Repower Albin 25 with an outboard motor?

[CCT]

Anyone heard of someone doing this? There has to be scores of 25 foot sailboat models that you see on the water every day running at hull speed using their 8 hp auxiliary outboard. Some of these models had inboard diesels as options but the outboard was the standard power.
We cruised for 15 years with such a sailboat and a 7.5 Honda and would make 6 knots on calm days for 12 hours on under 4 imp gallons of straight gas. It did very well in nasty headwinds and against swift currents... at least as well as our current Marine Trader 34 with its 120 hp Ford Lehman.
We are looking at installing an outboard on our new (to us) Albin 25 as an auxiliary but were wondering if the diesel goes south why not use that space for maybe a small genset, extra house batteries, extra storage, tankage, etc.?
Interested in comments on this.

 

[Miz Trom]

Albin 25's carry the motor amidships. If the amidships motor is removed and the outboard weight hanging on stern bracket is too much weight, your boat might incline slightly - bow up.

The new Honda BF8 and BF9.9 only weigh right around 100 lbs (45.35 kg), though, so you could experiment with adding some weight forward.

Interesting idea, given the displacement shape of the Albin 25 and your sailboat experience. I am thinking you would retain the rudder and have the outboard in a fixed position.

I would also suggest a Bob's Jack Plate, to raise and lower the motor, not only for reducing cavitation but also for changing out the gearcase (lower unit) oil without needing to pull the boat out of the water.

Cheers,
Mrs. Trombley

 

[DavidM]

I would look at a 15 hp Yamaha or Honda. These are close to 100 lbs but have .35 liters displacement rather than the typical .22 liters of the 9.9 hp models. Make sure you get a 4 cycle EFI model for decent fuel efficiency.


That engine should easily cruise the Albin 25 at 6 kts, while running the engine slowly and quietly due to its greater displacement than the 9.9s.


David

 

[Nomad Willy]

The big problem w using an OB on a slow craft is the limited prop size. Prop is always too small. But as you say it works .. after a fashion.

If you had the tools and expertise you could graft a bigger OB lower unit on and great things may happen. Perhaps a planetary reduction gear in the housing.

I am an old Albin skipper and thought of using a 40hp OB. My Albin had a 34hp engine and would run at 8 or 9 knots in SD mode. The early A25’s had a much more straight run aft and were faster. One could modify the aft end of the hull and reduce the buttock angle and one could have a good 10 knot boat. But a successful 10-12 knot boat would actually be a worthwile achievement. But it’s very hard to do in normal aspect ratios.

These are some of the thoughts I’ve had re an OB Albin.

I disagree that a 10-15hp OB would be too much weight aft. And putting batts where the old fuel tank was and water and fuel tanks and one could have a variable (fill and-or dump) capacity ballast tank much like the McGreggor 26.

The A25 is such a wonderful boat as is it’s hard to re- arrange it. Especially the engine compartment. And w the small OB how would the Albin be a better boat?

 

[LaBomba]

CCT, welcome to the forum. Did you buy your boat from Brady in Beaverton?

 

[Moby Nick]

I have an Albin-25 powered by her original 35hp Volvo-Penta. I would advise against switching to OB power and removing the inboard engine. Albin-25's enjoy an excellent reputation as they are originally configured. They were designed by Per Brohall, one of Sweden's premier Marine Architects. The 350-lb inboard Diesel serves as a key element in the boat's overall seakeeping performance.

BTW, earlier Albin-25's had the more "displacement" hull powered by a 21-hp Albin motor, contrary to what Nomad Willy posted above. The later Deluxe model, poeered by the 35-hp V-P, have a hull incorporating a "hook" in the run which improves semi-displacement performance.

I suspect that messing around with ourboard power as the prime mover will seriously compromise the resale value of an old boat which still enjoys a solid market.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Moby Nick,
Yes a 21hp “Albin” engine. And the boat was designed for that engine. Unusual.
Also yes the early Albins had a more typically FD hull and the later boats had a wider stern and a bit of a hooked hull aft. I think on the later boats the hook in the bottom forced the bow down to a nearly level attitude causing enough drag to limit speed. The early boats were very different re power applied, speed and attitude or angle of attack. My early hulled boat w 34hp would make 11 knots. With the bow high up and (more importantly) the stern down the bottom aft became fairly horizontal. Much like a planing hull. Hence the 11 knots. The bow was too high for good visibility fwd so it was not a cruising speed. But I ran the boat for the first year at 8.5 knots. Visibility was good at less than 9 knots.

 

[FF]

I think some of these boats were fitted with variable pitch props.

If cost was the concern I think one of the 8-10HP Honda gas engines that can be had with a built in 4-1 or 6-1 reduction gear might be ideal.

Nice and quiet , even tho air cooled , and the prop setup would allow the Fwd -Rev ability . A $100 EGT gauge would allow you great efficiency under way.

Here is an example of an 11+ hp unit. Larger sizes can be had.

https://www.equipatron.com/honda-ho...MI1t2nqOT34QIVyYSzCh24fAeVEAQYAyABEgJqqvD_BwE

 

[Nomad Willy]

FF,
Just an opinion but most or all those “high thrust” little OB’s w 4-1 to 6-1 gears are too much of a good thing .. so to speak. There is such a thing as too low a gear ratio. The high thrust engines may run out of thrust at 4 knots. I think they are designed for trolling while fishing and as a get home when the main dies. Would help if someone could post some top speeds using those engines.

I’ve seen about 50 Albin25’s and never heard of a variable pitch prop installed.

The air cooled engine you posted would be great in a big (24’?) open skiff. Especially w the VP prop. But I’ve never heard of a quiet air cooled engine.

 

[CCT]

Thanks all for the informed responses. Someone did point out this topic had been covered briefly in a forum on a different site that had missed our initial searches. One respondant on that site had a similar experience with his years on a Catalana 25 with an 8 hp motor and was of the opinion that a 6 hp would probably suffice but the 8 is the smallest you can get with electric start. Other than that:

Thanks for the welcome! No we did not buy this boat from Beaverton. Have to look that up to see where it is....

To be clear we are not looking at removing a perfectly good diesel motor and replacing it with an outboard. However, we knowingly bought this boat with a Westerbeke W33 with 4k plus hours and in questionable condition. Some quick research at the time suggested $15k at the absolute low end to repower and close to that for a full rebuild. In our neck of the woods I would be surprised if we got away with $20k. Yet in a day or two I could install a bracket ordered on line and an 8hp outboard obtained locally and be on our way with less than $4k. And I do understand you still need to remove the old engine, shaft, etc. but not until you want or need to. As for resale value I know you never will recover $20k of addition spending put into $15k boat! It will still sell for $15k, may 2K more or it may be a faster sale, but you are still out most of your investment.

There are advantages and disadvantages to what I am suggesting. No more 50 amp alternator, dealing with gas instead of deisel fuel (although do that anyway because of the dink motor), and yes, less thrust and "bite" of the bigger prop and slower turning shaft. But you gain space, ability to carry more weight, much, much easier and cheaper maintenance, quieter operation (yes!), more local parts and expertice, and in a pinch you can swap out a bad motor for a new or used replacement in a few hours from anywhere! I speak here from the experience of 4 years with a 22 Hughs with 2 cycle 9.9hp, 15 years with 7.5m Tanzer with 7.5hp 4 cycle, 4 years with Bayfeild 29 with 15hp Yanmar diesel, and 8 years with Marine Trader 34 with 120hp FL diesel. Three sailboats and a semi desplacement trawler sailing mostly in the North Channel, Georgian Bay and Mackinac staights area. The worst was the B29 with the Yanmar... had everything from big sailboats with small outboards to kayakers pass us in channels, pain to maintain and winterize, and when we had a serious problem we couldn't get a mechanic to come to the boat, and of course couldn't move the boat without a very expensive tow, haulout and 'land tug' trip. The performance and enjoyment of this boat was worse than the Tanzer in just about every way, mostly because of the inboard diesel.

Lastly, as sailors we did not move to the trawler side for speed. Six knots in the direction you want to go (i.e. no tacking) is like warp speed to us. We are not interested in doubling hp (and/or noise) to get 8.5 knots out of a semi displacement hull designed for 7 knots.

 

[FF]

"Just an opinion but most or all those “high thrust” little OB’s w 4-1 to 6-1 gears are too much of a good thing .. so to speak"

My suggestion is to install an inboard Honda yard implement motor not an outboard,,( $700 or so)with a deep reduction and keep the adjustable pitch propeller stuff if its on board.

As much of the use would probably be battery charging , a nice quiet gas engine would be a step up over most diesels.

 

[Jeff F]

I think it could be effective. Yamaha makes a high thrust series including 9.9 and 25 hp. I'd choose the 25.

Think about steering as well. The rudder isn't going to work at low speeds without the prop wash. I'd want steering on the outboard.

Saw a slick arrangement on an old Silverton not long ago. They had a 35 hp outboard for trolling, with a hydraulic lifting mount and an autopilot on the outboard with a jog lever.

Don't discount the space that can be freed up. You can always store water or canned goods where the motor used to be to maintain trim.

 

[DNT99611]

I have a 22 foot SeaSport. It has a high thrust 9.9 Suzuki kicker on it that I use for trolling all the time. It will push the boat at 6 knots in calm weather at 2/3 throttle. I think Merc makes a high thrust 9.9 or 15 with a 25 inch shaft. That would be a good way to go for your needs.

 

[FF]

There are 3 Albin 25 in our neighborhood , the owners brag of using 1/4 gallon of diesel fuel per hour .

That's about 4 HP cruising , if true.

 

[bayview]

An OB would put the thrust behind the rudder making steering going forward at slow speed more difficult.

 

[Nomad Willy]

FF,
I don’t doubt it’s reasonably close to being true but ask them how fast they go. And they are probably using their hour meter to calculate fuel burn. Very misleading and at least many do it here. They don’t feel their running slow time amounts to much .... but it does IMO.

Most 27hp Yanmar powered A25’s burn 1/2 gph at 6 knots.

Also there’s a mental fixation about going slow among A25 owners. Going slow is almost a religious act among most Albin owners in the PNW. It seems to be a reactionary attitude to the overwhelming number of SeaRay-Bayliner boaters in the area. For example they thought I was nuts for going 7.5 to 8.5 knots. HaHa I leave myself wide open w that remark I spoze.

But FF it likely is true but they are probably running 5 knots and calculating w the hour meter too.

 

[ben2go]

I would sign up on the Albin owners forum and read everything. It has been done. Not sure how well though.

 

[Carl Martin]

I have to admit I've actually thought about repowering my Scout 30 with a high thrust version of the Honda 60 instead of a Beta 35. They both cost about the same amount so no savings but getting the noise & vibration out of the boat would be very nice.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Carl,
What’s the gear ratio and prop dia on this high thrust Honda 60?

 

[Carl Martin]

Carl,
What’s the gear ratio and prop dia on this high thrust Honda 60?

2.33-1 gear. Basically they put a 90 hp foot on a 60 so you can swing the same 14" wheel as the 90. I could get a Suzuki high thrust 60 for about half the price but they only offer a 20" shaft & I'd want the 25". I'd swing a 17" prop with the Beta 35.

 

[joeg]

I just completed installing a honda 9.9 high thrust 25 inch shaft outboard after removing the old md17 on my 77 albin 25...Wasnt that difficult a job. Sea trialed it today and was pleased with the results...I got 7 knots top speed.....if anyone is interested ill put a video up on you tube....

 

[Carl Martin]

I'd love to see the video.

 

[jerridsc]

I’d like to see that arrangement and get some spec on performance. Thinking of putting a 25hp Bigfoot on my engineless A25.

 

[Carl Martin]

My average fuel burn over the years is about .5 gallons per hour which I believe is about 10hp pushing a 5.5 ton boat with a 30' LWL at around 6.5 knots. However, there are 2 conditions where I absolutely need way more power, heading into a strong headwind & dealing with a big following sea. Point being a 9.9 may push the Albin 25 just fine in most conditions but there will be times when you'll wish you had more.

Also, the best way to install this would be to remove the rudder & steer with the outboard. With no prop wash hitting the rudder the boat will not respond well at docking speeds where as steering with the outboard will make the boat more maneuverable than it was originally.

 

[psneeld]

Maybe I missed it ......but the advantage of staying with an inboard is you get a big alternator and the possibility of using it to heat water... And run a bus heater if you're in cold climes.

True way more expensive, and there's ways to solve those other problems... but is it really the smart move?

Convenience comes at a price you just have to decide what yours...

 

[Carl Martin]

Maybe I missed it ......but the advantage of staying with an inboard is you get a big alternator and the possibility of using it to heat water... And run a bus heater if you're in cold climes.

True way more expensive, and there's ways to solve those other problems... but is it really the smart move?

Convenience comes at a price you just have to decide what yours...

Those are 2 advantages but not the biggest which is having a bigger prop under the hull where it can never come out of the water. That's why I'd only recommend a long shaft outboard. It used to be that the efficiency, reliability & long life of a diesel were so superior to an outboard that this was not a viable consideration but that has changed dramatically with the advent of the new fuel injected 4 strokes.

Regarding the alternator, once the typical alternator on a diesel gets hot it's output drops a lot. Hot water on boats this small can be heated by solar or a water heater can be run by a Honda.

 

[Nomad Willy]

2.33-1 gear. Basically they put a 90 hp foot on a 60 so you can swing the same 14" wheel as the 90. I could get a Suzuki high thrust 60 for about half the price but they only offer a 20" shaft & I'd want the 25". I'd swing a 17" prop with the Beta 35.

Carl,
As I recall my Albin had an 18” propeller.
14” prop seems seems big on an OB but compared to 18” it’s small. Big diff.

It would ruin your aft cabin (it you have one) but doing some surgery on the boats aft end installing an inbd. engine well would put the prop where it probably should be. The Albin has a nice fine trailing edge to the keel that will be a plus.
I personally don’t like the aft wells and prefer transom mounting.
If you have the later model hull using the 90hp engine (get one used) and running it slow is a very quiet and smooth option. Running a gas engine slow is not the problem the diesel has re stuck rings and glazed cylinders as they run plenty warm. Combustion temp is always high.
But the weight of the 90 must be considered. Probably would need the later Albin hull w the wider stern.

But I think the 9.9 idea on the older hull w/o the rudder would work really fine on the older hull and just a little less so w the later model boat. And if steering directional stability was found lacking one could extend the keel all the way aft to the transom.

 

[Carl Martin]

Carl,
As I recall my Albin had an 18” propeller.
14” prop seems seems big on an OB but compared to 18” it’s small. Big diff.

It would ruin your aft cabin (it you have one) but doing some surgery on the boats aft end installing an inbd. engine well would put the prop where it probably should be. The Albin has a nice fine trailing edge to the keel that will be a plus.
I personally don’t like the aft wells and prefer transom mounting.
If you have the later model hull using the 90hp engine (get one used) and running it slow is a very quiet and smooth option. Running a gas engine slow is not the problem the diesel has re stuck rings and glazed cylinders as they run plenty warm. Combustion temp is always high.
But the weight of the 90 must be considered. Probably would need the later Albin hull w the wider stern.

But I think the 9.9 idea on the older hull w/o the rudder would work really fine on the older hull and just a little less so w the later model boat. And if steering directional stability was found lacking one could extend the keel all the way aft to the transom.

I've actually got a Scout 30, not an Albin. The 14" prop I noted is for a high thrust Honda 60 which is probably a little big for the Albin. A smaller outboard would of course have a smaller prop.

 

[jerridsc]

Have you gotten a video yet of your A25 with outboard? Maybe just some photos would be very helpful .

 

[Bruceboating]

Albin conversion

I just completed installing a honda 9.9 high thrust 25 inch shaft outboard after removing the old md17 on my 77 albin 25...Wasnt that difficult a job. Sea trialed it today and was pleased with the results...I got 7 knots top speed.....if anyone is interested ill put a video up on you tube....

Hey there I have a Albin 25 1970. And I was thinking on doing the same thing. What is your youtube channel. Would love to see what you did. Bruce