Safe offshore?

[masonturner]

Hey all. I am still new to the Trawler life (coming from SV to MV). I am on the Texas Gulf Coast. I have a Californian 34 LRC. Should I be concerned about rolling the boat or anything like this in rough weather? Please share your experiences. I think I am ok, just haven't had the experience yet and looking for feedback.

 

[rslifkin]

There are definitely conditions that boat won't survive. But for coastal cruising, those conditions should be easily avoidable. And for the most part, you'll be miserable and hating the ride before the boat is in real danger.

I'm sure others with personal experience with the 34 LRC will come along and give some of their experiences.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Welcome aboard. As Mr. r says "... those conditions should be easily avoidable." I can't comment on either the differences in handling weather or the "ride" of your new vessel as compared to any sail boat but MY rule is "If in doubt-don't go out".


BIG difference IF you get caught out either through poor judgment or inaccurate forecast in which case, it's often been said that a boat can take a lot more than the humans aboard can. Be safe.

 

[mvweebles]

"Rough weather" is a relative term. For ease of discsussion, the Beaufort Scale helps even though it is a bit misleading as it assumes unlimited fetch and wind has enough duration to affect seas to the extent shown in the on-water sea state. In other words, Beaufort Scale targets wind-waves, not swells generated from far away.

https://www.spc.noaa.gov/faq/tornado/beaufort.html

I would not knowlingly go out in more than Force 4 conditions, mostly due to comfort. Assuming stuff has been properly secured, boat should hold together through Force 6 but it will be a miserable ride with bruises to show for it. It just isn't fun and your guests will hate you for it.

I'll add one more item: the most annoying part of traditional "Taiwan" trawlers is leaking windows. Heavy wind-generated spray can do some interior damage if not preppped.

Enjoy your boat. You have many sail-to-steam brethren here.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Huge difference between marketing statements and reality. There’s multiple systems which certify boats for different level of use. These define use such as coastal, inland protected waters, open ocean, high latitude and such. It’s further divided into specifics such as having paid passengers and such.
Generally speaking for recreational boats the EU system is used by many even non European people and boats.
The EU system didn’t exist for many of the boats people on this site own. They were built before the system was developed.
In that case people usually resort to stability information. For ocean going sailboats most people want an AVS of 130 degrees or at least 110. For power many consider 90 degrees a good number. One also wants to look at the Gz curve which is a graphic representation of the righting arm at various degree of heel or inversion so you get an understanding of whether the boat will upright and how quickly. Also how much force is required to knock down or invert.
End of day you ask if your boat is safe to take in ocean. Real question is in the ocean in what weather conditions. Usually it’s ability to safely tolerate weather that determines classification of a boat.
Most current recreational trawlers built after the EU system was developed meet requirements to be designed “B” coastal. Not “A” ocean. Some FD trawlers like nordhavn, Kady krogan, diesel duck, Seaton etc. are “A” ocean. I believe some of the larger LRCs would have met “A” if classed. I’m not sure your boat would even though called a LRC.
My current boat is a “B”. Safe in force 8. The manufacturer promo stuff makes a big deal about how well it does in the ocean. However if you can get a Gz curve and a AVS it would clearly be a “B”. It also has sliding door to the pilot house which I doubt would pass for “A”. It was extremely hard to get any of the usual stability numbers from the manufacturer so had to estimate. However it was irrelevant in my judgement as the downflooding risk when heeled would be the limiting factor. I have two large vents to the engine room which would allow water ingress at 45-50 degrees of heel. Therefore I will not expose my boat to conditions above force 7 Beaufort. But as usual Peter is right at force 5 I’m either not going out or heading for a safe harbor. However for recreational trawlers NTs have a great reputation as excellent seaworthy coastal boats. Among the very best.
Suspect but don’t know your boat is also a “B” if classed now. Don’t know the details maybe a “C” as the EU system includes stuff beyond stability. Still a good manufacturer and has good bones. Would think but don’t know you’d be fine in conditions up to force 6 or so. Again Peter is right due to size personally wouldn’t want to be in anything at force 4 to 5 in something that small.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_Craft_Directive

 

[rslifkin]

One big difference between sail and power is the difference in wind impact. While wind may be a problem in close quarters, wind isn't directly a huge concern beyond that. It's mostly the sea state that becomes limiting, so wind direction and fetch are big factors.

We've run in 30 kt winds a mile off a windward shore (so we had some chop, but nothing big) and thought it no big deal. We've done that in a river as well, running straight into the wind. A good gust on the beam will produce a slight heel, but nothing much. You won't get a wind-induced knockdown like with sail, which is part of why a lower AVS is acceptable on a powerboat.


Hippocampus has a good assessment of some of the design concerns. Downflooding would be limiting on my boat as well. Personally, we've never gotten the engine vents anywhere near the water from a roll, the worst we've done is stuff some spray down them. My vents are also not massive, so even if I took a slug of water down them it wouldn't be catastrophic. Only if they were taking gulps on every wave or staying submerged for more than a second or 2 would I start to get really concerned. And honestly, by the time we get rolled that far, I'd probably need to be strapped down to avoid getting thrown across the boat on every roll (as the rolls would be getting rather violent).

 

[mvweebles]

It takes some extreme weather to generate down flooding conditions. I don't think one roll is the problem - it's successive rolls where the boat cannot shed the water fast enough and becomes more vulnerable. AVS (angle of vanishing stability, or the angle past which the boat wants to turn turtle) reduces making the boat much more tender. It's a doom cycle less an 'event' and more of a scenario. But it's incredibly rare for recreational boaters.

To the OP - these boats were born out of the 1973 oil crisis. There have been tens of thousands built and operated over millions of hours of safe and enjoyable operation. Your biggest vulnerability is the engine failing at a bad time in rolling seas which will rock the boat mercilessly. As long as she's on decent shape and use some common sense about weather, you'll be fine.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

Safe is always up to captain and preparations.

So yes, be concerned about rolling a trawler versus a battened down sailboat.

Be concerned enough to rake precautions for expected and a little worse. As posted before, getting caught in severe weather during typical coastal USA cruising is usually done by the inexperienced.

Moatly dangerous in coastal cruising is getting ill or injured and having limiter ability to get to help or it to get to you. Next is your own boat failing in such a way the onboard fire or flooding puts you in jeapordy. Preparations in both maintenance and good safety gear can make those low risks.

So switching from sail to power is mostly about not exceeding limits and that comes from taking things slow enough to get the experience before encountering limits beyond your control. Which also was posted before in the sense is that many days might be miserable long before being unsafe. Learn from those days to guide your future cruises.

 

[boatnbump]

For any off shore crossing I have a sea anchor. Your chances for survival dead in the water is very slim in a big sea. As I get older the less i think i can take. I want to be as safe as i can.

https://seaanchor.com/

 

[masonturner]

Thanks for all the feedback. I agree with all of these and appreciate the support. I have always used Anchor Drogues when sailing and will use it on my Trawler as needed.

 

[Delfin]

The most uncomfortable conditions I've ever experienced are always close to land. In the open ocean, you always have the option of turning downwind so that the waves are moving with you faster than you are moving through the water. Quite pleasant, actually. When the swell gets so big you start to surf, a drogue like a Seabrake, helps keep you in control. Stabilization is critical for crew comfort, as Robert Beebee noted, and therein is one of the big differences between power trawlers crossing oceans vs sailboats that have sails to reduce roll in many conditions, if not heel. A lack of stabilization, whether active or passive would be a disqualifier for me for long offshore passages, although some trawlers with deep keels and roll chocks have certainly made long passages in blue water. Just not for me.

 

[Hippocampus]

Amen

OP said he’s going from sail to power. Didn’t say what sail. One of the big transitions for me was to think about weather differently. On sail had no reluctance in taking a 28’ Bristol Channel Cutter with expectations of seeing severe weather on passage . Can’t think of a powerboat I’d say the same about at that size range. So if he has the mind set about whether after living with small Bluewater sail the transition to thinking differently about living with small powerboats is very important. Think he’s wise to ask.

 

[masonturner]

Amen

OP said he’s going from sail to power. Didn’t say what sail. One of the big transitions for me was to think about weather differently. On sail had no reluctance in taking a 28’ Bristol Channel Cutter with expectations of seeing severe weather on passage . Can’t think of a powerboat I’d say the same about at that size range. So if he has the mind set about whether after living with small Bluewater sail the transition to thinking differently about living with small powerboats is very important. Think he’s wise to ask.

Thanks and great questions. I am coming from a Morgan 33 Sloop

 

[Portage_Bay]

You don't say what year your Californian is. I have an '83. 42 LRC. One thing that keeps me from heavy weather is the windows. Large, stopped in with teak trim. A good slap from a boarding sea could blow out a window.

But I won't likely experience that because I've had my fill of heavy weather and in my retirement prefer to stay in port when things get sporty. Worst I've seen is some spray on the front windows.

 

[Benthic2]

I think this is where a ship's log can be really helpful. By recording forecasts and conditions for each trip you may find that you are comfortable up to 25 knots from the east, but only 15 knots from the west, that weather source A is better than weather source B for approaching storms, or that all the forecasts get it wrong when the wind is from the north and the barometer is rising. Listen to the chatter on the radio (figure out what channels the charter fishermen and tour boats use. Cultivate a relationship with the commercial captains who go out every day, and pay attention to who goes out when. If you wake up and all the commercial boats are still at the dock, go back to bed.
The good thing about boating is you can do it almost every day. The bad thing is that some of those days are spent organizing your spare parts, checking hose clamps, labeling your fuse box, splicing dock lines, or practicing your docking method.

 

[Rsysol]

Hey all. I am still new to the Trawler life (coming from SV to MV). I am on the Texas Gulf Coast. I have a Californian 34 LRC. Should I be concerned about rolling the boat or anything like this in rough weather? Please share your experiences. I think I am ok, just haven't had the experience yet and looking for feedback.

I owned a 34 LRC for several years, still my favorite boat. We did numerous offshore trips, many 50+ out for tuna fishing in the San Diego area. Never did we feel at any risk in that boat regardless of the conditions. And we experienced some conditions!

It’s a well built boat and handles the seas well. That said, based on your admission of lack of experience, choose your weather windows carefully.

 

[JohnWelch]

I am looking at a move to power from sail and have many similar questions and this thread has a hint of some answers to one particular question and that is hull stability. There was mention of 'AVS of 130 degrees..many consider 90 degrees a good number' and also looking at the 'Gz curve.'

If I may, I would like to request a primer for these numbers and recommendation for where to find them or how to calculate.

If someone asks me about sailboats in an offshore context I first mention capsize ratio and the '79 Fastnet disaster. The enquiry from that event determined that capsize ratio of 2.00 or less was much likely to be involved in a fatality.

Next, I would mention roll motion index (also known as comfort ratio) and how a J105 with an 18 is fun but never comfortable, a Cal33 with a 23 is lively, while crossing to Bimini in 3-5 ft seas a GibSea 51 with a RMI of 25 pitched me into a table and broke ribs, and a Valiant 42 with a 34 is a nice ride. Our Catalina 380 is 31 on RMI and 1.85 capsize ratio. She has been in some 40+ knots racing offshore and we know what to expect.

Then I would refer the person to sailboatdata.com where you can enter the boat and find the dimensions and calculations. I have looked for years for 'powerboatdata.com' and find nothing. If there is such a reference, I would be good for a glass of rum the next time we meet at a boat show.

 

[Hippocampus]

Totally agree with you. Whereas sailboat manufacturers will provide a Gz curve or other commonly used construct to report stability powerboat manufacturer don’t. Sailboats manufacturers will often include such information in their promo literature.

I think one possible reason for the dearth of easily available powerboat stability info and the ease for sailboats is due to use patterns.
Recreational sailboats race. Recreational trawlers don’t usually race. Even series production sailboats race. Many of the blue water races require submitting data to be included in the race. Beyond performance data also safety outfitting and stability. Some go as far as to require safety at sea within2 years and inspection of the vessel.
Blue water rallies are popular with sailors such as Salty Dawg and the various ARC events. Once again requirements must be met to be included.

Although there’s an ongoing active discussion among sailors as to which metrics are best to the degree that the comfort quotient you referred to is discounted by many there remains a short and generally accepted list of metrics for stability and survivability for recreational sail.

I had interest in either building a Diesel Duck 46 or buying a used Nordhavn 43 before switching gears and going SD with a NT42. After some back to forth DD sent me information generated to meet the mainland China requirements. It was stuff that was unintelligible to me using metics I was unfamiliar with and in Chinese. I reached out to N asking for a simple AVS, Gz curve and downflooding angle. The dreamers group was more helpful to get a sense of how things stood.

For the NT even less information was available. However it was obvious that unlike Nordhavn where major effort was spent in a design that could heel to just about a knock down and not down flood the NT was much more limited. Same with doors, glass and other survival features. Comparing the NT to other SD boats however leads me to believe the NT is a much safer and survivable boat than many SD designs.

Sad truth is all our common SD designs are not meant to cross oceans nor standup to the typical 3 day northeaster let along travel through a named storm. You might survive or might not. We are “B” boats. For some that “B” is optimistic as the ride would be so unpleasant and crew fatigue not hull strength would be the determinant of survival. I know my “B” can put up with a Tstorm or brief squall but still do my utmost to avoid them.

So for me it was hard to change my thinking. I’m no longer in a situation where I’m out for longer than 5 days. I still think that’s the key issue as you’re good with predictions out to 3 days. Have a reasonable sense out to 3-5d. But more than 5d it’s a crapshoot to a major degree. Now the longest we go without a berth or anchor is one to two overnights (48h) so I think you need to temper your thinking with the reality of how recreational trawlers are used.

Sure you might see a microburst or a rogue. But you’re coastal, hopefully have a epirb and raft. If you’re at all cognizant about whether the likelihood of seeing force 7 or above is nill.

 

[Hippocampus]

https://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/sailboat-stability-uncensored


A bit more detailed

http://www.marine.marsh-design.com/content/understanding-monohull-sailboat-stability-curves

Good and still in English

https://wavetrain.net/2013/05/16/modern-sailboat-design-quantifying-stability/

 

[rslifkin]

To add to what Hippocampus said about different use patterns, I think the nature of motoring vs sailing also means it's a bit harder to have a simple "oops" that tests the boat's stability limits. If you're pushing a sailboat a bit, even without much sea state, it's not too hard to mess up and put a rail in the water. Not so easy on most powerboats without actual really bad weather or breaking waves in an inlet.

Plus, as long as you remain under power, you have more control over the boat's direction and movement through the waves (provided the crew isn't too worn out to manage the boat effectively or you're on a course autopilot can steer adequately without needing constant throttle changes). So you have a better chance of being able to avoid running broadside to large waves and getting the rolled to a dangerous degree.

As mentioned, crew endurance and comfort is often limiting before the boat is. It's certainly the case on my boat, even with a total lack of stability information available to me.

The worst we've been out in was a rather nasty surprise thunderstorm in weather conditions (and forecast) where we had no reason to expect any. We had light wind and 2 footers just forward of the port beam when we started. Storm popped up and those became 3 footers, then the wind shifted and picked up further. That quickly turned into 3 footers from the original direction and 3 to maybe 4 footers quartering off the port bow. We were already on plane for the sake of roll comfort when it hit. Nudged the throttles back just a hair and kept going at about 15 kts. The ride sucked, but the boat was doing just fine. At low speed it would have been very rolly and the pitching would have been significant on our course, but at 15 kts roll wasn't much of an issue, more just some gentle, well damped tilting motions. We were still pitching a bit, but not pounding or slamming. Lots of spray plus rain, so it wasn't exactly a fun day.

But the boat wasn't a handful at the helm in those conditions or anything. Just a bit of steering to keep us on course and the boat moving reasonably through the wave sets. Once we got to somewhere we could head in (which happened to be our destination anyway), we were able to turn downwind and adjust speed a bit, at which point the ride was fine (save for a disconcerting moment when a nice haystack formed under us and ventilated the port prop for a split second). Didn't rearrange the cabin and didn't splash a drop of water down the engine room vents, which means it all felt worse to us than it really was.

 

[Hippocampus]

To add to what Hippocampus said about different use patterns, I think the nature of motoring vs sailing also means it's a bit harder to have a simple "oops" that tests the boat's stability limits. If you're pushing a sailboat a bit, even without much sea state, it's not too hard to mess up and put a rail in the water. Not so easy on most powerboats without actual really bad weather or breaking waves in an inlet.

Plus, as long as you remain under power, you have more control over the boat's direction and movement through the waves (provided the crew isn't too worn out to manage the boat effectively or you're on a course autopilot can steer adequately without needing constant throttle changes). So you have a better chance of being able to avoid running broadside to large waves and getting the rolled to a dangerous degree.

As mentioned, crew endurance and comfort is often limiting before the boat is. It's certainly the case on my boat, even with a total lack of stability information available to me.

The worst we've been out in was a rather nasty surprise thunderstorm in weather conditions (and forecast) where we had no reason to expect any. We had light wind and 2 footers just forward of the port beam when we started. Storm popped up and those became 3 footers, then the wind shifted and picked up further. That quickly turned into 3 footers from the original direction and 3 to maybe 4 footers quartering off the port bow. We were already on plane for the sake of roll comfort when it hit. Nudged the throttles back just a hair and kept going at about 15 kts. The ride sucked, but the boat was doing just fine. At low speed it would have been very rolly and the pitching would have been significant on our course, but at 15 kts roll wasn't much of an issue, more just some gentle, well damped tilting motions. We were still pitching a bit, but not pounding or slamming. Lots of spray plus rain, so it wasn't exactly a fun day.

But the boat wasn't a handful at the helm in those conditions or anything. Just a bit of steering to keep us on course and the boat moving reasonably through the wave sets. Once we got to somewhere we could head in (which happened to be our destination anyway), we were able to turn downwind and adjust speed a bit, at which point the ride was fine (save for a disconcerting moment when a nice haystack formed under us and ventilated the port prop for a split second). Didn't rearrange the cabin and didn't splash a drop of water down the engine room vents, which means it all felt worse to us than it really was.

mmm

That’s the rub. What you described would be Beaufort 3 -gentle breeze. It at most Beaufort 4-moderate breeze. “B” is up to 8. OP is on decent series production “A” rated boat. Suspect he (like me) would have no reluctance in going for a pleasant daysail in those conditions. We’ve been quite happy to have the SeaKeeper on in similar conditions and be able to not need to go on fast plane nor change our course. We still had heave and it wasn’t fun. Put the table on its side and no work in the galley. Have no machismo on boats and think it has no place. You need to accept it’s not a “A” rated sailboat and not brick out house FD powerboat.
At 15.5 kts I’m burning 27gph. On the Outbound a full solent and maybe a Cunningham or if on a hard beat single reefed main. Heeled to 15-20 degrees max in the gusts. AP or wind vane. On the NT 8-10kts with SeaKeeper on so the genset as well. Burning 9-10gph. Hand steering.

 

[rslifkin]

mmm

That’s the rub. What you described would be Beaufort 3 -gentle breeze. It at most Beaufort 4-moderate breeze. “B” is up to 8. OP is on decent series production “A” rated boat. Suspect he (like me) would have no reluctance in going for a pleasant daysail in those conditions. We’ve been quite happy to have the SeaKeeper on in similar conditions and be able to not need to go on fast plane nor change our course. We still had heave and it wasn’t fun. Put the table on its side and no work in the galley. Have no machismo on boats and think it has no place. You need to accept it’s not a “A” rated sailboat and not brick out house FD powerboat.
At 15.5 kts I’m burning 27gph. On the Outbound a full solent and maybe a Cunningham or if on a hard beat single reefed main. Heeled to 15-20 degrees max in the gusts. On the NT 8-10kts with SeaKeeper on so the genset as well. Burning 9-10gph.

I'm not a huge fan of the Beaufort scale for coastal work. There's often shelter, local wind effects, wind shifts, etc. that cause the sea state and the wind to not match up as the scale suggests. Then there's the issue of confused sea states, shorter wave periods than you often see in the open ocean, etc. that can all change the game. And depending on where you are, you may not have the sea room to take a more comfortable course when weather comes up suddenly. In particular our local conditions typically involve very steep, short period waves, so particularly when things get confused they can feel worse than they look. This boat has a rather full bow, so steep seas can lead to a lot of pitching. But running downwind in the same sea state is a magic carpet ride at pretty much any speed.

Sometimes you just find the conditions that are unpleasant for the boat you're on. We've probably all had the days where the ride is fine, but you look over and see another boat getting beat up. And other days where the ride isn't great, but another guy in a no more capable boat looks to be having a perfectly comfortable ride.

In the thunderstorm case, I'm not sure what the wind actually was, but the sea state was still building when we got out of it. So the wind would have driven it to worse conditions. Had the wind not shifted and given us 2 wave trains from different angles, I expect the conditions wouldn't have been nearly as unpleasant even if the seas were bigger. Then we would have just worked our way upwind a little further and accepted some pitching so we'd have room to turn slightly downwind and surf the rest of the ride.

 

[mvweebles]

I'm not a huge fan of the Beaufort scale for coastal work. There's often shelter, local wind effects, wind shifts, etc. that cause the sea state and the wind to not match up as the scale suggests. Then there's the issue of confused sea states, shorter wave periods than you often see in the open ocean, etc. that can all change the game.

I agree with your underlying logic, but for lack of an alternative way to discuss, I like the Beaufort Scale, even though it dates from the early 1800s, long before recreational boating was popular.

Riding on the back of Hippocampus's first post this morning, the choice of a powerboat as a cruising platform comes down to whether you will be sailing within a 3-day weather window or not; how much you want to depend on luck. It's really that simple. Yes, you'll be surprised, sometimes to the good. Sistership to my Willard 36 crossed from California to Hawaii. The reliable weather window for a boat like mine to do this is about a month long. Even then, a surprise will not end well so you're depending on luck.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Totally agree period has a lot more to do with comfort than height. Also agree once you’re on the shelf waves start to break if water depth is less than 8x wave height. Breaking waves are more dangerous and less comfortable. Can be in 3-4 meter-long period swells and be quite comfortable when depths are beyond your ability to read them.
However take a transit through the Gulf Stream to be in a washing machine. Any place it’s wind against water it’s no fun. Even outside the stream it’s vey common to have one predominant swell with a second superimposed from a distant storm and then a third set of wind waves from yet a third different direction. Coastal doesn’t have the only license for confused seas.
Power does have several advantages to give a more comfortable ride. Also to decrease pooping, green water and to diminish roll. Sail is confined to a very limited range of speed. Even the best pointing sail losses around 70 degrees of the compass of where they can go. Sail isn’t set up to carry gyros, fins, fish, rolling chocks etc. sail is more prone to corkscrew.
But for power size matters more than for sail. For cruising boats there’s a clearer divide between coastal and offshore/ocean. SD isn’t FD nor LDL. No way around it to my thinking.