Unreliable starting on Perkins Range 4's

[PNM]

2 banks of new batteries. #1 bank is two group 24s starting batteries in parallel with a total of 1600 CCA. #2 bank is 2 deep discharge golf cart batteries in series.

Cleaned up and/or replaced all battery power and ground cables. Cleaned up all generator and alternator connections.

Cleaned all of the engine connections including the starting button on the starboard engine at the upper helm.

Still have to hit the starter button 3-4 times on either engine to get the starter engaged and turning the engines. The engines start instantly once the starter turns the engines.

Shorted across the solenoid battery input and output connections and got strong starter motor spin. Can hear both solenoids mechanical "clicks" when I hit the start button on both engines. So, it sounds like the solenoids are not stuck.

Starting to think I need to rebuild both AC Delco starters. Either the solenoids internal electrical contacts are bad or the starter brushes are gone.

I still need to clean up the start button connections on the port engine, but the connections have been cleaned on the starboard engine. I am having the same issue with both engines.

It's kinda hard to believe both starters would fail at the same time, but that is all I can think of after all I have done.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Barking Sands]

Do you have the two smaller relays on the RH side of the engine near the starter? Many later models have two relays, sometimes red, positioned there. One is a stop relay and the other is a start relay. If you have those I would check them for corrosion, clean contacts and if need be swap the stop relay for the start relay since they are the same and see if that helps. There is a recent thread here with pictures and diagrams.

You can see them in this diagram, it also runs through a nuetral safety switch if you have one.

 

[O C Diver]

What's the smallest battery cable in your starting loop? How long are the battery cables from the batteries?

Not sure from your description if the engines start off the same batteries or one is wired to one bank and one is wired to the other. If they both start off the same bank, I would be checking those batteries and the wiring again.

Before replacing the starters, I would take a single battery from another vehicle, temporarily wire it to one engine with the shortest battery cables possible, and try starting it.

Ted

 

[jleonard]

Before starting to switch parts around I would do a proper voltage drop test. An internet search will lead you a couple of good utube how to videos.

 

[DavidM]

My guess is that the contacts in your starter switch have corroded, so that is why you have to hit it 2-3 times to pull in the solenoid and start. Does the solenoid click the first time you try to start and it doesn't turn over. If not then it almost certainly is the switch.

David

 

[Jc180]

We have the Range 4 135hp naturally aspirated engine. Like you, the engine always starts immediately. When you shorted across solenoid and got instant starts, you proved starters, solenoids, batteries and big cables ok. You also proved excessive voltage drop in start switch circuits. Curious that both engines have same problem. Suspect a loose or corroded connection (or maybe damaged wire) somewhere. Is it possible both switches powered from same source?

 

[Jc180]

We have the Range 4 135hp naturally aspirated engine. Like you, the engine always starts immediately. When you shorted across solenoid and got instant starts, you proved starters, solenoids, batteries and big cables ok. You also proved excessive voltage drop in start switch circuits. Curious that both engines have same problem. Suspect a loose or corroded connection (or maybe damaged wire) somewhere. Is it possible both switches powered from same source?

Note that you are cleaning start switch connections. Take a look at the power source end of the wires. Could either be fed from solenoid, alternator, or start battery terminal. Suspect who ever wired your boat got lazy and only ran one wire from one source and then jumpered to second switch.

 

[PNM]

unreliable Perkins starting

I will recheck all of the wiring.

From this discussion, I realized I did not clean the tranny neutral lock-out switch connections and the possibility that the starter buttons could be corroded internally. They are 43 years old.

I will check the resistance on the buttons. They are expensive and I have 4 of them, so I don't want to replace them unless necessary.

But!!!!!! I want the engines to start on FIRST attempt or I am not going to be happy anchoring in the Chesapeake.

Rebuilding the starters is still a possibility but I am becoming increasingly suspicious that the problem is old connections and switches/buttons. It is just not likely that both of these very heavy duty starter/solenoids failed at the same time.

I've done everything to make sure max amperage gets to the battery lug on the solenoid and that the engine grounds are good.

But, I forgot that reduced amperage to the solenoid lug could cause the magnetic actuator to move without making aggressive contact with the internal electrical contacts or for that matter without fully engaging the bendix gear with the flywheel.

Thanks for all of your thoughts and wisdom.

 

[Lepke]

Inside the solenoid is a copper disk that contacts two heavy copper contacts (cable to the starter, cable from the battery) when the button is pushed. The disk rotates slightly each time the starter is used to maintain a unpitted surface. Eventually the disk and contacts get pitted and don't make good contact. Either buy a new solenoid, or open up the existing one and file the contacts and disk until it's smooth again.

 

[TowLou]

Battery cables could be corroded internally if old. Depends on the length of the cables. Check your ground to all your motors. Put a meter to the starter see what volts you get after the selnoid when you hit the starter.

Also hit the starter...... kidding. It could have a dead spot to. But both naaah. Check your grounds.

 

[PNM]

Thanks for your comments. On another project for a day or two, then back to starting.

I will look at my solenoids to see if the lug end can be removed to polish the copper disk. The starter picture is just what I needed. I knew it worked like this, but could not picture how it was configured.

It is odd that both engines are acting the same, as they are not the same age. Both are Range 4 Perkins, 220hp, but the port engine is a much early model that was rebuilt when installed before I bought the boat. Thus, surprised that both are acting the same, thought the port engine is a little harder to start. Often the starboard engine starts on first or second try, while the port engine might take a number of attempts.

 

[Solly]

Try looking for something common to both engines since it seems to affect both. Maybe a bad ground somewhere. At the switches maybe ??
Did this come on suddenly ? If so what changed ??
Just some ideas...

 

[Comodave]

On our last boat we had a stop switch go bad so the engine wouldn’t start. I looked all over the internet to find another one. When I couldn’t find one I substituted a horn push button. It worked fine. The only issue was if I stood by the helm and leaned way over I would lean into the push button and the engine would stumble and start to stop. I had a friend that had a metal lathe and he made a sorta cup that went around the button so leaning on it wouldn’t push the button. Cheap fix.

 

[sunchaser]

Before replacing the starters, I would take a single battery from another vehicle, temporarily wire it to one engine with the shortest battery cables possible and try starting it.Ted

Yes

 

[rgano]

I had two push-button starter switches go bad on my Grand Banks. Cheap to try if you are into easter egging it.

 

[SailorGoneBad]

I replaced the relay on my FL210 with a $16 generic part from advanced auto. Felt like a genius, much cheaper and easier than replacing the starter.

 

[PNM]

Thanks for all of your expertise.

I bought two mechanics remote starter buttons - one each for starter & kill solenoids.

I attached the remote starter button first to the starter solenoid on the starboard engine and got instant start, then moved back - one step at a time - thru the start circuit. I got instant start on both sides of the neutral safety switch.

About 10 years ago, I installed a 10 element terminal block in the engine room for each engine. Most of the wiring between the terminal blocks and the engines was replaced with modern tinned marine wire and terminals.

When I attached the start button to the starter solenoid wire at the terminal block, instant start, but, when I attached the start button to the output side of the starter button in the lower helm - NO START!!! Yikes - the wires in the 43 year old harness are bad!!!!!

I cut off the terminals on the old harness start wires in the engine room then stripped back the insulation to install new terminals. I discovered significant oxidation on ALL of the multi-strands in the wire. I found the same situation, with somewhat less oxidation, on the button end at the lower helm.

Because the wire paths to the helms are about 20' and 40' from the engines and the wiring harness is virtually inaccessible, I opted for chemically cleaning the wire. I dipped the wire ends in vinegar & salt, then soda, used a steel wire brush, then applied CRC cleaner. Then I crimped on new terminals with the application of dielectric grease and adhesive shrink tubing on all connections. All but one of the wires came out like shiny new copper. One had a blacker oxidation that took two rounds and lots of brushing to get like shiny new.

While I was at it, it followed the same process on the kill circuit.

I tested the kill switch and solenoid, then started the starboard engine from the lower helm INSTANTLY!!!!!!! - for the first time in two years.

Tomorrow, I will finish the starboard upper helm connections, then, on to the port engine start circuit.

Whew!!! Lots of work. It takes about 5 minutes per connection to complete the cleaning and new terminal installation. Where I have enough wire, I try to strip back to clean copper, but have not yet been lucky.

During the process, I also learned that the neutral safety switch had been bypassed. Duh! That's why it started IN GEAR!!! I found the old wiring, now sporting cleaned connections and new terminals, works perfectly. And, she doesn't start in gear!!!

I know the perfect solution would have been to "pull" new wire, but that's a monster job, so I tried the clean & seal approach.

One other note. About 1/4 of my instruments at the upper helm haven't worked for years. I suspect cleaning the wire and replacing all of the terminals may "fix" some of them.

Your comments have been and will be appreciated.

 

[Comodave]

Glad it worked for you.

 

[Jc180]

Thanks for all of your expertise.

I bought two mechanics remote starter buttons - one each for starter & kill solenoids.

I attached the remote starter button first to the starter solenoid on the starboard engine and got instant start, then moved back - one step at a time - thru the start circuit. I got instant start on both sides of the neutral safety switch.

About 10 years ago, I installed a 10 element terminal block in the engine room for each engine. Most of the wiring between the terminal blocks and the engines was replaced with modern tinned marine wire and terminals.

When I attached the start button to the starter solenoid wire at the terminal block, instant start, but, when I attached the start button to the output side of the starter button in the lower helm - NO START!!! Yikes - the wires in the 43 year old harness are bad!!!!!

I cut off the terminals on the old harness start wires in the engine room then stripped back the insulation to install new terminals. I discovered significant oxidation on ALL of the multi-strands in the wire. I found the same situation, with somewhat less oxidation, on the button end at the lower helm.

Because the wire paths to the helms are about 20' and 40' from the engines and the wiring harness is virtually inaccessible, I opted for chemically cleaning the wire. I dipped the wire ends in vinegar & salt, then soda, used a steel wire brush, then applied CRC cleaner. Then I crimped on new terminals with the application of dielectric grease and adhesive shrink tubing on all connections. All but one of the wires came out like shiny new copper. One had a blacker oxidation that took two rounds and lots of brushing to get like shiny new.

While I was at it, it followed the same process on the kill circuit.

I tested the kill switch and solenoid, then started the starboard engine from the lower helm INSTANTLY!!!!!!! - for the first time in two years.

Tomorrow, I will finish the starboard upper helm connections, then, on to the port engine start circuit.

Whew!!! Lots of work. It takes about 5 minutes per connection to complete the cleaning and new terminal installation. Where I have enough wire, I try to strip back to clean copper, but have not yet been lucky.

During the process, I also learned that the neutral safety switch had been bypassed. Duh! That's why it started IN GEAR!!! I found the old wiring, now sporting cleaned connections and new terminals, works perfectly. And, she doesn't start in gear!!!

I know the perfect solution would have been to "pull" new wire, but that's a monster job, so I tried the clean & seal approach.

One other note. About 1/4 of my instruments at the upper helm haven't worked for years. I suspect cleaning the wire and replacing all of the terminals may "fix" some of them.

Your comments have been and will be appreciated.

Great perseverance and result. Congratulations!

 

[Barking Sands]

Outstanding. Its nice when the engine fires up instantly and it does so because you went through every connection. That kind of work and result raises confidance and self reliance. Even thought the wire probably needs changing..it will likely last several years. And when it fails again youll know exactly what to do. Or just schedule that on your "to do" calendar during some down time.

 

[PNM]

Clean oxidation on old copper wires

I cleaned up the oxidation on the port engine start/kill circuits thru the lower helm and she started instantly. I still need to complete the upper helm, but even from the upper helm both engines start immediately, now.

Lessons learned - 1. On old boats - mine is a '79 - the marine wiring is fewer heavier multi-strand wire with no tinning. IF ANYTHING IS UNRELIABLE, strip back to clean wire (or chemically clean - I used vinegar, soda, wire brush, CRC, etc.) It may fix your problem without engaging a mechanic or rewiring your yacht. The original "un-tinned" wire lasted 40 years before causing a problem. I am 78 Maybe I won't have to do it again

2. Don't worry for two years before doing the job: blush: When the job is done you will feel great satisfaction - well worth the work. You will also realize your old bones can crawl around in the engine room and survive - except for a couple of bumps on the head and scratches on the arms: dance:

3. While cleaning up every wire - one at a time - you will find other things that need to be fixed, avoiding future issues

Thanks to everyone for your help.