Replacing a Ford Lehman SP135

[Larry M]

All this talk about old engines vs new engines got me thinking (not always a good thing).** Our SP135 is running great but I have wondered what it would cost*to rebuild or replace it.**I got an estimate from*a Ford Lehman dealer to do a total rebuild for $9,800.00.* This doesn't include removal or re-installation.

I have looked at Lugger*and John Deere Engines but haven't been able to get a handle on costs yet.

Has anyone out there replaced a Ford Lehman 120 or 135?* Total costs?* And how much more fuel efficient is the new engine?*

When I look at the new engines fuel curves I'm not sure I see any greater efficiency.* When I look at the Luger site, it looks like the best engine for us with out to much engine would be replacing our six cylinder with a four cylinder.

Any comments would be appreciated.

Larry/Lena
Hobo* KK42
La Cruz, Nayarit, MX

 

[Marin]

Lugger makes a great engine to replace an FL120 or FL135 with. It's naturally aspirated and develops 150 hp IIRC. This engine has been put into a number of GB36s and 42s in this area to replace the Lehmans. If it was at all cost-effective to replace our engines--- and it isn't--- this is the engine we would use.

There may be actual cost figures in the Grand Banks owners forum archives as several members have done this over the years but I don't recall any numbers myself. But it's not an inexpensive proposition. I believe--- but I could be way wrong--- that the Lugger engine itself is more than $20,000 and very possibly a lot more. But that's just the begining. You'll probably have to have new engine supports fabricated, either for the boat or for the engine. You may have to get a new transmission along with the engine. And then there is the labor to get the old engine out and the new one in, setup, and aligned.

The new engine may well require all new controls to be installed, too.

American Diesel marinizes a newer Ford diesel that is an exact drop in replacement for the FL120. I don't know if the engine mounts are the same for the FL135--- if they are than the new AD engine can be used to replace it, too. There are a few people on the GB owners forum who have replaced a failed Lehman in their twin with one of these AD engines. Despite the horsepower difference, this apparently works quite well. The AD is, like the Lugger, 150 hp IIRC.

The AD engine used to cost $12,000 but I've been corrected on that recently--- I think the engine is up near $14k or $15k today. The advantage is that you don't have to change the boat's engine-mounting setup. The AD engine will mount the same way the Lehman did.

I don't know anything about the base engine AD uses, so I don't know if it represents any sort of weight, smoothness, noise, efficiency, or extended service interval advantages over the old Lehmans. AD's website, unfortunately, doesn't provide much information so you'd be best off calling them.

 

[Forkliftt]

I would be curious what the base engine is. Fuel injector pump used, etc.

 

[Marin]

Here is the photo of the AD engine from their website.* I have been under the impression that they were using a currently manufactured engine as the basis for their marinization*but perhaps they're not.

 

[jleonard]

I have read that the ADC engine is no longer available because the block is no longer made.
If it were me the replacement would be a Cummins 6BT "recon" package at 210 hp that comes with a ZF (Hurth) 63 gear.

 

[sunchaser]

I'm with Jay on* Cummins. Whether new or recon, you'd get a good warranty with the most popular marine engine out there.* Further, I'd take the vessel to Oxnard and have Tony Athens do the install. You'd get a great wriiteup* for the install on his website and add to*your boat's value.

 

[Larry M]

Larry M wrote:

*I got an estimate from*a Ford Lehman dealer to do a total rebuild for $9,800.00.* This doesn't include removal or re-installation.



I just heard back from Lugger/Northern Lights to replace our SP135.* Here are the numbers to compare for a rebuild or replacement:

G'day, Lena and Larry.
*
We would have several recommendations for you to consider, and really what it comes down to is your cruising speed expectations along with the required hours of durability, or cruising range either at normal operating RPM, or for extended range operations.

First, visit our web-site, www.northern-lights, and under Lugger engine models L1064A or L1066T engines copy the brochures, for reference. In addition, for purposes of consumption comparatives, remember that 1 gallon of diesel should produce 20HP at the transmission input shaft, with a 3% estimated parasitic loss in the transmission.

Taking your average fuel consumption of your Lehman Ford, probably somewhere between 2 to 3 gallons per hour, you were using 40-60 HP to cruise your KK-42 between 7-8 knots, and when you compare this to either engine performance, your would be operating your engine at less than 50% of the rated capacity for the engines.

The physical dimensions of the engines will compare very close to your existing Lehman, the L1064A engine would be shorter of course, since it is only a 4 cylinder engine. To elaborate further, both Lugger models begin life as John Deere Industrial engines, then we marinize the engines to suit our requirements which are somewhat different from the standard John Deere Marine engines, also available to you and standard on all current KK models. Since we have been marinizing the Deere engine for 25 years longer than Deere, we think we know something about what is required for our customers, so we continue to use their engine, done our way.

So you will have options, from very limited changes in the scope of supply between your existing engine, 12V, single high amperage alternator, HE cooling, Twin Disc or ZF transmission with a 2 1/2 to 1 reduction gear, wiring harness, panel, wet exhaust elbow, all matching what you have, so it can slip into the engine spaces without any severe compromises. But, what other changes would you wish to make, such as stabilizers, thrusters, dual alternators, drive options for other solutions, and etc, that you would want to incorporate into your repower project?

Pricing will range from $34,500 to $39,000, depending upon the model selected and the transmission requirements, and available accessory options tailored to your requirements.
Fit should be very close to your existing Lehman, and if you wish to receive a quotation, we would first request that your complete the application questionnaire available on the web-site.

I hope that you will continue your interest and respond with a quotation request that results from receiving your questionnaire. You may be directed to one of our offices that may be closer to you, so if an inspection and consultation is necessary, we can accommodate your interest and timing.

Thank you for your interest and we look forward to your response.


Regards, Steve Scholz,
Director, Asia Pacific Marine Market

*

 

[Marin]

Larry M wrote:
Taking your average fuel consumption of your Lehman Ford, probably somewhere between 2 to 3 gallons per hour, you were using 40-60 HP to cruise your KK-42 between 7-8 knots, and when you compare this to either engine performance, your would be operating your engine at less than 50% of the rated capacity for the engines.

*


Thanks for posting the reply you got.* The part I quoted above was particularly interesting to read because this is exactly what was told to me when were inspecting, trialing, and having the boat we bought surveyed twelve years ago.* We had taken a good friend with us to California to look at the boat.* He was the head of Northern Lights's engineering department at the time and had been with the company almost since it's inception as Alaska Diesel Electric.* In talking about fuel consumption of the Lehmans in our boat, he gave me exactly the same numbers in terms of what he figured the fuel consumption would be an the horsepower the engines would be required to generate at cruising speed.* So points to Northen Lights for consistency

*

 

[RickB]

Marin wrote:So points to Northen Lights for consistency*

H'mmm, sounds like they haven't updated the database in 12 years and still provide the numbers for a generic hull regardless of whether it's a KK or a GB.*

 

[sunchaser]

I'd bet that a reman with warranty Cummins 6BT would cost 50 to 60% the Lugger "quote". Remember your weight balance too, a lighter engine would require some lead to be added.

 

[Larry M]

sunchaser wrote:

Remember your weight balance too, a lighter engine would require some lead to be added.

The dry weight of the 6 cylinder SP135 is 1080 lbs less transmission.* Surprisingly, the weight of the Lugger 4 cylinder L1064A is around 1150 lbs.* The place I would have to add more weight would be my wallet.*

The idea though of going from a 6 cylinder to a 4 cylinder is*different though.

Larry/Lena
Hobo KK42
La Cruz, Nayarit, MX

*

 

[Marin]

RickB wrote:Marin wrote:So points to Northen Lights for consistency*

H'mmm, sounds like they haven't updated the database in 12 years and still provide the numbers for a generic hull regardless of whether it's a KK or a GB.*

That I don't know. The Northern Lights friend gave us the numbers saying it was a very rough rule of thumb calculation.* In our case the "formula" was presented as a means of estimating how much fuel the boat we were looking at would burn at cruise.* I* wrote it down in an e-mail I sent to myself and saved.* Here it is.* The 1600 rpm = 60 hp is based on the Lehman engines that are in the boat.

1 gallon per hour per 20 horsepower.
1600 rpm = 60 hp
60 hp = 3 gallons
2 engines @ 3 gph each = 6 gph total @ 1600 rpm

I realize that a truly accurate calculation will be dependent on hull configuration and a bunch of oher variables.* But I'd be curious to know if this rough forumula is at least in the ballpark or is way off base.* It seems to jibe with what we have observed for fuel burn in our boat, but all we have to judge this by is a fuel gauge on the center tank that the engines draw from.* We don't have a FloScan or anything accurate like that.

*

 

[Codger2]

Marin wrote:"We don't have a FloScan or anything accurate like that."

This certainly is not a criticism of those of you who don't have a FloScan or an
electronic engine but I can say without a doubt, FloScan is one of the best things
I ever added to my boat. No formulas, tables, keeping track of the fuel used vs
fuel taken on, etc. Just look at the gage (after you have calibrated the
instrument) and check the number. Not to mention that if you have a fuel
leak, etc; it will show you that too. They are not cheap, however, but their impact
on your situational awareness is dramatic.




*

 

[Marin]

The problem I see with a Flowscan from your photo is that on our boat the needle would never move more than about its width. And I always get a bit of a heart skip when I look down and see a needle sitting on or near zero

 

[Nomad Willy]

Marin,
How do you know the engine is producing 60 hp at 1600 rpm?

I think it's just a wild guess.

If you knew you were loaded at 60 hp you'd know you'd be burning very close to 3 gph.
But the only way to know how much power you were putting to the shaft is to measure the fuel consumption and apply the 20 hp per gallon rule of thumb. My boat burns 1 gph and uses about 18 hp. Since I've got a 37 to 40 hp engine most skippers would guess I'd be cruising at about the 28 hp level but in fact when I burn half as much fuel as my boat would burn at WOT (7knots) I loose less than a knot (6.15).

Larry,
When we repowered Willy the engine displacement, power and fuel consumption was about the same. Vibration and noise was very noticeably less.


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Friday 12th of November 2010 10:54:08 PM

 

[Codger2]

Marin wrote:The problem I see with a Flowscan from your photo is that on our boat the needle would never move more than about its width.
I have the 0-32 gph gage since at full throttle I will burn a little over 17 gph.

Floscan has units that are calibrated for low consuming engines where the gage graduations are totally different. Here's a twin scan model where the gage can be 0-16gph.



*


-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Friday 12th of November 2010 11:56:32 PM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Saturday 13th of November 2010 09:45:26 AM

 

[Marin]

nomadwilly wrote:

Marin,
How do you know the engine is producing 60 hp at 1600 rpm?

I don't. That was the figure quoted by our engineer friend from Northern Lights/Lugger.* It's also the same figure that has been quoted by our diesel shop, some independent mechanics we've met over the years, and American Diesel.* They all said it's an approximate figure, but they said that's the figure they use for rough fuel consumption calculations for this type of engine.* Notice that it's also within the range recently quoted to Larry by Northern Lights earlier in this discussion.* I figure all these folks must be basing it on something other than just a wild guess but it's not my area of expertise.

As I said, the fuel consumption on our boat seems to bear out the formula.* We don't have a FlowScan but based on what the fuel gauge does on the tank the engines draw from, it appears we are burning about 6 gph (total both engines) at 1650 rpm which is our typical cruise rpm.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 13th of November 2010 02:37:00 AM

 

[sunchaser]

All of the HP suppositions are well and good, but the question is what engines to consider. I still vote for the Cummins 6B . It will*loaf along all day at 1400 to 1600 RPM while delivering the needed HP. It is modern, sturdy, well under rated and extremely cost effective.*Hundreds of thousands (over a million probably) of the Cummins*6 series are in use and are the land based genset of choice for the 80 to 120 kw range operating at 1500 or 1800 RPM.

As an aside, 4 cylinder engines (inherent in the firing order) shake too much for me as compared to a 6.

 

[Larry M]

sunchaser wrote:

I still vote for the Cummins 6B . It will*loaf along all day at 1400 to 1600 RPM while delivering the needed HP. It is modern, sturdy, well under rated and extremely cost effective.*

Any idea what the cost of a new Cummins 6B is?

Larry/Lena
Hobo KK42
La Cruz, Nayarit, MX

*

 

[Nomad Willy]

Larry,
I think the guys are getting mostly too far ahead. Since most yachts don't have the correct amount of power when new (over powered to way over powered) any repower should first consider how much power is truly needed as any excessive power is totally wasted. In Robert Beebe's book Voyaging Under Power the Krogen 42 (it looks like that's what you've got) lists 130 hp for power and the Nordhavn 46 has 101 hp and it's 5 tons and 4 feet more boat. The K 42 requires 50 hp to make 8 knots so I think there's no good reason to repower your K42 with any engine over 80 hp. Five hp per ton of displacement should be enough power for almost any full displacement boat. The 75 hp Deere would seem just fine but way expensive. I'd suggest looking at Sabre/Perkins, Isuzu, Mitsubishi, Vetus, Westerbeke or even a Volvo or Yanmar. And this by no means a comprehensive list of possibilities. Tom White, Marin and others will say I just don't understand and I think they don't understand but the bottom line is you will need to come to your own understanding about engines.
By the way Marin**** .....I just saw a GB 36 w twin 55 hp 4JH Yanmars this morning on Yachtworld.


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 13th of November 2010 01:41:57 PM

 

[Larry M]

DavidM wrote:

I too agree with the 210 hp Cummins 6B. From what I remember from boatdiesel, a factory reman is something like $20K.

We're full displacement so the 210hp is to much.* I think we'll rebuild the SP135 if and when the time comes.* Here's what the $9,800 gets you.

Larry/Lena
Hobo KK42
La Cruz, Nayarit, MX

REMANUFACTURED LEHMAN/FORD DIESEL: ENGINE REBUILD CONSISTS OF THE FOLLOWING*
Machine Work and Parts

Exhaust Manifold/Exhaust ElbowBore Block
Grind and Polish Crank
Reconditioned Connecting Rods
R&R Wrist Pin Bushings
New Pistons/Rings/Pins
New Main Bearings
New Rod Bearings
New Cam Bearings
New Cam Thrust Washers
New Front and Rear Seals
Remanufacture Your Raw Water Pump with Gaskets
New Fuel Lift Pump with gasket
New Circulating Fresh Water Pump with Gasket
New Thermostat and Gasket
New Valves
Grind Seats
New Injector Tips
Remanufactured Injection Pump
New Engine Oil Cooler
New Water Hoses (all)
New Heat Exchanger
New Oil Lines
New Starter

Engine Painted Red
*
*

-- Edited by Larry M on Saturday 13th of November 2010 01:46:33 PM

 

[jleonard]

"We're full displacement so the 210hp is to much"

I so disagree with that comment.
Use the engine at lower rpm. No* issues with a 210/220 6BT no aftercooler.
Run it at 1600 for it's life . No harm done there.

Much better than a rebuild. A rebuild is only as good as the rebuiler. Remember that if you get a rebuild. No shortcuts, do everything necessary and you should be ok.

 

[Larry M]

What's the difference from a rebuilt engine and a remanufactured engine?

Larry/Lena
Hobo KK42
La Cruz, Nayarit, MX


-- Edited by Larry M on Saturday 13th of November 2010 06:26:53 PM

 

[Keith]

Nothing I think, just different terminology for the same thing.

 

[sunchaser]

One very important point - warranty.* A factory reman from Cummins installed by a factory rep is worth its weight in gold. Rebuilt with no factory warranty - you are entering crapshoot territory unless you and/or*the*rebuilder are*the equivalent of a journeyman mechanic yourself. Jay is right, the 6B is designed to run all day at 60 hp and 1500 RPM.

Nothing to lose by talking with Tony Athens about a reman Cummins* - he is great with detailed info and estimate honesty. Also, he*may know of a rebuilder in SoCal who can do your Lehman. And he is just up the coast from you.

 

[FF]

"To elaborate further, both Lugger models begin life as John Deere Industrial engines, "

Which may be a Jap engine they simply purchase, and paint .

Deere sells re-mans for their industrial users , and at least 2x a year offers a "deal" , same price NO Core Required.

Talk to the tractor folks , not the Pri$y marine guys.

The cheapest from New would be the Cummins 6BT .

A look in Boats and Harbors will find the engine NEW for about $6K.

The marinization , if you need a wet exhaust is another grand or so.

Personally I would prefer a Twin Disc for this , and rebuilt would work just fine.

IF I were re engining our Navy 50 I would chose an International DT 466, with the TD tranny.

This with a bit of tinkering should run under $5K.For about a 3-- 6 GPH engine.

Bigger, in the 10- 20GPH area would be a Detroit Ser 60 , and bigger TD.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Larry,I found 2 good replacements for you but I still think you should find an engine of about 80 hp. But both of these engines are good (especially the Isuzu I think) and may be close enough to a rebuild to be a good choice.


1. * * Isuzu 4BG1T.** - 120 hp, 2600rpm, $13,350, 201 cu in, 900lbs.


2. * * SPT *S3230. * * - 114 hp, 3500rpm, $15,800, 180 cu in, 728lbs.


The Isuzu has liners and a reputation of running 40,000 hrs. Price is ready to install in the boat w panel ect. May need an adapter to the BW gear. Has 10" flywheel.


The SPT is related to IVECO and is turbo C and AC. Both engines are 4 cyl.


Both availible at Klassen Engines * * 206 784 0148


-- Edited by nomadwilly on Monday 15th of November 2010 02:36:35 PM

 

[FF]

Any idea what the cost of a new Cummins 6B is?

Factory Marinized or not?

BIG DIFFERENCE !! in $$$$$

Only difference is the truck and marine black boxes are different.

 

[Nomad Willy]

This is to Marin but I thought others may be interested.
I suggested to Marin about 2 yrs ago he repower w Yanmar 55 hp engines for a much lighter boat w better fuel economy and better seaworthyness. He didn't like the idea.
Thought he needed engines w more balls and authority. Anyway while surfing I actually found a GB36 that someone had put 2 55 Yanmars into.



-- Edited by nomadwilly on Sunday 18th of September 2011 06:51:34 PM

 

[Larry M]

nomadwilly wrote:

.......repower w Yanmar 55 hp engines for a much lighter boat w better fuel economy and better seaworthyness.

Yanmars to me are not good trawler replacement engines because of the high rpms.* At the rated speed,*it is a 3000 rpm engine.* Their "powerboat" engines are rated for 4000 rpms.

We have*friends who just re-powered their sail boat with the 53 hp Yanmar*for $19,000 US complete and are real happy.



Larry/Lena
Hobo KK42
La Cruz, Nayarit, MX*

*