Stabilization: Hydraulic Fin vs Gyro vs DMS Magnus vs Gyro-Gale air-driven fins

[proudsailor]

Looking to hear from those who have any of the above systems to learn pros and cons and expense.

Gyro-Gale is pneumatic- no hydraulics, lower pressure, and per the manufacturer more responsive. Maintenance every 2 years based on routine use. Maintenance can be done by an experienced owner.

Hydraulics (ABT, Niad)- are the most common. Been on boats with them. Usually requires yard maintenance.

DMS (https://www.dmsholland.com/en/stabilizers/magnusmaster-2/) is the rotating tube thingy that has lots of physics behind it, not a class I excelled at! No idea what it costs or how effective it is in really rough seas. Those who have- why?

Gyro- everything I read indicates you need the generator running to use it. And that it's not the best in really crappy seas.

Looking for install on a small full displacement trawler.....

 

[sunchaser]

I nixed a nice vessel due to the large continuous running air compressor. I much prefer a PTO driving fins. Once into continuous Gen set running air and gyro become more likely potential avenues.

 

[mvweebles]

Pluses and minuses to all systems. As Sunchaser indicates, if you're running a boat with full time generator, gyro makes sense, especially if new build.

If I were to start from scratch, I'd look at electro-motor fins, though I have a small boat so the hydraulic tank and equipment tales a lot of space. Given how the EV industry has exploded, pretty sure electric motors have gotten very sophisticated.

Biggest decision is to have stabilization. After that, type of stabilization is less important.

Peter

 

[Portage_Bay]

With decades of experience running boats with pneumatic control systems I can tell you they require meticulous maintenance to keep moisture and particulates from fouling ports, valves and other critical components leading to failure. It's not hard to do. But they require frequent inspection. For example daily draining the condensation from the air tank, filter and dryer if fitted At the first hint of performance issues you'll need to shut the system down to drain everything, clean the filter and dryer. Then continue down stream until all is dry and clean again. It isn't technically challenging, usually just replacing O rings and other soft parts, cleaning and lubricating. But it takes time and the system is offline until done. Pneumatic systems are not for those who just want to turn the system on and have it work. Hydraulic systems require little maintenance and are much more tolerant of deferred maintenance.

 

[IRENE]

Additional User Data - ABT Trac

Our ABT 220 system has a 6-year seal replacement interval. This can be accomplished by a handy owner and a couple of heavy lifters to remove/replace the fins. There is some light noise from the hydraulics but not bothersome, the engine is louder. We have had 2 service opportunities; one owner induced and one failed part. Excellent service by the former ABT, which has since changed hands. Parts availability appears to be on and off, seals are 6 weeks out as of last week. Getting ABT on the phone is easy.

No comparisons offered as my experience is all on 20+ year-old Naiad systems and SD boats. Maintenance expense has been limited to oil analysis and one service call, which worked out to a dollar per hour used during our ownership. We will be completing the 6-year maintenance this year, I estimate it will cost about $1000 parts/labor inclusive (while hauled for a bottom job).

 

[magna 6882]

we have Keypower hydraulic stabilizers and they have had zero problems. Simple system and it just works. It looks like you are looking for a boat so it would be cheaper to get a stabilized boat vs retrofitting.

 

[CamoPirate]

Tens of thousands of miles with ABT fins on Nordhavns and a few thousand miles on Sportfishers with Gyros. I like the motion the Seakeeper gyros give but obviously the generator.

 

[Graeme Walker]

I have had minimal experience with stabilizers, helped a friend solve a problem, however I've heard they 'gyros' need a long time to spin-up, i.e. an hour before they are useful, also that retrofitting is an issue if the boat isn't designed to handle the large resistive loads imposed on it by the gyro. FYI.

 

[Greg QS]

I have had both.

Seakeeper. is awesome, works better than fins. Works on the hook, just drifting around , and underway. Genset must run when on. It takes about an hour to start up. No big deal just turn on at the dock 1st thing will your prepping the boat to go. Does have yearly maintenance and must be done by factory tech, Mine was 700 + parts per year.

Fins work well but no stabilization at anchor or while sitting still. Will take fins over nothing . I have not seen much in Maintenance costs .

So it depends what your needs of stabilization are. Do you want to be stabilized drift fishing, on the hook Seakeaper wins.

If your just lookin for on the move fins acceptable.

As far as cost. Fins will be considerablly less. New fins for my boat 61' 110k quoted. Seakeaper 130k for the part Plus factory install 75-130 .

 

[Taras]

I've had great success with 2 different boats with Naiad hydraulic fins. They work great and require very little maintenance. I see there are now "electric" actuated fins that work underway AND at anchor. Not sure if they're "proven" yet but an interesting alternative

 

[proudsailor]

With decades of experience running boats with pneumatic control systems I can tell you they require meticulous maintenance to keep moisture and particulates from fouling ports, valves and other critical components leading to failure. It's not hard to do. But they require frequent inspection. For example daily draining the condensation from the air tank, filter and dryer if fitted At the first hint of performance issues you'll need to shut the system down to drain everything, clean the filter and dryer. Then continue down stream until all is dry and clean again. It isn't technically challenging, usually just replacing O rings and other soft parts, cleaning and lubricating. But it takes time and the system is offline until done. Pneumatic systems are not for those who just want to turn the system on and have it work. Hydraulic systems require little maintenance and are much more tolerant of deferred maintenance.

Thanks- very helpful. Is it clear when these things start to happen (less responsive?) or the system just stops working. Imagine it would be a PITA should it go belly up in a seaway.

 

[proudsailor]

I have had both.

Seakeeper. is awesome, works better than fins. Works on the hook, just drifting around , and underway. Genset must run when on. It takes about an hour to start up. No big deal just turn on at the dock 1st thing will your prepping the boat to go. Does have yearly maintenance and must be done by factory tech, Mine was 700 + parts per year.

Fins work well but no stabilization at anchor or while sitting still. Will take fins over nothing . I have not seen much in Maintenance costs .

So it depends what your needs of stabilization are. Do you want to be stabilized drift fishing, on the hook Seakeaper wins.

If your just lookin for on the move fins acceptable.

As far as cost. Fins will be considerablly less. New fins for my boat 61' 110k quoted. Seakeaper 130k for the part Plus factory install 75-130 .

Looking for underway stabilization (although who would turn it down at anchor). Does the power draw require generator at anchor or are smaller versions (we're looking at FD trawlers in the lower 40 feet range) able to run on battery for some periods?

 

[Portage_Bay]

First let me be clear. My pneumatics experience is engine and winch control. Not stabilizers. But pneumatics are pneumatics. When air is compressed moisture is released. Moisture causes corrosion. When new make up air is brought in by the compressor there is the potential for particulate contamination.

Failure mode will vary from system to system. Some will become less responsive. Some will fail outright.

Perhaps if the system can be sealed, charged with zero percent humidity air and kept sealed the problems can be avoided. But I'm only guessing if they are doing that. The company's website offers no information.

 

[Hippocampus]

To the OP our practice on a NT42 is to spool up the Seakeeper about an hour before leaving It needs the genset underway

 

[proudsailor]

First let me be clear. My pneumatics experience is engine and winch control. Not stabilizers. But pneumatics are pneumatics. When air is compressed moisture is released. Moisture causes corrosion. When new make up air is brought in by the compressor there is the potential for particulate contamination.

Failure mode will vary from system to system. Some will become less responsive. Some will fail outright.

Perhaps if the system can be sealed, charged with zero percent humidity air and kept sealed the problems can be avoided. But I'm only guessing if they are doing that. The company's website offers no information.

Appreciate the clarification. To your point- pneumatics are pneumatics.

 

[Mr. Blu]

I have the DMS Magnus Stabilizers on my Beneteau 52 Swift Trawler. They work great. Hardly no maintenance. No generator needed. I have a 5 kWh inverter. Just push One button and they are immediately active. No zero Speed however. They work great in rough seas. Did not have to sacrifice much space in the engine room.
Very satisfied I choose them over a gyro.

 

[Circumnavigator]

We installed a Quick gyro on Fintry (79' -- 150 tons displacement). On a run back from Cape Sable Nova Scotia to Boston in 6-8 foot seas with wind on the port bow at 25 knots we were very comfortable. For that boat the gyro weights 3200 pounds is a cube a yard+ on a side and takes 7kW.


With that good experience, we installed a smaller Quick gyro on Morning Light. Same result -- excellent seakeeping and good comfort in rolly anchorages. A cube 2 feet on a side and takes 3kW. Morning Light is 42 feet, single screw, and displaces about 38,000 pounds.


I like the gyro because it has nothing outside the hull, can be mounted anywhere, and has very low maintenance -- a grease gun job every 2,000 hours. It works well at sea and at anchor. Installation is just a matter of finding a strong place to bolt it down -- in both of our cases the main longitudinals.


Jim


Sweetwater -- Swan 57 sloop on which we circumnavigated 1995-98
Fintry -- x Royal Navy Fleet Tender -- owned 2003-2022, 20,000 miles including trans-Atlantic - see The Fleet Tender Fintry

Morning Light -- Webbers Cove 42 single screw trawler 2021- ?

 

[proudsailor]

We installed a Quick gyro on Fintry (79' -- 150 tons displacement). On a run back from Cape Sable Nova Scotia to Boston in 6-8 foot seas with wind on the port bow at 25 knots we were very comfortable. For that boat the gyro weights 3200 pounds is a cube a yard+ on a side and takes 7kW.


With that good experience, we installed a smaller Quick gyro on Morning Light. Same result -- excellent seakeeping and good comfort in rolly anchorages. A cube 2 feet on a side and takes 3kW. Morning Light is 42 feet, single screw, and displaces about 38,000 pounds.


I like the gyro because it has nothing outside the hull, can be mounted anywhere, and has very low maintenance -- a grease gun job every 2,000 hours. It works well at sea and at anchor. Installation is just a matter of finding a strong place to bolt it down -- in both of our cases the main longitudinals.


Jim


Thanks Jim. So on a smaller 42 (we're considering similar single screw) at 3KW, do you have to run the generator underway? Or do you have enough battery and alternator power to run gyro from house bank? Not that I want to be in worse than you've experienced Nova Scotia to Boston, I've read that gyro loses efficacy in super rough seas. Any insights?

 

[Circumnavigator]

Thanks Jim. So on a smaller 42 (we're considering similar single screw) at 3KW, do you have to run the generator underway? Or do you have enough battery and alternator power to run gyro from house bank? Not that I want to be in worse than you've experienced Nova Scotia to Boston, I've read that gyro loses efficacy in super rough seas. Any insights?

Yes, we run the genset. We've got enough inverter and house battery to run the unit for an hour or so, but I don't bother. I'd rather have the batteries full so we can turn the genset off when we're anchored.



Any stabilization runs out of steam at some point. In 60,000 miles of cruising (much of it without stabilization) we haven't been out in conditions that the Quick wouldn't handle.


Jim

 

[Rsysol]

I have the DMS Magnus Stabilizers on my Beneteau 52 Swift Trawler. They work great. Hardly no maintenance. No generator needed. I have a 5 kWh inverter. Just push One button and they are immediately active. No zero Speed however. They work great in rough seas. Did not have to sacrifice much space in the engine room.
Very satisfied I choose them over a gyro.

I’ve been looking at a similar product called rotorswing, for me, the install would be easy and being electric only has its advantages. Do you know anything about Rotorswing vs. DMS?

 

[Wruckus]

Stabilization

I’ve been using a thirty-something YO Gyro-Gale pneumatic system on my 38’ MT. The system is simple to maintain for most with a modicum of “shade tree” mechanical sense. Keep the air dryer serviced and the oiler filled. Gyro spins up in less than a minute. Quick response time when surprised by a large wake in freshwater. Four Gulf crossings and choppy waters of Mobile Bay have proven the system to be a real blessing. I’ll add that Zeyad Metwally in Gyro-Gale in Stuart, FL provides the very BEST product support I have ever experienced. Any time, any day and holidays. (I’ve not had failures but rather advice on updating original install from about 1988. I would outfit another vessel again in a heartbeat. BTW I’m certain newer designs are even more effective in greatly reducing roll underway. -Steve. Currently near Knoxville, TN

 

[sunchaser]

Wruckus
How is your air supply system set up? Thanks

 

[Mr. Blu]

I know that DMS also has the Rotorswing in it’s program. You might ask mr. Patrick Noor of DMS for more information (Pro’s and Con’s) info@dmsholland.com

 

[Delfin]

What are the advantages of pneumatic vs hydraulic? If they perform the same, which I would assume since my ABT eliminates 99% of roll, I suppose it comes down to cost, and if so, it would seem having a hydraulic system on a boat to power everything from de-watering pumps to winches and windlesses would give the edge to hydraulics.


Were I to have a dedicated short fishing boat, I can't imagine a sweeter system than gyro. Having a stable platform offshore whether trolling or jigging would be very, very nice.

 

[Wruckus]

Haldex N7206 air compressor Belt driven from Lehman 135 using 2 belts. (Newer installs use 1. Zeyad says Bendix are also used. Haldex support is not so good. They claim no warranty in marine applications. Zeyad has better experience with Haldex. He is the guru (his father designed the systems. He would gladly fill in any blanks you might have. I can't emphasize enough how "over the top" helpful he is.

Water cooled
N7206 (EL16060 is replacement)
1600 cu/ft min (System requires 1300)

 

[rslifkin]

What are the advantages of pneumatic vs hydraulic? If they perform the same, which I would assume since my ABT eliminates 99% of roll, I suppose it comes down to cost, and if so, it would seem having a hydraulic system on a boat to power everything from de-watering pumps to winches and windlesses would give the edge to hydraulics.


Were I to have a dedicated short fishing boat, I can't imagine a sweeter system than gyro. Having a stable platform offshore whether trolling or jigging would be very, very nice.

If you have other equipment where running hydros makes sense, then I agree, hydraulic stabilizers are logical. But there are plenty of boats they only have hydraulics to run stabilizers, so alternate power sources may be more practical.

 

[sunchaser]

RL
Hydraulics are simple and reliable. There are tens of millions of hydraulic pumps in use in North America with some dirt movers having a multitude of them. Our engines are specifically designed for PTOs due to users in agriculture, dirt moving and large forklifts. No rocket science or complexities involved.

 

[Taras]

I have the DMS Magnus Stabilizers on my Beneteau 52 Swift Trawler. They work great. Hardly no maintenance. No generator needed. I have a 5 kWh inverter. Just push One button and they are immediately active. No zero Speed however. They work great in rough seas. Did not have to sacrifice much space in the engine room.
Very satisfied I choose them over a gyro.

May I ask what the Magnus Stabilizer system cost you on you 52'?
These are of interest.
Thank you!!
Taras

 

[dannc]

We installed a Quick gyro on Fintry (79' -- 150 tons displacement). On a run back from Cape Sable Nova Scotia to Boston in 6-8 foot seas with wind on the port bow at 25 knots we were very comfortable. For that boat the gyro weights 3200 pounds is a cube a yard+ on a side and takes 7kW.

With that good experience, we installed a smaller Quick gyro on Morning Light. Same result -- excellent seakeeping and good comfort in rolly anchorages. A cube 2 feet on a side and takes 3kW. Morning Light is 42 feet, single screw, and displaces about 38,000 pounds.

I like the gyro because it has nothing outside the hull, can be mounted anywhere, and has very low maintenance -- a grease gun job every 2,000 hours. It works well at sea and at anchor. Installation is just a matter of finding a strong place to bolt it down -- in both of our cases the main longitudinals.

Jim

Thank you for this information.

We have been looking at the Quick gyros, and while the Italian website has plenty of documentation, I have not been able to get any of the PDF's to download, but the US website did work. What I can't find is a chart saying that a vessel of a given length/displacement needs which model(s) of Quick gyroscope. I was guessing the models you used so I feel better.

I was also interested in the maintenance and I saw the 2,000 hour period which just requires a check for software updates, grease, bolt and wear checks. Seems pretty simple.

Have you had any parts that needed replacement or a visited required by a company mechanic?

Thanks again,
Dan

 

[Southportsailor641]

I am considering a PTO driven hydraulic generator. Typically you cannot put an AC generator on the main engine becuase the varying rpm which cause flucuations in hertz. The constant flow govenors regulate the flow to the hydraulic generator from idol all the way to WOT. With this type of system, everytime the main is running, I have AC power for the air conditioner and eventually the gyro. I have been an engineer on large yachts with gyros and Niads. I mainly boat on the East Coast in shallow waters with LOTS of lobster traps. Personally, I choose Gyro and HVAC however I believe under power the Niads win.