St. Lucie River Railroad Bridge update

[Blissboat]

The USCG has announced proposed changes to the opening schedule for the FEC railroad bridge across the St. Lucie River at Stuart, FL:

https://www.news.uscg.mil/Press-Rel...iation-for-okeechobee-waterway-st-lucie-rive/

Conflicts between rail and waterborne traffic seem likely to grow as shippers and transportation agencies try to make better use of rail.

 

[kthoennes]

Oh boy, don't tell my father. He lives (and boats) in Stuart and he's going ballistic on the huge increase in train traffic and higher allowed speeds, and the side effects of increased traffic -- like bridge openings. We haven't visited him since last year but the way he tells it, the Cannonball Express tears through town at the speed of Japanese bullet trains and they're wrecking the character of the town. I used to think dad was just being cranky but now I see news reports of train testing of speeds to 110 mph (!!) through downtown Stuart. Sounds crazy to me. So if I'm reading that CG post correctly, rather than have it default closed and open it for boaters on request like it is now, they'd do an alternating or regular open/closed arrangement?

 

[psneeld]

Living near the tracks in Ft Pierce, not sure that the loooooong, slower freight trains with their fancy whistle blowing at every crossing isn't worse than a small fast train

 

[O C Diver]

I actually think it's a good idea.
Make the schedule for bridge to be open 30 consecutive minutes of every hour and a $10,000 fine every time it not open on time. Make the car bridge open for 10 minutes at the beginning and 10 minutes at the end of the train bridge opening.

Ted

 

[fryedaze]

Does anyone know how fast Brightline will travel through Stuart? I just can't see 110 mph through downtown. On the north side of the bridge there is almost a 80 degree turn. I am no train engineer but 110 on that turn seems high.

 

[O C Diver]

Does anyone know how fast Brightline will travel through Stuart? I just can't see 110 mph through downtown. On the north side of the bridge there is almost a 80 degree turn. I am no train engineer but 110 on that turn seems high.View attachment 141357

That's going to be only part of the limitation. There are road and pedestrian crossings that will have to be changed over a certain speed limit.

Ted

 

[kthoennes]

Yeah, if you google "stuart florida trains" you'll get a number of news articles and agency postings that reference testing to 110 mph (and various lawsuits against it). Last time dad took us out on the boat he showed us one of the bridges from the water. I'm no railroad engineer either, but it looked like a rusty old thing to me from the era of steam locomotives.

 

[psneeld]

Ft Pierce has already upgraded crossings in downtown, some days it even has guys sitting under umbrellas and cop cars with lights on at the crossings.

All the signs say "trains may exceed 80mph"

 

[healhustler]

Holy crap! That rusty old RR bridge over the St Lucie doesn’t look like something made for such frequent cycles. To think of a train going 110 MPH through Stuart (or anything above 45 MPH for that matter) seems so contrary to the character and pace of the people there. I never knew anything that moved very fast in Stuart.

 

[psneeld]

I am not sure how many times or exactly where it goes that fast, but I have been on AMTRAK between Philadelphia and Washington (pretty suburban area) and saw around 105 on my GPS.

I think the speeds of the South Florida Brightline are only supposed to get up to 125mph and for much of it slower. So I am not sure it meets bullet train definition, but I am sort of looking forward to it and a new station in Ft Pierce. Driving to see friends down in Miami or Lauderdale is dangerous at best.

I will say that at some point last winter it seem like a Brightline train either hit a person or a car almost every day in a short section of track.... hope people learn but for now, even with huge signs posted at these crossings, don't stop on tracks or no advance and no right on red (so they may wind up on the tracks) and every day I am in town I see the majority of people ignoring the signs. It truly amazes me.

Can't wait to see crazy impatient boaters in the future...

 

[PhilPB]

I think there's been around 100 folks killed so far. The trains are only 4-5 cars long so it takes longer for the gates to go down than the train to pass. They put a bunch of new track in our area of Palm Beach county. The cost is about $50-$100 round-trip from Miami to West Palm Beach, not cheap. They will be operating from Miami to Orlando soon and will expand service eventually to Tampa.
The parts that I find interesting and the way I understand:
They will run on and have/will expand the tracks to run from Miami to Tampa.
Owned by FEC (trains and tracks). Who is owned by Grupo Mexico, who is owned by Fortress Investments, who sold to Abu Dhabi Sovereign wealth fund.
FEC is the exclusive provider of rail service to Port of Miami, Port Everglades and Port of Palm Beach.
These ports (and soon Tampa) have been dredged to accept larger ships in very recent years.

In my opinion, making a short story long, I don't think it will be for passengers exclusively for very long and will transition to freight, which I hope will not hold up the boat traffic even longer. This will also mean much more port traffic and much larger vessels off the Florida coast.

 

[High Wire]

Short of car bomb vehicle barriers I can’t see the classic swing arm gates stopping cars and trucks from running the warnings. We’ll see after all of the flagmen are gone and the casualties pile up. The new welded rail will be quieter than the old bolted rail. Personally I can’t believe they didn’t fence the whole thing off for limited access. I used to work for the PATCO Hi Speed Line from NJ to Philly (limited access, 70 mph max) and once a month there was a suicide or someone falling off a platform onto the tracks. These people are going to see weekly fatalities
Btw the old commuter “Shore Line” from the Jersey shore to to PATCO station was nicknamed the “Killer Train “ because like the Brightline it was all grade level unrestricted access rail.

 

[PhilPB]

Short of car bomb vehicle barriers I can’t see the classic swing arm gates stopping cars and trucks from running the warnings. We’ll see after all of the flagmen are gone and the casualties pile up. The new welded rail will be quieter than the old bolted rail. Personally I can’t believe they didn’t fence the whole thing off for limited access. I used to work for the PATCO Hi Speed Line from NJ to Philly (limited access, 70 mph max) and once a month there was a suicide or someone falling off a platform onto the tracks. These people are going to see weekly fatalities

Seems like most mishaps are involving people not in vehicles

 

[High Wire]

Seems like most mishaps are involving people not in vehicles

PATCO had ZERO vehicle crossings because it was elevated and fenced off with 8 ft and barbed wire. The Shore Line had dozens of vehicle crossings.

 

[High Wire]

Anyone know why the road drawbridge remains after they built the new high fixed bridge? Seems redundant and no longer needed.

 

[Dougcole]

I hate brightline and that stupid train bridge. The fact that it exists at all is a testament to the power of the corporate lobby and the sway they hold over politicians. They need to build a high rise bridge in that spot, it is a major hazard to navigation and cuts off the Okeechobee Waterway.


My understanding is that they intended it to primarily carry freight all along, the passenger train is just a smoke screen.

 

[Blissboat]

I hate brightline and that stupid train bridge. The fact that it exists at all is a testament to the power of the corporate lobby and the sway they hold over politicians. They need to build a high rise bridge in that spot, it is a major hazard to navigation and cuts off the Okeechobee Waterway.


My understanding is that they intended it to primarily carry freight all along, the passenger train is just a smoke screen.

Be it passenger or freight trains, elevated railroad bridges are nonexistent in places like Florida, where the terrain is flat. That's because of the weight of a string of cars - the degree of slope must be moderate enough that a locomotive can drag the train up one side and keep it under control on the descending side. That means the grade change must begin a very long distance from the obstacle being overpassed, such as a river or an Interstate Highway. That would consume a massive amount of real estate, and would impede land uses on either side of the tracks for that entire distance, and then are engineering / construction costs.

 

[dannc]

...
My understanding is that they intended it to primarily carry freight all along, the passenger train is just a smoke screen.

That is my understanding as well.

The disruption these trains will cause, passenger or cargo, along the SE Florida coast towns is immense. The traffic back ups from trains were horrible when I lived down there and I can't imagine the impact of more trains.

Stuart is really bad because the hospital will be impacted by these trains and the traffic backups. People in ambulances will be late in getting to the ER and people needing chemo are going to have to some how plan around the train schedules...

Later,
Dan

 

[dannc]

Be it passenger or freight trains, elevated railroad bridges are nonexistent in places like Florida, where the terrain is flat. That's because of the weight of a string of cars - the degree of slope must be moderate enough that a locomotive can drag the train up one side and keep it under control on the descending side. That means the grade change must begin a very long distance from the obstacle being overpassed, such as a river or an Interstate Highway. That would consume a massive amount of real estate, and would impede land uses on either side of the tracks for that entire distance, and then are engineering / construction costs.

It is not just Florida. Durham NC, and other places in the state, have a few very low railroad bridges that destroy numerous vehicles each year. There is a website for at least one of these bridges so you can see the crashes. Drivers ignore the plentiful signage and lights and try to drive under the bridges which ends up destroying trailers, box trucks, and RVs.

The roads going UNDER the railroad bridges are almost holes, and in heavy rains they can flood, which traps cars. The bridges cannot be made higher because the rail road grade can have very little slope, and to increase the height, while maintaining the grade, would require raising the railroad bed for miles and negatively impact road/train crossings. The roads under the bridges can't be made deeper to increase the bridge height due to utilities under the road AND negatively impacting other road intersections.

It is, what it is.

Later,
Dan

 

[High Wire]

I’m sure the Brightline train could climb a hill for a new bridge no problem. It’s the freight trains that cannot. Perhaps the future fix is a swing bridge that allows two way simultaneous boat traffic.

 

[DBG8492]

We went through there for the first time last Friday at about 8 AM on the way to Indiantown. I'd read the previous notice and was prepped to have to call for this one and the Roosevelt Bridge to open simultaneously as it didn't seem to make sense to do them consecutively.

However, the railroad bridge was open. In fact, there was a barge there and three or four guys were welding on it.

Only had to call the Roosevelt and the tender opened it immediately.

And just for the record, I took a good look as we passed it, and I wouldn't ride a train doing 110 MPH across that rusted-out piece of crap if they paid me to.

 

[PhilPB]

There was a new schedule reported but I'm not clear on what it is. We will be passing through it a couple times in the near future for our trip to Stuart and Ft Pierce

 

[hmason]

I liveaboard in Stuart very near the RR bridge. I have watched the construction of the tracks up to the RR bridge with great interest. There are double tracks right up to the bridge and then there is one track across the bridge. I can only conclude that there is a siding to accommodate a northbound train approaching a southbound train and and the reverse. And yes, the bridge is a rusted piece of crap built over 100 years ago.

The hospital is on one side of the tracks and access will be blocked whenever a train blocks the RR crossing which is of major concern to us "golden years" folks.

Another major concern are the vehicular RR crossings. The approaches are very short and both involve roundabouts. One major intersection is so complex that it is known locally as "confusion corners." In fact during the snowbird season it's kind of fun watching the snowbirds try to navigate the confusion. Confusion corner abuts the RR crossing and it is not unusual for traffic to stop and a vehicle gets caught right on the tracks.

As a last comment, boat traffic through the RR bridge is single file for other than very small boats. Let the fun begin.

 

[diver dave]

I commuted on the FL trirail for a few years. Even that thing could giddyup and go to about 80 mph. 110 will push the safety envelope. Was on during a car impact; was reading near a window and barely noticed some glass raining down. Stopped us for enough time for fire rescue to see if WE were ok. We felt zero impact. There will be lots of stories with this new train.

 

[High Wire]

Just a quick observation while swinging on a mooring ball at Stuart. The now manned train bridge is closed for shorter durations than it used to. Automated warnings are broadcast on ch 13 three minutes prior, two, one, as it starts down, and full down. What used to take twenty minutes now takes five. Once the train passes, the bridge opens within a minute. The Old Roosevelt Bridge dropped their schedule and now opens on demand as long as the train bridge is fully open. The bottom line is the small boats <14ft vertical can pass through most of the time when the train bridge is open and eases congestion. Large boats don’t have to wait for scheduled openings. When there are openings of the ORB there are only two or three boats waiting a short time. For now it seems to be working.

 

[O C Diver]

Just a quick observation while swinging on a mooring ball at Stuart. The now manned train bridge is closed for shorter durations than it used to. Automated warnings are broadcast on ch 13 three minutes prior, two, one, as it starts down, and full down. What used to take twenty minutes now takes five. Once the train passes, the bridge opens within a minute. The Old Roosevelt Bridge dropped their schedule and now opens on demand as long as the train bridge is fully open. The bottom line is the small boats <14ft vertical can pass through most of the time when the train bridge is open and eases congestion. Large boats don’t have to wait for scheduled openings. When there are openings of the ORB there are only two or three boats waiting a short time. For now it seems to be working.

Sounds good! Now let's see how long it lasts.

Ted

 

[High Wire]

Sounds good! Now let's see how long it lasts.

Ted

Right! Sooner or later someone will decide to save money and get rid of the railroad bridge tenders again. Bank on that.