Running light bulb for side nav light on 2002 Mainship 390?
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TJM
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Unfortunately, the bulb is determined by the light fixture. A 2002 boat may have had the fixture / socket upgraded. Remove the old bulb and bring it to WM or a local marina. An automotive retail place may even have it in stock.
Delta Riverat
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And get an LED model if available. All kinds of these now fitted with bayonet bases.
jgwinks
Guru
Technically putting an LED bulb in a fixture designed for incandescent voids the USCG approval. This also violates Annex I of COLREGS which specifies the characteristics of nav lights. If you had a collision the other guys lawyer will claim the light caused the wreck, and he will likely win. Even if the new light is way brighter and "better" than the old one, if it's not approved it doesn't exist in that context. If you're converting to LED, it's better to replace the fixtures with approved LED models. On a power boat there's not much advantage to LED nav lights anyway, the engine(s) are running when they're on so power is not an issue. (Except the anchor light.)They make a lot more sense on sailboats.
Comodave
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+1. Absolutely.
jgwinks
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I think I learned that here, probably from you Comodave.
jgwinks
Guru
Not only could the fixtures have been upgraded, the builder didn't necessarily use the same fixtures on all the boats. It's not like a car where they're all the same. You'll just have to pull the old bulb before getting the new one. And might as well replace them all while you're at it, they all have the same hours on them if they're original.
46 CFR 25.10-3(a)(2), a codification of ABYC A-16, states that the bulb must be the same one specified by the fixture manufacturer, presumably to ensure that chromaticity and luminosity specifications are adhered to.
As a practical matter, bulbs aren't marked with any certification so who is to say if a bulb matches the manufacturers original bulb used during certification or not.
Lawyers on both sides could spend hours on the issue, have the bulb sent out for testing, and hire numerous expert witnesses, no matter what bulb was in the fixture. I suspect not having a bulb on at night is far more of a problem than the type of bulb.
All bulbs on my boat are leds. I believe they are advantageous as they are brighter than the older incandescents, use less power, and have a longer life.
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Comodave
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It is your responsibility to ensure that the bulb conforms to the certification. You are the operator and therefore responsible. Can you get away with LED bulbs in incandescent fixtures, yes until you have an accident. Then the insurance company will assign investigators and if it was at night they will check the nav lights to make sure they are compliant. There have been cases just like this where the investigators found the wrong bulb, read LED, and the boat owner assumed more liability. With the cost of new proper LED fixtures it isn’t smart to use LED bulbs in incandescent fixtures. Why risk it for a hundred or so dollars? Then you will most likely be good for the life of the boat. Putting LED bulbs in fixtures doesn’t get rid of corrosion issues like a true LED fixture.
You guys in the US are brainwashed into thinking every crazy issue raised in a lawsuit is going to win. If the improvement made by changing to LED was ever challenged for that reason, even your crazy juries wouldn't buy that argument.
fgarriso
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Comodave
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But the problem is that they do.
fgarriso
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BILL GOOD1
Member
Also noted nav light bulb blown. Small 12v 5W 37mm festoon bulb. 14.2V from alternator so will fit 12V 4 Amp voltage regulator from Amazon to see if that helps. Not convinced LED bulbs last any longer & plenty power with engine running. Some 12 Volt bulbs just won't like 14 Volts.
Regards
Regards
Keysdisease
Guru
The bulbs are specific to the fixture for a variety of reasons. One of the most difficult Colregs specifications is the arc of visibility and the "bleed" beyond that arc. 112.5 degrees each for red and green in this case. Many manufacturers had to go to a vertical filament bulb (festoon) to meet this spec, no one wanted to. They were difficult to source and because of the long unsupported filament and the "active" environment they operate in lifespan was shorter than a "standard" 12v automotive bulb used pre Colregs.
As for voltage, when running an "12v" alternator will charge a battery to 13.8v, that's why most all these bulbs are rated at 14v.
As for voltage, when running an "12v" alternator will charge a battery to 13.8v, that's why most all these bulbs are rated at 14v.
psneeld
Guru
From DrLED website....
Milestones:
• 2005 First to use regulated LED bulbs in the marine market.
• 2006 First and only one to obtain USCG COLREG 1972 ABYC 2NM certified LED aftermarket replacement bulbs for navigation lights.
Milestones:
• 2005 First to use regulated LED bulbs in the marine market.
• 2006 First and only one to obtain USCG COLREG 1972 ABYC 2NM certified LED aftermarket replacement bulbs for navigation lights.
Thanks for the link. DrLED sent bulbs out to IMANNA certification labs in FL. Copy of cert is on web site. For example, the festoon bulb is only certified for usage in the Aqua Series 25 light. (probably the only place it was used)
The non-believers probably won't convert. There is a lawyer lurking behind every tree (or buoy) with light meter in hand and portable spectrometer close by along with a microscope to read the tiny certification print on the bulb (that isn't printed on the bulb)
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psneeld
Guru
I would like to know if kerosene lamp wicks and old running light fixtures are any more inaccurate than new LED bulbs.
If anyone has clouded lenses on their running lights, they should be far more worried about lawsuits after collisions than what bulb is in there...heck, many running light fixtures aren't mounted correctly by the manufacterer....the USCG has submitted that several times in safety bulletins.
If anyone has clouded lenses on their running lights, they should be far more worried about lawsuits after collisions than what bulb is in there...heck, many running light fixtures aren't mounted correctly by the manufacterer....the USCG has submitted that several times in safety bulletins.
jgwinks
Guru
They wouldn't have to show that the lights were in any way deficient, just that they were not approved. To win, you'd have to convince the court that the USCG standards were wrong. Good luck with that.
Coming back at night makes it is obvious who is running weak incandescents with cloudy lenses. I worry more about the drunks who will not see any lights at all rather than if my bulb is stamped USCG certified. (and none of them are)
If you meet or exceed published standards you will not have an issue. Courts are not as stupid as 25 year old regulations.
Comodave
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I copied this from Hella’s website. Since they manufacture running lights they most likely know what they are talking about.
Retrofitting Incandescent Navigation Lamps with LED bulbs is unsafe and illegal.
With all the power-saving and longevity benefits of LED lights, it's easy to see why boat owners replace traditional light bulbs with LEDs. But doing so with navigation lights can violate the fixture's certifications. This has serious consequences, as US Inland Navigation Rules and International Navigation Rules carry the force of federal law.
"A certified navigation light fixture is a combination of a specific lens, a specific bulb and the necessary foundation and wiring. The boat owner or operator must ensure that when bulb replacement is necessary, only the original type bulb is used," said Phil Cappel, chief of the US Coast Guard's Recreational Boating Product Assurance Branch. "Any substitutions can result in the light no longer meeting the Navigation Rule requirements."
A wide variety of replacement bulbs are available, including LED bulb conversion kits. Simply finding one that fits the fixture won't assure the boater of a properly certified navigation light, unless the lamp manufacturer has third party-certified it for their own lamp. Cappel notes that compliance with the Navigation Rules is the boat operator's responsibility, not the bulb manufacturer's.
Industry specifications and certifications are in place for safety. Though seemingly simple, the red, white and green navigation lights are thoroughly tested by a third party for light intensity, color, angles of visibility, corrosion and temperature. "The lamp assemblies are designed and tested with a specific light source," said Brian Goodwin, technical director for the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC).
Precise tests determine if light reaches nautical mile requirements. Light output must also be sharp at the edges and smooth across the arcs of visibility. This prevents light from appearing to flash like a buoy rather than project consistently when the boat rotates and rocks.
Goodwin notes that there are other causes of failure if the owner replaces a bulb with one other than the original type. For example, LEDs installed in a housing intended for a hot bulb may dim unexpectedly. "Unless approved and tested by the light fixture manufacturer, LED retrofit bulbs do not belong in navigation lights," he said.
"Flaunting the law risks lives, insurance and liability," said Jeremy Singleton, Hella marine global manager. "The USCG and ABYC take navigation lighting very seriously. They are considered life-saving devices to avoid collisions at sea and on inland waterways."
The simple solution for owners wishing to upgrade to LED navigation lights is to replace the entire light assembly with a certified product. This ensures their navigation lights are safe, and legal.
Retrofitting Incandescent Navigation Lamps with LED bulbs is unsafe and illegal.
With all the power-saving and longevity benefits of LED lights, it's easy to see why boat owners replace traditional light bulbs with LEDs. But doing so with navigation lights can violate the fixture's certifications. This has serious consequences, as US Inland Navigation Rules and International Navigation Rules carry the force of federal law.
"A certified navigation light fixture is a combination of a specific lens, a specific bulb and the necessary foundation and wiring. The boat owner or operator must ensure that when bulb replacement is necessary, only the original type bulb is used," said Phil Cappel, chief of the US Coast Guard's Recreational Boating Product Assurance Branch. "Any substitutions can result in the light no longer meeting the Navigation Rule requirements."
A wide variety of replacement bulbs are available, including LED bulb conversion kits. Simply finding one that fits the fixture won't assure the boater of a properly certified navigation light, unless the lamp manufacturer has third party-certified it for their own lamp. Cappel notes that compliance with the Navigation Rules is the boat operator's responsibility, not the bulb manufacturer's.
Industry specifications and certifications are in place for safety. Though seemingly simple, the red, white and green navigation lights are thoroughly tested by a third party for light intensity, color, angles of visibility, corrosion and temperature. "The lamp assemblies are designed and tested with a specific light source," said Brian Goodwin, technical director for the American Boat and Yacht Council (ABYC).
Precise tests determine if light reaches nautical mile requirements. Light output must also be sharp at the edges and smooth across the arcs of visibility. This prevents light from appearing to flash like a buoy rather than project consistently when the boat rotates and rocks.
Goodwin notes that there are other causes of failure if the owner replaces a bulb with one other than the original type. For example, LEDs installed in a housing intended for a hot bulb may dim unexpectedly. "Unless approved and tested by the light fixture manufacturer, LED retrofit bulbs do not belong in navigation lights," he said.
"Flaunting the law risks lives, insurance and liability," said Jeremy Singleton, Hella marine global manager. "The USCG and ABYC take navigation lighting very seriously. They are considered life-saving devices to avoid collisions at sea and on inland waterways."
The simple solution for owners wishing to upgrade to LED navigation lights is to replace the entire light assembly with a certified product. This ensures their navigation lights are safe, and legal.
Comodave
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Another article.
We often get questions about the use of LED bulbs in our conventional navigation lights. An honest question, since the approved incandescent bulbs don’t come cheap and consume more power. However, concerning the alternative LED bulbs there is a “but”, a very big “but”: they are simply not approved according the international maritime regulations (Marine Equipment Directiver). This LED-alternative causes that your navigation lights are not compliant and the corresponding certificate’s are no longer valid. Imagine what would happen in a case of collision and the use of inappropriate LED bulbs...
But why doesn’t DHR get an approval for LED bulbs? The answer is simple, it’s not possible to have replacement LED bulb that is suitable for navigational light purposes. The explanation is somewhat technical:
1. An approved incandescent bulb has a wide visible spectrum that can be detected by the human eye. LED bulbs, on the other hand, have more narrow spectrum.
So when a led bulb is used in combination with a coloured lens almost no visible light passes through the coloured lens, especially with red lenses. That’s the main reason why LED replacement bulbs are not approved.
2. Another reason is that the conventional navigation lights are designed and approved to be used in combination with special incandescent bulbs. In case of a sector lantern, the light output won’t be cut-off at precisely the right angle if a LED bulb is used. This can cause a decrease in visibility and thus decrease in safety.
3. Conventional lanterns work with a Fresnel lens. The lamp is designed in such a way, that the filament of the incandescent bulb is exactly positioned in the centre. If you use a LED bulb, (which has several LEDs) the light isn’t distributed correctly by the lens creating an unwanted light output. This makes the navigation light not visible in all desired vertical angles and therefore not safe.
This is why LED bulbs cannot be used in conventional lanterns.
The following diagram shows the difference:
We often get questions about the use of LED bulbs in our conventional navigation lights. An honest question, since the approved incandescent bulbs don’t come cheap and consume more power. However, concerning the alternative LED bulbs there is a “but”, a very big “but”: they are simply not approved according the international maritime regulations (Marine Equipment Directiver). This LED-alternative causes that your navigation lights are not compliant and the corresponding certificate’s are no longer valid. Imagine what would happen in a case of collision and the use of inappropriate LED bulbs...
But why doesn’t DHR get an approval for LED bulbs? The answer is simple, it’s not possible to have replacement LED bulb that is suitable for navigational light purposes. The explanation is somewhat technical:
1. An approved incandescent bulb has a wide visible spectrum that can be detected by the human eye. LED bulbs, on the other hand, have more narrow spectrum.
So when a led bulb is used in combination with a coloured lens almost no visible light passes through the coloured lens, especially with red lenses. That’s the main reason why LED replacement bulbs are not approved.
2. Another reason is that the conventional navigation lights are designed and approved to be used in combination with special incandescent bulbs. In case of a sector lantern, the light output won’t be cut-off at precisely the right angle if a LED bulb is used. This can cause a decrease in visibility and thus decrease in safety.
3. Conventional lanterns work with a Fresnel lens. The lamp is designed in such a way, that the filament of the incandescent bulb is exactly positioned in the centre. If you use a LED bulb, (which has several LEDs) the light isn’t distributed correctly by the lens creating an unwanted light output. This makes the navigation light not visible in all desired vertical angles and therefore not safe.
This is why LED bulbs cannot be used in conventional lanterns.
The following diagram shows the difference:
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psneeld
Guru
Kinda funny the vast majority of vessels on the sea don't have to meet USCG standards or certification, just COLREGS.
USCG certification is about new builds and manufacturers or homebuilts, not retrofitting.
Anyway, the DR. LEDs somehow were certified by the USCG so there is at least one option if worried.
My run of the mill white anchor LED in a Fresnel lens blew away incandescent bulbs by a mile and had zero dead spots. Given a video of it and a video of a standard bulb, no jury or court would say it didn't meet COLREGS. It was always the brightest light in the average anchorage.
My running lights too blew away the original bulbs, they were DRLED lights certified by the USCG....
The bulbs used in some Fresnel lenses are tall, either standard bulb or Festoon and they are emmiting light for as long a distance as my LED lights.
I call BS on some of the stuff written by "manufacturers and boating experts" as I was early on discussing the gross errors on many production boats and nav lights when I was active duty long before the USCG issues many of these safety bulletins.
Oh..... and if someone thinks a degree or two of sector error in a nav light on a small boat at sea is a big safety issue, I suggest they spend more time at sea and not in a lab.
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Comodave
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One point, the CG doesn’t certify any lights. Independent labs, like UL, certify that a particular light meets the CG standards. Just because DrLED says an LED bulb met CG certification doesn’t mean that the bulb will meet certification in any fixture, just the one that it was tested in. But do whatever you want to do with your lights.
BILL GOOD1
Member
The reason I chimed in with ref. to fitting a 12V regulator is the blown bulb had vaporized metal on the glass. Alternator is OK just don"t think a 12V 5W & odd 38mm size bulb is good long term @ 14V. The cost of the bulbs less than $2. Getting to the bulb & changing takes me away from other repairs. Regulator $25. looking forward to NOT changing these bulbs in the future.
Bill
Bill
I dont understand the heed or desire to retrofit Nav lightscw LED. Power consumed is when running. Anchor lights are a whole different thing but real easy and not all that expensive to just replace the anchor light fixture.
psneeld
Guru
Hella, Perko, Forespar and Aqua signal fixtures are mentioned for certified replacement bulbs...covers a lot of fixtures.
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Comodave
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I guess that I would ask if the bulb has been certified on which specific light fixture? It is easy to say that it is certified but show me the proof. It isn’t their responsibility to make sure the replacement bulb is correct or not it is the boat operators responsibility.
psneeld
Guru
From Workboat magazine.
https://www.workboat.com/people-pro...9-and-aqua-signal-series-70-navigation-lights
Developed by Dr. LED at the request of the USCG to improve the reliability of their navigation lights that use P28S bulbs, and to decrease the often hazardous task of having to replace incandescent P28S bulbs while underway, this bulb has also been chosen by the Navy for use in their P28S bulb navigation lights.
I can't find a good picture of the package the bulbs come in and I no longer have my boat...but I saved it because I believe it had the certification on the packaging.
Plus..... just looking at the replacement bulbs from a distance and proper sectors compared to other lights and again, no contest.So yeah I am sure it meets COLREGs.
I believe most of the arguments against them are cerebral...not realistic. Manufacturers that produce bulbs that aren't certified write warnings (likely repeated by drone marine writers) saying that using their bulbs "could" or "might" not conform to standards. The only worry I had was the white LED in a colored lens so for those I used the Dr LEDs.
https://www.workboat.com/people-pro...9-and-aqua-signal-series-70-navigation-lights
Developed by Dr. LED at the request of the USCG to improve the reliability of their navigation lights that use P28S bulbs, and to decrease the often hazardous task of having to replace incandescent P28S bulbs while underway, this bulb has also been chosen by the Navy for use in their P28S bulb navigation lights.
I can't find a good picture of the package the bulbs come in and I no longer have my boat...but I saved it because I believe it had the certification on the packaging.
Plus..... just looking at the replacement bulbs from a distance and proper sectors compared to other lights and again, no contest.So yeah I am sure it meets COLREGs.
I believe most of the arguments against them are cerebral...not realistic. Manufacturers that produce bulbs that aren't certified write warnings (likely repeated by drone marine writers) saying that using their bulbs "could" or "might" not conform to standards. The only worry I had was the white LED in a colored lens so for those I used the Dr LEDs.
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