S.S. Minnow

[S.S. Minnow]

O.K. now that I am dated, here is where we are at.
We have just retired and have been looking at sailing off into the sunset for a couple of years now with a sailing cat as the expenses of doing so seem within our reach. But circumstances have recently changed and that has enabled us to look at a powered boat and all the expenses they entail. And after being chartering on both the Wolf likes the yachts roominess over the cat and that it requires somewhat less participation on her part to get from here to there.

Been shopping for a Horizon Elegance and had a thread going on the cruisers powered boat forum about a 70' rig and this experience so far. Although that deal did not get past first base, they referred me here as they felt the experience here may be of more help for this type of boat.

Next we will be looking at a 64' Horizon Elegance in FL.
16'3" beam
4'6" draft
60,000lbs
Twin Cat 3196 660 hp, 1320 hp total
My initial concern is:
When I look at other Elegance's of this size or other manufacturers of this length and weight these are the smallest engines I have run across. Most will run 1,600hp, some 2,100hp and a few although heavier 2,800hp.

1) I'm not running a race would rather sip diesel than gulp it but I need enough hp in the Mississippi current if one engine would go down at an importune moment and is 660hp enough for a 60,000lb boat in strong current?

2) Is 1,320 enough for a boat of this size in Mississippi flood waters heading upstream?

They are ripping right now and this is the time of the year we would be returning from the Caribbean as we live in WI and plan on spending summers home. So mooring will be Hudson WI/Stillwater MN and at one of the marinas on the Mississippi river. Your impute is welcomed
Thank you in advance for your time.
Corey

 

[Comodave]

Welcome aboard. Most people don’t run up the Mississippi due to the currents and lack of facilities. Going up the east coast and then the Hudson and the canals is a lot more fun. One of the concerns is air draft in some places.

 

[mvweebles]

A good friend has a 2014 Horizon PowerCat 52. Build quality is pretty good - joinerwork is above average, stainless appears to be high quality, perhaps 316. These are both small boats in the Horizon lineup.

If THIS is the Elegance you're looking at with a pair of 660 hp Cats, I would think she'd cruise just fine at the stated 24-kt cruise. When I was delivering out of San Francisco, I didn't move many fast boats, but I did move a Sunseeker Manhatten of around 60-feet, probably similar vintage. It was a surprisingly good sea boat. I think Horizon is a step-up in quality, but don't take that to the bank. The Sunseeker burned around 65g/hr at cruise which was close to 25kts if I recall. For comparison, my friends PC52 has twin Cummins 435hp engines and burns around 38g/hr at 20-kts. I'd guess a 52-foot Catamaran has similar accomodations to a 65ft mono.

Welcome to TF. Look forward to riding your virtual coat tails as you make your journey.

Peter

 

[MYTraveler]

Next we will be looking at a 64' Horizon Elegance in FL.
16'3" beam
4'6" draft
60,000lbs
Twin Cat 3196 660 hp, 1320 hp total
My initial concern is:
When I look at other Elegance's of this size or other manufacturers of this length and weight these are the smallest engines I have run across. Most will run 1,600hp, some 2,100hp and a few although heavier 2,800hp.

1) I'm not running a race would rather sip diesel than gulp it but I need enough hp in the Mississippi current if one engine would go down at an importune moment and is 660hp enough for a 60,000lb boat in strong current?

2) Is 1,320 enough for a boat of this size in Mississippi flood waters heading upstream?

I don't know anything about the Mississippi, but had the same horse power concerns buying my boat. I was used to a high horsepower sportfisher, and usually traveled from point A to point B at about 25 knots. But those points were never more than 100 miles apart, and the plan with this point was to do much longer distance voyaging. (I don't remember exactly, but the shakedown cruise was about 1200 nm, while burning less than half of the boat's 2,300 gallon fuel capacity.) Anyway, this boat displaces about 100,000 points and is powered by twin 660hp Cummins QSM 11's. I generally cruise at 8.5 - 8.7 knots, but can go 14 when I need to. The worst current I ever faced was in the PNW, where it was flowing at about 8 knots. It was a tidal current, so I had the option of waiting, which I suspect is not an option on the old Mississippi. Bottom line though, for me, 660 hp turns out to be more than adequate and I wish I had selected the 450 hp version of the same engines (wet turbo, rated for near max rpm 24/7). If my experience is any guide, you will be fine with those engines.

And by the way, I notice you are from E. C. Wisconsin (Eau Claire?). We have a place in E. R. Wisconsin - I suspect you can readily guess E.R.

Good luck, Rick

 

[PM]

660 hp is more than plenty to maintain headway and steerage against a 3 or 4 mph current. You will even make a little progress.

pete

 

[twistedtree]

That's a fast moving planing boat. For comparison and contrast, my 68' boat weighs 200,000 lbs (over 2x more), and has a single 400hp engine (1/3 the HP). But it cruises in the 8kt range, and will only do 10kts flat out.

 

[mvweebles]

That's a fast moving planing boat. For comparison and contrast, my 68' boat weighs 200,000 lbs (over 2x more), and has a single 400hp engine (1/3 the HP). But it cruises in the 8kt range, and will only do 10kts flat out.

I'm reminded of a delivery I did of a Nordhavn 57 from Dana Point to Ft Lauderdale, about 4500nms in three roughly equal legs. The first leg - Dana Point to AcaIulco - we picked-up a buddy boat out of San Diego. Was around 70-feet, a go-fast Italian design, apparently also on a delivery. He'd stop somewhere for fuel and sometime during the following day, he'd pass us at 25 kts. We each arrived in Acapulco within 6-hours of one another. A true tortoise and hare story. We burned 1000g diesel over the 1500nms. I can only guess, but he likely burned 4000g, perhaps more.

TT, I think it was you who described the N57s speed as a "freak of nature." We averaged around 200nm/day - close to 9kts at 6gph. That type of sustained "tortoise" speed really opens a lot of possibilities.

I wish BandB was still active on TF. They were a fan of large, faster yachts. They likely knew the Horizon line well. Like Nordhavn, Horizon appears to have a devoted customer base who frequently move-up within the Horizon lineup. They are popular Florida boats and get moved into the Bahamas and Caribbean often.

Peter

 

[Shrew]

...... Is 1,320 enough for a boat of this size in Mississippi flood waters heading upstream?

They are ripping right now and this is the time of the year we would be returning from the Caribbean as we live in WI and plan on spending summers home. So mooring will be Hudson WI/Stillwater MN and at one of the marinas on the Mississippi river.

The lowest unavoidable fixed bridge on the Great Loop is currently charted at 19.6' and is located at mile 300.6 on the Illinois River.

What is the air draft on the vessel you're looking at?

 

[S.S. Minnow]

Welcome aboard. Most people don’t run up the Mississippi due to the currents and lack of facilities. Going up the east coast and then the Hudson and the canals is a lot more fun. One of the concerns is air draft in some places.

I suspect it is not common travel up the Mississippi as where to go? For me it's home, Central Wisconsin 60 miles from the river. Mooring will be Lacrosse Wi, Hudson WI, Stillwater MN, or somewhere inbetween. TBD. We will be navigatigating the river to and from the gulf.

 

[S.S. Minnow]

The lowest unavoidable fixed bridge on the Great Loop is currently charted at 19.6' and is located at mile 300.6 on the Illinois River.

What is the air draft on the vessel you're looking at?

I am not sure I will find out.

 

[S.S. Minnow]

Thank you Shrew, mvwebbles, twistedtree, Pete Meisinger, MYTraveler and Comodave for all for your impute it is very, very appreciated as we are new to this size of vessel. I will have allot of questions and appreciate everyone taking the time to help us not stumble on this type of purchase.
I will start a new thread in a more appropriate location.
Hello to all, glad to be part of the community.
Corey, Cindy, Buddy, Spike.

 

[OldDan1943]

My N46 never saw more than 9 knots and that was going with the current and the back side of the wave. It had 120HP Deere engine. At about 8 knots it was supposed to burn about 1gph.

Just because your boat has 1000HP doesn’t mean you have to go WOT.
Personally, I would not want to own a boat that burns more than 5gph.

 

[S.S. Minnow]

My N46 never saw more than 9 knots and that was going with the current and the back side of the wave. It had 120HP Deere engine. At about 8 knots it was supposed to burn about 1gph.

Just because your boat has 1000HP doesn’t mean you have to go WOT.
Personally, I would not want to own a boat that burns more than 5gph.

Speed of boat or the hp of the boat does not interest me what so ever. My priority is how much hp is needed with one engine down in a 7 knot head current for the weight of the boat in question. I have always prepared for the worst. The expense to accomplish this is of no interest to me whatsoever. My wife is aboard. And the dogs. I need control with one engine down in current based on the weight of the boat.
It was stated that maybe it's not so much the horsepower but the size of the rudder in a short situation.

 

[Comodave]

Does the boat in question have thrusters? If so they can be used intermittently to hel turn the boat.

 

[mvweebles]

Again, issue is headed down current, not up-current. Gets very interesting very quickly.

I rarely suggest folks consider a charter, but feels right in this instance for OP. PNW has many charter companies and I'm guessing several have a good teaching captain who will spend a couple/few days with you and your mate (wolf??). Would start your boating resume and be an excellent way to get a feel of what works. Plus there are some bodacious currents in parts of the PNW. Finally, it's a gorgeous location, one of the world's top boating locations.

Peter

 

[OldDan1943]

Does the boat in question have thrusters? If so they can be used intermittently to hel turn the boat.

Thrusters and inverters are useless if you dont have the healthy batteries to provide power.

 

[Comodave]

Thrusters and inverters are useless if you dont have the healthy batteries to provide power.

I would assume that he would be running the engines and maybe the genset since he was talking about motoring down the river so powering the thrusters shouldn’t be an issue.