Varnish Maintenance

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Pack Mule

TF Site Team
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
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Vessel Name
Slo-Poke
Vessel Make
Jorgensen custom 44
After 3 years it's time for some varnish maintenance. We hit the aft sections of cap rail with 220 grit today and the plan is to apply two or three maintenance coats . The weather is going to be just right for next few days . We are just going to do sections at a time .
 

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Using Epifanes high gloss .
 

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If I had an admiral with Joy's brush talents, I'd be doing more varnishing, too!

I know I should be working on it more, but playing onboard is sooo much more fun!
 
I'm sure we won't get it all done, it's good cruising time around here also and William (knock on wood ) is running the best since we've owned him . It's taken 5 years but we've worked out a lot of bugs .
 
My tactic is to have no exterior wood. :D
 
Even my Weber BBQ has wooden handles it gives it character it separates it from a garbage bin :D
 
What is the epifanes going to top of?

I've got Cetol on my rails: would the epifanes stick to that?
 
We are applying this on top of 3 year old Epifanes . We replaced all the the teak 4 years ago and Epifanes is the only varnish this teak has ever seen .
If the Cetol is in good shape and not flaking off I would think that if you scuff up the Cetol and apply Epifanes thinned for the first coat it would work . I would talk to the Epifanes guys first . Some finishes are not compatible with each other . If you're happy with the Cetol it might be best to stick with it .
 
Oil based (Epifanes) should be compatible w any other oil based coating. I could assume Cetol is oil based but I really don't know what it is. But if it's well cured, sanded and cleaned there should be no problem w compatibility.
 
Yes Al , I'm a lucky guy . Joy just sent me these pics from the boat today . She is laying on the varnish today while I'm at work . She says it goes on like butter .
I will do all the prep work , and keep those high quality brushes she likes clean as long as she wants to lay down the varnish .:D
 

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"She says it goes on like butter"

Nice thick varnish is a joy to put on.
A pain to take off.
 
"She says it goes on like butter"

Nice thick varnish is a joy to put on.
A pain to take off.
Eric I think you know me better than that .If you put on right there's no reason to take it off .We thin Epifanes at least 20% before applying .
 
Marty,
We thin McKloski's spar varnish only on prep coats.
We use turpentine and kerosene to thin first and second coats about 1/3 each. As we go less kerosene and more varnish. Kerosene is used only as a penetrant and before any build. Then less turp until we're at 100% varnish.

All varnish needs to come off after several years but ours is holding up really well in our covered moorage. Only problem now is dust.
 
Marty,
We thin McKloski's spar varnish only on prep coats.
We use turpentine and kerosene to thin first and second coats about 1/3 each. As we go less kerosene and more varnish. Kerosene is used only as a penetrant and before any build. Then less turp until we're at 100% varnish.

All varnish needs to come off after several years but ours is holding up really well in our covered moorage. Only problem now is dust.
Yes we usually wind up at something close to 100% at the final coats but Epifanes is so thick especially if it's a can that has been opened a couple times.
If it gets too hard to flow I add a little Penatrol , maybe a capful. Then it glides. I also add Penatrol to oil base paint to help it flow.
 
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If you go to bare wood, 2 -3 coats of West Systems epoxy gets you to that deep varnished look faster. It still has to have a couple coats of varnish to protect the epoxy from UV. But it ends up looking like a dozen coats of varnish. I been doing it a long time and this is the fastest, long lasting way I found. But, I painted the varnish on most of the exterior on my boat.
 
Lepke,
How do you remove the epoxie when you want to wood down?
 
San Juan Yachts was all into that epoxy first then varnish, until they had to strip off a bunch of epoxy that had yellowed because the owner didn't keep on top of the varnish. Then they quit using epoxy.
 
Lepke,
How do you remove the epoxie when you want to wood down?

It doesn't soak very deeply into the wood, and epoxy sands just like wood does. 80 grit on an orbital and its gone. I would put sanding Jatoba more difficult than sanding epoxy and I have done hours and hours of both. If you want to get maximum longevity out of varnish, create a base of epoxy over wood and varnish away as if the epoxy wasn't there.
 
It doesn't soak very deeply into the wood, and epoxy sands just like wood does. 80 grit on an orbital and its gone. I would put sanding Jatoba more difficult than sanding epoxy and I have done hours and hours of both. If you want to get maximum longevity out of varnish, create a base of epoxy over wood and varnish away as if the epoxy wasn't there.
I wanted to try this from the beginning but just didn't know enough about it. It was new teak lumber that we had several man hours in making new rails,new doors,hatch and bulkhead.
I learned varnish and painting from my Dad. He always told me to keep same brand name products together. He was old school. I remember him saying varnishing raw lumber is like dating, you don't want to lay it on thick in the beginning, thin the first few coats to allow varnish to get to know the raw lumber then you can lay it on heavy. I miss him, he was a damn good painter. I still have some of his brushes. I do ok at varnish but nothing like him .
This is after 8 coats. Dad always said that magic doesn't happen until coat 13.
Most all of our rails are laminated up to get the curve and width. They would have looked better had I used a one piece rail. I had to laminate because it was the only way to make the yield work out on the lumber otherwise I would've had several short pieces and several scarf joints and a bunch of cutoff pieces that wouldn't have been good for anything. Now we have kind of a butcher block look.
 

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I wanted to try this from the beginning but just didn't know enough about it. It was new teak lumber that we had several man hours in making new rails,new doors,hatch and bulkhead.
I learned varnish and painting from my Dad. He always told me to keep same brand name products together. He was old school. I remember him saying varnishing raw lumber is like dating, you don't want to lay it on thick in the beginning, thin the first few coats to allow varnish to get to know the raw lumber then you can lay it on heavy. I miss him, he was a damn good painter. I still have some of his brushes. I do ok at varnish but nothing like him .
This is after 8 coats. Dad always said that magic doesn't happen until coat 13.
Most all of our rails are laminated up to get the curve and width. They would have looked better had I used a one piece rail. I had to laminate because it was the only way to make the yield work out on the lumber otherwise I would've had several short pieces and several scarf joints and a bunch of cutoff pieces that would have been good for anything. Now we have kind of a butcher block look.

Your dad was right.

The case for epoxy as a base is that it significantly reduces the chances of moisture infiltration below the varnish, no matter how many coats are applied. Look at any caprail. The failure, assuming lots of top coats, is always at the seams and epoxy can prevent that. Plus, if you get a ding that penetrates those coats, the epoxy prevents the moisture from moving laterally through the wood and lifting the surrounding varnish.
 
What about those joints Delfin?
Where the joints work and move around a bit epoxie must crack like anything else .. I would think.

I've always tried to get the basecoats to soak/penetrate into the wood as deeply as possible and use something flexible enough to stay together at the joints and bungs where the water usually finds it's way under the finish and wicks it's way up and down the grain of the wood and leaves black streaks of mould under the varnish. To insure maximum flexibility I use a very flexible but relatively soft varnish.
For maximum penetration I use kerosene in my turp (about 50/50) and lots of turp w not much varnish for my first coats. The use of kerosene is not voodoo from the TF pages of Eric H but straight dope from the pages of "Skiffs and Schooners" by R. D. Culler. He's one of the foremost authorities on wood boat construction and finishing.

Sand it off in the end? That sounds like serious work compared to a bit of heat and a good very slightly dulled tungsten carbide scraper w a very slightly curved blade. For the scraper I would never buy an old school carbon steel scraper again. Very dificult to keep from burning the wood though using heat from a propane torch. My wife uses baking soda, hydrogen peroxide and apple cider vinegar to remove varnish. Commercial teak cleaners are very hard on the wood. Never use them.
 
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Scarf Joints

Looking great Marty, hats off to the Admiral!

When we bought our boat it was obvious that the scarf joints were the weakest point for water intrusion under the finish.

I elected to open the joints up with an 1/8" router bit, then sanding a radius along the mating edges and sealing the end grain with epoxy while coating the rails.

The sealed gap was filled with Black DAP Alex 230 caulk, allowed to cure then top coated with varnish (pre-tested adhesion) along with the rails.

Two years between re-coats and I've not had one joint fail. I know it's not traditional....but I'm liking it!
 
480ft of varnish treated in less than 1 day.
See you again in 5 to 10 years.
 

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I like it too Aft Deck,
The "fatter" the joint the less the varnish needs to flex.
 
Looking great Marty, hats off to the Admiral!

When we bought our boat it was obvious that the scarf joints were the weakest point for water intrusion under the finish.

I elected to open the joints up with an 1/8" router bit, then sanding a radius along the mating edges and sealing the end grain with epoxy while coating the rails.

The sealed gap was filled with Black DAP Alex 230 caulk, allowed to cure then top coated with varnish (pre-tested adhesion) along with the rails.

Two years between re-coats and I've not had one joint fail. I know it's not traditional....but I'm liking it!
Yes you need a decent size joint at least 1/8" to allow the caulking to work. The end grain at a scarf joint will just suck up any water that's comes close.
 
480ft of varnish treated in less than 1 day.
See you again in 5 to 10 years.
Looks good . We will more than likely get to the point of paint if we last long enough. I actually thought about using mahagony in the beginning and applying a good primer and top coating with some Caribbean colors. I brought it up to Joy and got the :rolleyes: look .
 
What about those joints Delfin?
Where the joints work and move around a bit epoxie must crack like anything else .. I would think.

I've always tried to get the basecoats to soak/penetrate into the wood as deeply as possible and use something flexible enough to stay together at the joints and bungs where the water usually finds it's way under the finish and wicks it's way up and down the grain of the wood and leaves black streaks of mould under the varnish. To insure maximum flexibility I use a very flexible but relatively soft varnish.
For maximum penetration I use kerosene in my turp (about 50/50) and lots of turp w not much varnish for my first coats. The use of kerosene is not voodoo from the TF pages of Eric H but straight dope from the pages of "Skiffs and Schooners" by R. D. Culler. He's one of the foremost authorities on wood boat construction and finishing.

Sand it off in the end? That sounds like serious work compared to a bit of heat and a good very slightly dulled tungsten carbide scraper w a very slightly curved blade. For the scraper I would never buy an old school carbon steel scraper again. Very dificult to keep from burning the wood though using heat from a propane torch. My wife uses baking soda, hydrogen peroxide and apple cider vinegar to remove varnish. Commercial teak cleaners are very hard on the wood. Never use them.

On my Cape George cutter, the cap rails were teak and were joined with Thiokol so the joints could work. I always had failing varnish at the edges of those joints. I wooded them, diluted epoxy to the thickness of rubbing alcohol with MEK and saturated the wood as well as the joints, lightly sanded to settle the grain, laid on another coat of unthickened epoxy, sanded that flat, then laid on the varnish. No more problems. Every other place with no working joints - Port Orford cedar cabin sides, Iroki Sampson's bit, laminated fir bowsprit, spruce mast - all these were treated the same way and even sailing around in Hawaii everything held up well with maintenance coating only needed once every couple of years. YMMD.
 
I'm inspired Marty. Looks great. Maybe I'll be breaking out the Epifines this week when I get back home..

I am even more jealous of Delfin now to learn that his previous boat was Cape George cutter. Two beautiful boats in one lifetime. Sigh.
 
I'm inspired Marty. Looks great. Maybe I'll be breaking out the Epifines this week when I get back home..

I am even more jealous of Delfin now to learn that his previous boat was Cape George cutter. Two beautiful boats in one lifetime. Sigh.

We sailed her for 20 years. Made it to Hawaii in 18 days from Eureka and back in 21, which is pretty good time. Loved that boat.
 
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