water heater from the engine space. I want to replace it with a Campulux 10L/min outdoor portable mounted on the bulkhead. Concern is the propane exhaust. I imagine that with Navy showers the unit would be on for around 60 seconds per shower. Would the exhaust be a concern if not vented overboard? I prefer not to cut a hole in the hull. A 13.5 K BTU roof AC is in the overhead in the shower. When the shower or head is not in use it blows air forward into berthing and aft into the cabin. With both doors closed it would be circulating a lot of air in the head albeit it just may be re-circulating. A 3 burner propane stove top is in the cabin. Never had an issue with using it. Advice please. Thanks.
 

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One problem with some on demand heaters is is they only work with enough flow/pressure.

The new one I got in my RV is so finicky that you have to set the temp you want and ONLY use hot water. If you adjust with cold, it reduces the hot flow rate and shuts off the hot. If you take Nany showers the lag in starting and stopping shoots you phases of cold water only....which wastes water in the long run. In my mind, unless I found one that works a lot better than this concept, or only in a house, I would stick with a tank heater
 
Installing a propane WH on a boat is bad enough, but not venting it is crazy IMO.

Just look at what it takes to protect a boat with just an unvented stove: a solenoid shutoff valve and a gas detector. Your WH will have nothing.

So cut the hole and run the vent outside. You can also wire the solenoid (you have one, right?) to open when the WH fires and shut off when it doesn’t.

Doing both would make it a reasonably safe installation.

David
 
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Exhaust vent is a very serious concern due to CO poisoning, but in all honesty, not the primary concern ---- not even close. Propane leaking into your bilge is creating an explosion risk is, by far, a more serious concern. You have to decide what problem you are trying to solve. Maybe TF Contributor RSLifkin will find this thread - he runs a 38-footer with gas engines and would know much more about ignition protection systems than I do. Ironically, it may be safer to run propane on a gasser than a diesel as a result, but only a guess.

I'm reminded of the old story of the paratrooper who jumps out of the plane. His main chute malfunctions; and his secondary chute also fails. As he's falling he sees a speck rocketing upwards as fast as he's going downwards. He realizes it's a man who will pass very closely to him. As he does, the paratrooper yells out "Hey!!! Do you know anything about parachutes????"

Holding a regulator in his hand, the man replies: "No! Do you know anything about propane water heaters???"

Peter
 
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I would only do it if it's a heater specifically designed to meet marine standards. At a minimum, the combustion chamber needs to be completely sealed with bot intake and exhaust to the exterior of the boat. And there are keep-away distances from the exhaust/intake from hatches and other openings into the boat. Then a sniffer is required with auto shutoff, continuous unbroken gas line run from tank to appliance, etc.


This is one case where RV does NOT equal boat. In an RV, leaking gas spills out of the RV to the ground and dissipates. In a boat leaking gas collects in the bilge where any spark from normal electric switch operation can ignite it. There are good reasons for the different requirements, and it's why you never see gas fridges or HW heaters on boats anymore when they are commonplace on RVs.
 
Surveyors: Nah, they get very excited about that stuff. Taking a picture and then sending it to other surveyors to tell them about the craziest thing they saw on a boat is commonplace.
 
One problem with some on demand heaters is is they only work with enough flow/pressure.

The new one I got in my RV is so finicky that you have to set the temp you want and ONLY use hot water. If you adjust with cold, it reduces the hot flow rate and shuts off the hot. If you take Nany showers the lag in starting and stopping shoots you phases of cold water only....which wastes water in the long run. In my mind, unless I found one that works a lot better than this concept, or only in a house, I would stick with a tank heater
One problem with some on demand heaters is is they only work with enough flow/pressure.

The new one I got in my RV is so finicky that you have to set the temp you want and ONLY use hot water. If you adjust with cold, it reduces the hot flow rate and shuts off the hot. If you take Nany showers the lag in starting and stopping shoots you phases of cold water only....which wastes water in the long run. In my mind, unless I found one that works a lot better than this concept, or only in a house, I would stick with a tank heater


Thanks. What brand is your "finicky unit"? Also I wonder what is the temp range to which you can set the hot water? How low really, to make it comfortable? A spurt/phase of cool water directed at the sump, I don't believe would be wasteful. A issue with the tank heater is the space it takes up in the engine space. I may be MacGyvering here to much. For the first 50 years my boat had a tank heater. Have not had the opportunity to talk to any with my boat and a tank heater. I have read some of the other responses and they trend to the negative to my idea. Considering.
 
I think the main problem is the automatic ignition system. It would light the burner unattended. That's why a propane stove/range on a boat is fine with proper safeguards while a propane refrigerator isn't a great idea. The fridge opens the gas valve and tries to light it whenever it needs to, even if you're not on board.

James
 
Thanks. What brand is your "finicky unit"? Also I wonder what is the temp range to which you can set the hot water? How low really, to make it comfortable? A spurt/phase of cool water directed at the sump, I don't believe would be wasteful. A issue with the tank heater is the space it takes up in the engine space. I may be MacGyvering here to much. For the first 50 years my boat had a tank heater. Have not had the opportunity to talk to any with my boat and a tank heater. I have read some of the other responses and they trend to the negative to my idea. Considering.

It is a Girard (primarily RVs) brand.

Depending on how long the run to the shower is and how cold the tank water or city water is...that "moment" can use a lot more water than you think because as soon as the tankless heater loses the flow it shuts off and has to reheat the coils too.

I have the water set to 110 deg F for shower comfort and it's just warm enough for most other things too. That's with a very low flow shower head.
 
I think the main problem is the automatic ignition system. It would light the burner unattended.......James


Good point but.......the unit would be secured when not in use. I assume there is a pilot light, propane? of some kind. It would certainly not stay lit when the unit was not in use. Electric coil ignition like a portable kerosene heater? The photo is what I had in mind. It is no larger than a set of scuba tanks. I should call they and see what they have to say about marine/indoor use.
 

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It is a Girard (primarily RVs) brand. Depending on how long the run to the shower is and how cold the tank water or city water is...that "moment" can use a lot more water than you think because as soon as the tankless heater loses the flow it shuts off and has to reheat the coils too. I have the water set to 110 deg F for shower comfort and it's just warm enough for most other things too. That's with a very low flow shower head.


Yeah, that is a real RV unit. About the size of the tank water heater in my 5th wheel. Anyhow, attached is the unit I am considering. I don't know if there are batteries involved.
 

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Cargile - what problem are you trying to solve with this? Expense of marine units with engine-coolant circuit? If so, some of the smaller point-of-use electric heaters might work. Here's a 4-gal Bosch unit for $200. But maybe something else is the issue?
https://www.amazon.com/Bosch-Mini-T...locphy=9052367&hvtargid=pla-310268138350&th=1 Peter


Thanks for the concern. Here is my situation. I have a small, 28' trailer trawler. I can plug it in pierside or on the trailer. It does not have a genset so no 120 VAC underway. A portable inverter generator is planned but that is mainly for the roof top AC. I do have a 3kw inverter on board but don't know how long the Bosch unit would run off my 100 AH golf cart batteries. I think I read the Bosch uses 1200W. Expense is always a concern but this is a hobby at which (reasonable) I don't mind throwing money. As the boat is already plumbed for propane and the tank is directly above the head the Camplux unit looks like a good solution. I called Camplux. There is no pilot light involved. The propane is battery ignited when you depress the button on the shower handle/head. If the water pressure is there, 3 psi it opens the propane flow and ignites it. The danger of fire and leaks is pretty much mitigated. Any line leak would fall into the sump and be pumped over board. No one smokes while sitting on the head (humor). The sink in the head is already plumbed for hot an cold water. Cold water for the Camplux would be tied into the sink cold water line. The hot water line would not be connected. That would mean no hot water in the galley sink but I think that a luxury we can forego. We are not live aboards so we choose our cruising/boating for solely warm weather all year here in FL or summers further north. I would expect our fresh water storage to never be below 70 degrees, the temp of the water the boat sits in. Come to think of it, is a 70 degree shower tolerable? Sure was in my younger days. So a water heater may not be needed after all. But it would be required to entice the Admiral aboard.
 
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Before you make this decision, make sure you are familiar with ABYC rules for installing propane. I understand that there is already propane on the boat. However, you are likely to be surprised by the requirements for adding a second propane appliance.

My biggest concern is that this thread started out by asking if it was ok to cut corners. When it comes to propane, the answer is always no. Propane done right is low risk. Propane done wrong is deadly.
 
Thanks for the concern. Here is my situation. I have a small, 28' trailer trawler. I can plug it in pierside or on the trailer. It does not have a genset so no 120 VAC underway. A portable inverter generator is planned but that is mainly for the roof top AC. I do have a 3kw inverter on board but don't know how long the Bosch unit would run off my 100 AH golf cart batteries. I think I read the Bosch uses 1200W. Expense is always a concern but this is a hobby at which (reasonable) I don't mind throwing money. As the boat is already plumbed for propane and the tank is directly above the head the Camplux unit looks like a good solution. I called Camplux. There is no pilot light involved. The propane is battery ignited when you depress the button on the shower handle/head. If the water pressure is there, 3 psi it opens the propane flow and ignites it. The danger of fire and leaks is pretty much mitigated. Any line leak would fall into the sump and be pumped over board. No one smokes while sitting on the head (humor). The sink in the head is already plumbed for hot an cold water. Cold water for the Camplux would be tied into the sink cold water line. The hot water line would not be connected. That would mean no hot water in the galley sink but I think that a luxury we can forego. We are not live aboards so we choose our cruising/boating for solely warm weather all year here in FL or summers further north. I would expect our fresh water storage to never be below 70 degrees, the temp of the water the boat sits in. Come to think of it, is a 70 degree shower tolerable? Sure was in my younger days. So a water heater may not be needed after all. But it would be required to entice the Admiral aboard.
Is this your Cargile? Interesting looking boat - I can definitely understand the appeal.

Why not replace the old water heater with something similar? Looks like your old one has engine coolant lines. The Isotemp units are well insulated and retain hot water for many hours. They are, however, expensive. Though it would be a drop-in replacement so you'd avoid the bits & bobs needed to adapt the Camplux (propane hose and fittings, leak detector, etc), so it's probably just a couple hundred bucks more.

https://defender.com/en_us/isotemp-spa-15-marine-water-heater

If you're dead-set on propane, you are increasing risk. Best practice (ABYC) is to have propane line be a 'home run' from the propane locker to the appliance, not tee'd off something (presumably your stove). It's unlikely you can install the unit in your engine room to ABYC standards so it's a risk you'd have to accept.

As PSneeld states, these use additional water due to lag of heating. I live across the state from you in St Pete and have used residential ones for years. I love them, but he's right about temp lag.

I know your original question was about exhaust (and that may be an issue - these units burn hot). But there is no way anyone with a bit of marine knowledge is going to give a thumbs-up to this idea without some major work to isolate the propane appliance. Sure, the probability of a fault may be low, but if a fault occurs, impact is extreme, possibly deadly. So you'll have to decide if the risk is worth it to you and your family.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Peter
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I doesn't appear you are familiar with / have reviewed the ABYC reqmts for propane aboard a vessel.
I would find someone ABYC certified to review your plans before proceeding.
Don't assume a RV appliance or installation will be OK on a boat. There are some RV / boat similarities but ABYC reqmts can be very different that RVIA.
 
I'm guessing that your surveyor and insurance company are really not going to be happy.


Oh crap! Am I supposed to have a surveyor and insurance company?
 
On while on demand is an interesting idea you absolutely have to have proper venting of the exhaust. As others mention there is an exhaust heat concern as well. I'm not sure why your marine water heater was problematic. We have a Kuuma which is not an expensive unit and it's been problem free. One thing I really like about the marine water heater is that if the engine runs I get 'free' hot water. The thing holds heat for hours so I can take a shower hours after we run and it's still warm. I'm not sure the cost difference is really that much. The Kuuma unit at Defender is $373, you may find by the time you buy the on demand unit and pumb it that you're not saving a whole lot.
 
I think the main problem is the automatic ignition system. It would light the burner unattended. That's why a propane stove/range on a boat is fine with proper safeguards while a propane refrigerator isn't a great idea. The fridge opens the gas valve and tries to light it whenever it needs to, even if you're not on board. James


Thanks. So, talking with Camplux the unit is battery operated and ignited. Depressing the button on the shower head/handle senses water pressure. If 3 psi or greater it opens the water flow solenoid, opens the propane solenoid and ignites it. Water and propane flow remain on as long as the button is depressed. Concern here is if the propane solenoid fails and propane continues to flow after letting go of the button. Plumbing leaks are not an issue. There is a manual "Y" valve and gauge at the tank. Where the line connects to the heater on the bulkhead will be a manual shutoff valve. As I stated, this valve would remain shut when not showering. I don't know at this point. I am a retired engineer and inherently tinker/build/do it myself. Another thing about ABYC. I am reading mention of their LPG (propane) installation standard on a boat. They want a fee for it. I knoiw they are a pay for play outfit. I have collected a lot of ABYC standards from here and there but not this one. Some one posting a pdf would be nice.
 
On while on demand is an interesting idea you absolutely have to have proper venting of the exhaust. As others mention there is an exhaust heat concern as well. I'm not sure why your marine water heater was problematic. We have a Kuuma which is not an expensive unit and it's been problem free. One thing I really like about the marine water heater is that if the engine runs I get 'free' hot water. The thing holds heat for hours so I can take a shower hours after we run and it's still warm. I'm not sure the cost difference is really that much. The Kuuma unit at Defender is $373, you may find by the time you buy the on demand unit and pumb it that you're not saving a whole lot.



Other than the thing (original heater) was rusted and in-op, okay. When I removed it I also removed all the plumbing and electrical. I can readily re-install both. I have looked at a 6 gal Kuuma at $271. That is what the Camplux unit costs which is not marine or indoor use rated or anything to do with ABYC. After reading all the responses, none of which said "yeah, go for it" I may heed advice and buy a Kuuma. We will sleep better as will those berthed in the slips next door.
 
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I was just looking at the Kumma as a replacement, we have an A/C only water heater right now. It seems like a good option with heat exchanger for the price.
 
First I would submit what you want to do to your insurance company and ask them if it is ok. My guess is not. Then read and understand the ABYC recommendations in regards to propane. Then think about how you would feel if there was a propane leak and someone was injured or killed due to an improper installation. How would you feel about that. Then decide to either put in a marine water heater or take cold showers. Once it explodes you can’t go back and modify it. I don’t want to be the nasty guy but I have seen a boat explode and it isn’t nice.
 
The only people I know that have propane water heaters have them mounted on deck so there's no possibility of propane getting inside.
Some boats with propane cooking, and a couple vehicles transporting gas grills.
 

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That is what the Camplux unit costs which is not marine or indoor use rated or anything to do with ABYC. After reading all the responses, none of which said "yeah, go for it" I may heed advice and buy a Kuuma. We will sleep better as will those berthed in the slips next door.


Posts 5 & 6 give summaries of ABYC requirements.
 
My previous boat had a propane fired hot water tank. The 2016 survey said Bosch propane fired tank in closet [reportedly not in use]. The gas line feeding it was charged and ready to go. The unit required a pilot light flame on in stand by for when there was demand. It was well rusted, unknown how many years since installation. The boat also came with a propane heater. Neither propane device was sited as an unapproved installation. The propane sensor alarm did not work.
Three items removed soon after purchase.
Propane stove was Magic Chef replaced due to age, even though operating fine.

OP, don't do it. Be safe.
 
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