Wynns’ Search for Electric Tender

[JD Ray]

Jason and Nikki Wynn of the “Gone with the Wynns” YouTube channel are in the process of having a new sailing cat built for them. Leading up to that, they’re on the hunt for a new tender. This week’s video is about electric drives, a fun and interesting watch.

https://youtu.be/U_ayeunqGmA

 

[psneeld]

Did they say how they plan on charging the "E" batteries?

Plus... the world may have less gas available in some places, but the more out of the way places you go, the population is still using gas for many things.

If they didn't address the charging issue in this video (if they did I apologize I missed it)....I hope they do in future ones.

Running a tiny e-motor off solar charged batteries, charging 5hp or greater engines I think would be an issue if you are also trying to run a boat's house bank off solar.

If using "fuel" the their favoring an "E" outboard for pollution reasons is the typical BS you hear from "pseudo" reviewers on e-media.

 

[Chris Leigh-Jones]

This is a journey my wife and I have just considered. We really wanted to go electric but power and especially range was against that logic especially for a heavy tender needing 50hp or more. The successful electric boats seem to rely on light construction to create useable range and we can't go that route for operation in ice. I have hope that EV technology will create the range in batteries that's needed over the next 5 years or so, at least if YouTube is to be believed. We built a tender using 110hp inboard diesel and water jet to safeguard my children's toes. No gasoline on this boat. Well that's my two pennies worth and I do like those lightweight tenders from NZ, they look super fun.

 

[mvweebles]

Did they say how they plan on charging the "E" batteries?.

On their old catamaran, they had a very large solar array - electric galley and they never did replace their generator when it crapped out. On the new boat, I'm sure they plan on massive solar. Before buying their sailboat 5-7 years ago, they were RV'ers. They were experienced with solar/off-grid back then. They have a ton of experience with solar and off grid living.

Peter

 

[rsn48]

If you go to the video (to lazy to find it) of the specs for their new cat you will find it is a pretty high spec'd electric/diesel hybrid. And a crap load of solar. So they will charge the batteries from the boats internal batteries which will be topped up by solar and when transiting by their electric/diesel hybrid engines.

 

[boathealer]

Did they say how they plan on charging the "E" batteries?

Plus... the world may have less gas available in some places, but the more out of the way places you go, the population is still using gas for many things.

If they didn't address the charging issue in this video (if they did I apologize I missed it)....I hope they do in future ones.

Running a tiny e-motor off solar charged batteries, charging 5hp or greater engines I think would be an issue if you are also trying to run a boat's house bank off solar.

If using "fuel" the their favoring an "E" outboard for pollution reasons is the typical BS you hear from "pseudo" reviewers on e-media.

We charged our 24V Torqeedo 6hp outboard battery bank with our main solar panel setup. We had 1800Wh of LiFePO4 in the forward bow locker of the dinghy. Granted, we never went more than 3-4 miles anywhere in the dinghy, but the 1400W of solar and 800Ah house batteries charged it just fine every few days without putting much of a dent in our regular house battery cycle.

 

[psneeld]

OK for them, but for the larger E engines the battery charge demand would probably leave a good portion of us out of it. It doesn't take "a lot of experience" to figure it out but it is nice that the new tech will soon allow these kinds of setups in both the dink and main boat.

My wallet would cry at all the costs to be that "green".

Although my new 16 foot canoe with electric trolling motor and 150AH Lithium battery will be pretty sweet for back bay and lake fishing. As I dip my toe into this new tech..... maybe I'll grow my one hair long and wear flowered shirts and take up trying illegal substances....

 

[FWT]

OK for them, but for the larger E engines the battery charge demand would probably leave a good portion of us out of it. It doesn't take "a lot of experience" to figure it out but it is nice that the new tech will soon allow these kinds of setups in both the dink and main boat.

My wallet would cry at all the costs to be that "green".

Although my new 16 foot canoe with electric trolling motor and 150AH Lithium battery will be pretty sweet for back bay and lake fishing. As I dip my toe into this new tech..... maybe I'll grow my one hair long and wear flowered shirts and take up trying illegal substances....

I hear you on the cost of green.

I went electric on my buy 2 weeks ago for reasons that had zip to do with green.

All in, new hard dink and ePropulsion was approximately $6500 including some delivery costs. I see rib + motor combos all the time at $15k plus, built to plane of course. So by that sort of comparison my route was a comparative bargain. And I could have gone the cheaper rib route and spent less.

That hard dink they were testing alone was a lot more than my total package.

No doubt some do it for green reasons. If that's their thing, go for it.

 

[slowgoesit]

So many times nowadays when someone says they are "going green" it just means that the pollution is in someone else's backyard. IE; battery production, battery recycling, high environmental costs of producing solar cells, etc. But they are "Green"!
We went with solar and LiFePO4, knowing the costs to the environment, but the real reasons were reducing/eliminating our generator usage, reducing recharge time, as well as other reasons.

 

[mvweebles]

We went solar at a condo in Mexico as a hedge against electricity rates knowing we'd be on a relatively fixed income once retired. What a thrill it was when we first threw the solar switch!

The business case for solar is a no-brainer. Leave aside the politics and such. The convenience, resale benefits, and mid-long term cost benefits are a slam dunk.

Peter

 

[MYTraveler]

The business case for solar is a no-brainer. Leave aside the politics and such. The convenience, resale benefits, and mid-long term cost benefits are a slam dunk.

The only time I have seen the costs to be justified by economics is with government subsidies. If solar made sense, large distribution buildings in places like AZ and NV would be full of panels. And in those areas, and many others, for-rent distribution space is a capital intensive with competition fiercely eliminating inefficiencies -- if there were a way to make solar would, someone would, and if doesn't work on the roof of a 500,000+ sf building the price would be competitive with utility provided electricity (at least not in major US cities). But the only such buildings on which you see solar panels on government or user owned. Every time I have looked at the economics, it didn't come close to providing a decent return on (let alone return of) investment.

 

[mvweebles]

The only time I have seen the costs to be justified by economics is with government subsidies. If solar made sense, large distribution buildings in places like AZ and NV would be full of panels. And in those areas, and many others, for-rent distribution space is a capital intensive with competition fiercely eliminating inefficiencies -- if there were a way to make solar would, someone would, and if doesn't work on the roof of a 500,000+ sf building the price would be competitive with utility provided electricity (at least not in major US cities). But the only such buildings on which you see solar panels on government or user owned. Every time I have looked at the economics, it didn't come close to providing a decent return on (let alone return of) investment.

I will be blunt. You are wrong about the business case for solar. Your data is 10-years old. Many may not be willing to shoulder the upfront costs, but the mid/long term numbers pencil out.

BTW - if you've driven through the Sunbelt lately (AZ, NV, etc), you will indeed see thousands of solar installs.

Time to read-up.

Peter

 

[psneeld]

I have been in places and situations where solar had WAYYYYYY less output than required.... for those situations a backup is great.... or you better have way more storage than some here either can or will have.

I get it though, as I was working towards 100% solar except for air conditioning. The additional to power a dink battery of a lot of battery watt hours was another reach that I didn't have to contemplate but I see where some newer setups can easily accommodate it.

 

[mvweebles]

I have been in places and situations where solar had WAYYYYYY less output than required.... for those situations a backup is great.... or you better have way more storage than some here either can or will have.

I get it though, as I was working towards 100% solar except for air conditioning. The additional to power a dink battery of a lot of battery watt hours was another reach that I didn't have to contemplate but I see where some newer setups can easily accommodate it.

The reason I quoted the Wynn's experience is because the efforts to size their system(s) - they've done several and reported on the results.

There are use cases for basic top-up power (needs regular supplemental gen/alternator power); average power needs (needs occasional supplemental power); or off-grid/size for peak/excess power (rarely needs supplemental power). The first two assume some sort of generator or grid tie. Pure off-grid is a rigorous use case because you have to budget for all usage - including charging an e-outboard. There are 1000s of off-grid houses throughout central America that include A/C.

Can one of the naysayers please point me to even one person who went solar and said it was a waste of time and money? Just one person please. Because I can point you to dozens (1000s if I had a bigger rolodex) who took the plunge and are enthusiastically adding more solar.

Any takers?

Peter

 

[FWT]

Peter:

Yeah, I can. But not really for the point you are discussing.

One of my homes is in an upscale development with an HOA. Lots run 1-3 acres, so many have some room to work with. One guy bought a nice place, and immediately installed a freaking solar farm in his backyard. The neighborhood went nuts with that, and used the very quiet and almost dormant HOA to address it. Bottom line is that no one wants to be the enemy of every neighbor and he ripped out the solar farm, made do with much less, mounted on a part of his roof, and there was peace again.

We are talking solar, but wind has had its issues too. A local community college installed a massive windmill. In their case, pretty much everyone felt it was more about making a political statement than anything else. Its not the best area for wind, and its in a big migratory bird traffic area. My nickname for the thing was "goose chopper." It just never worked. It would run for a few weeks then be down for mechanical issues for a number of months. They gave up on it after maybe 3 years and had it removed.

 

[psneeld]

The reason I quoted the Wynn's experience is because the efforts to size their system(s) - they've done several and reported on the results.

There are use cases for basic top-up power (needs regular supplemental gen/alternator power); average power needs (needs occasional supplemental power); or off-grid/size for peak/excess power (rarely needs supplemental power). The first two assume some sort of generator or grid tie. Pure off-grid is a rigorous use case because you have to budget for all usage - including charging an e-outboard. There are 1000s of off-grid houses throughout central America that include A/C.

Can one of the naysayers please point me to even one person who went solar and said it was a waste of time and money? Just one person please. Because I can point you to dozens (1000s if I had a bigger rolodex) who took the plunge and are enthusiastically adding more solar.

Any takers?

Peter

Yeah...plenty....except they chose NOT to go totally solar because of the total upgrade.

Those of us that bought less expensive boats with gensets.... that lasted for decades can easily say spending thousands more for solar setups and sizeable storage was a waste of money for many cruising lifestyles.

Do you really think some of us are that stupid that we can't do the math? We DIDN'T go totally solar because it WASN'T worth it at the time for us/the boat.

I think solar is great...but it isn't for all.... all the time.

My only thoughts on the OP were that some of the WAYYYYY less experienced boaters who may have only a slight grasp of the entire DC/solar etc situation may want more info that the completely amateur videos often touted on YouTube just don't cover.

 

[JD Ray]

A windmill is a terrible way to power a dinghy.

 

[mvweebles]

Yeah...plenty....except they chose NOT to go totally solar because of the total upgrade.

Those of us that bought less expensive boats with gensets.... that lasted for decades can easily say spending thousands more for solar setups and sizeable storage was a waste of money for many cruising lifestyles.

That's why I say mid/long range solar pencils out. I was pretty clear that if you can't shoulder the upfront costs,, then it doesn't work. Add in an existing Genset and you effectively have subsidized power (FWT - take note, the subsidy works both directions).

I just don't understand why the vocal anti-bodies are universally people who don't have nor have tried solar. Smacks of sour grapes.

Peter

 

[JD Ray]

So, many of you may know that I’m not the most experienced boater in the world. I joined this forum to learn about boating and trawlers, and I continue to do that. What you may not know is that I’ve spent most of my career in the energy industry, about fifteen years in total. Bounced around from department to department, company to company, I’ve learned a lot.

Here are some basic facts about energy (in no particular order):

* Petroleum fuels are amazingly dense in raw energy per kilogram or liter, so much so that we happily burn them in engines that, at best, achieve about 35% recovery of the stored energy and we’re happy with that.

* Generating electricity in power plants that burn fossil fuels (diesel, natural gas, coal, etc.) and transmitting it thousands of miles is still more efficient than running a generator in your back yard because power plants are tuned as perfectly as they can be, run turbine engines (which are way more efficient than piston engines) and have steam turbines that capture some of the exhaust heat and turn THAT into electricity, making the overall system even more efficient.

* Wind energy is only financially viable at commercial or industrial scale. The cost to install a 600W wind generator and maintain it over its relatively-short useful life far exceeds the cost of solar when you factor in the $/kWh produced.

* The price of solar installations has come down so significantly in recent years that unless you’re looking at today’s prices on an installation, you’re probably operating on out-of-date information.

* As a GENERAL STATEMENT (factoid, not fact), solar produces about 4x the kWh per day as the entire system is rated for in kW, so a system with 4 250W panels (e.g. 1 kW) should produce about 4 kWh of useful energy.

* The chain of efficiency for electric power systems from the point of generation (solar, wind, petrol, whatever) is about 96% to the point of use (car wheels, prop, etc.).

* One horsepower is about 750 Watts, so one kilowatt is around 1.33 h.p.

* Solar energy strikes the Earth at somewhere around 700 W/sqM on average (more at the equator, less at the poles), about half of the energy that we get in orbit around the Earth (the atmosphere soaks up a bunch).

* The best solar panels available today are around 22% efficient, so around 150 W/sq m. So a sq m of solar panels is going to give you about 600 Wh/d. You need a lot of surface area for solar to be really viable as a primary energy source, but it’s achievable (look at the Silent Yachts catamarans).

…sigh… I could go on.

Say what you will about electric power systems. Maybe you like them, maybe you don’t (I do), they appear to be the future. If you watched the video I posted elsewhere about the LEEN Trimaran Trawler 72, at one point in the video the guy said the 20kW genset could be used to push the boat at 6 kts on six liters per hour consumption in the event the main drive diesel went toes up. Makes me wonder what they would do if the weight of the main drive engine wasn’t included.

At any rate, I just wanted to share a neat video on some people’s search for an electric tender. They’ve been at this stuff for years, and really know what they’re doing. I prefer to learn from them than… well, than not.

Cheers.

JD

 

[MYTraveler]

I will be blunt. You are wrong about the business case for solar. Your data is 10-years old. Many may not be willing to shoulder the upfront costs, but the mid/long term numbers pencil out.

BTW - if you've driven through the Sunbelt lately (AZ, NV, etc), you will indeed see thousands of solar installs.

Time to read-up.

Peter

My data isn't 10 years old and I am an owner and developer of industrial properties, so I have a huge stake in using the roofs of these buildings to make a profit, if possible. The upfront costs are literally irrelevant. Industrial properties are tremendously capital intensive to build and most developers today (or at least a few months ago) would be satisfied with a 7% return. If solar offered anything close to that, it would be common. And the only solar I have seen is in government and owner-operator buildings. You don't see any of the big REITs doing it, and you don't see it on the vast majority of even Amazon buildings. It doesn't pay.

What is the point of your gratuitously rude comments? Does it make you feel smart or something? It certainly isn't persuasive and it certainly doesn't get my respect.

 

[psneeld]

That's why I say mid/long range solar pencils out. I was pretty clear that if you can't shoulder the upfront costs,, then it doesn't work. Add in an existing Genset and you effectively have subsidized power (FWT - take note, the subsidy works both directions).

I just don't understand why the vocal anti-bodies are universally people who don't have nor have tried solar. Smacks of sour grapes.

Peter

Again wayyyy out of line.

Some of us have done the math. That is the BOTTOM line....unless your math is smarter than mine.

If solar/wind makes sense...great...if not then listening to outliers is the dumbest thing you can do.

Solar is the future...but not for everyone and not right now....maybe.

I decided on a lithium phosphate battery for my new electric trolling motor canoe because of energy density for weight. But the cost of the battery if weight wasn't a concern still just ain't worth it. I also had to buy a new battery charger at extra cost.....

So please don't dare lecture me about sour grapes...I had/have solar on both my boat and RV...I did the math and had limitations on space and weight on both platforms. Without limitations and a big enough budget...sure...quiet and simple is great...but not always practical.

 

[mvweebles]

Again wayyyy out of line.



Some of us have done the math. That is the BOTTOM line....unless your math is smarter than mine.
.

You're right. You're always right. Your experience with a canoe and a trolling motor trumps people with 10+ years experience with significant off-grid solar systems because, well, you're always right and your math is, again, always right (not that you ever show your homework).

But I will agree. A 40-year old Taiwan trawler with a serviceable generator would not have a strong business case for solar, at least not in the short term (which I conceded at the outset). For that, I am WAAAYYYY out of line. Mea culpa

Peter

 

[Crux]

On their old catamaran, they had a very large solar array - electric galley and they never did replace their generator when it crapped out. On the new boat, I'm sure they plan on massive solar. Before buying their sailboat 5-7 years ago, they were RV'ers. They were experienced with solar/off-grid back then. They have a ton of experience with solar and off grid living.

Peter

I think it 'crapped out' for want of a starter

 

[OldDan1943]

This makes for great read but, I shall leave all this to the next generation.
I have minimalist system on my boat, that's all I want.

 

[Benthic2]

Guys.....remember: "boating" has different meanings for different people. Some "boaters" just want a place to hang out and have some cold beers on the weekend. Their boat may sit idle 6.9 days/week and all they need to run is a small fridge. For others, "boating" means crossing oceans, doing laundry and cooking 15 meals/day.

Just because most boaters have similar problems, doesn't necessarily mean they will have similar solutions.

 

[slowgoesit]

Thread Warning, Play Nce!

Let's please Play Nice, and leave off the personal attacks, shall we?

 

[jbinbi]

Coming from the sailing side, on my 38' cat, I had 600W of solar on 2 panels over my davits. I could have had another 600 W easily on the 'roof'.

These days, most cruising cats have at least that and the larger new ones are coming w close to 2kW of solar, and 800Ah of LiFePo. In sunny climes, w 2kW of solar, you can easily put back 500+A per day. So recharging your Torquedo dinghy motor is not a big deal.

If you are looking to run your dinghy with 4 people at 15kts for 10mi a day, electric CURRENTLY is not going to be a good choice. If you can go 5kts for 2mi a day, no problem.

Greenline yachts 40' currently does 6kts for about 6 hours on electric, and that boat isn't really optimized for electric. But in a decade, with advances in solar and battery, I can easily see 3x, so now all of a sudden you can see a loop boat that can do 100mi at 6 kts.

In 2 of my condos, we are seriously looking at solar to put back into the grid and reduce our electric bill for running elevators, parking garage lights, etc. The biggest issue is that codes for mounting panels on top of a 25 story high rise are not the same for mounting on a single family home's roof. Many single family roofs have 6kw of solar, that is about a 60A service. Not going to run the electric dryer while running the oven and the AC, the real issue is the storage as the current grid WAS setup to handle peak loads and allow you to run everything you want when you want (thought that doesn't work well in many parts of the country during the summer). You can't do that with a 60A service. But double that, and it starts becoming feasible.

In the cold Northeast USA, even with short winter days, but long summer ones, solar payback is currently about 7 years.

Sorry for putting a bunch of different topics in the same post, I was responding the a few of the posts in this thread about different aspects of solar, from dinghy to houses.

 

[slowgoesit]

For us, Solar on the boat is not about "payback", "Return on Investment", or even "economics".

In the first case, nothing about our boat is in any way an "investment". The boat is a depreciating asset, so trying to get any return on "investment" from a depreciating asset is kind of silly, isn't it?
It is about convenience, comfort, and enjoyment. Solar, once the initial $$ outlay is made, and the system is installed is pretty much hands off. Except for periodic system inspection and washing of the panels, it is pretty much maintenance free.
I don't have to start a generator, do oil changes, replace belts, clean strainers, or do anything else in the morning in order to start recharging my house bank from the previous nights usage.
Even here in Glacier Bay, Alaska, about as far North as we intend on cruising, on a sunny day, our 2180 watt (maximum rated) panel array is generating over 1400 watts peak on a sunny day, so our house bank is back to 100% SOC by 1000 or 1100 every sunny day. Granted, it takes longer on overcast or rainy days, but it still at least keeps up with daily usage.

Once again it's not about economics, it's about quality of life, at least for us.

 

[twistedtree]

Getting back to the dinghy selection, as was earlier stated, I agree it will all be about recharging the tender. If their solar is enough, then it will be a great system. But when they have to use the engines to recharge, it's worse than just using a engine to directly power the boat in the first place. So you really want solar to cover all your needs 90%+ of the time.



The make or break will be all about their propulsion needs, and how much it exceeds house power use. They will have a 40kwh battery bank and 5kw of solar. Let's say the solar actually yields 4kw for 4hrs each day, so 16kwh. That's plenty of power for house use, but when used for propulsion they will draw the batteries down a lot. In that case it will take 2-3 days to recharge, assuming mild house loads.


Now add in the tender. Their goal is a 20 kt tender with 20 miles of range, if I remember correctly. That will be 20-30kwh for such a trip, and require around the same 2-3 days to recharge. And that's in addition to whatever time it takes to top off the main boat's battery bank.


So if you use the electric propulsion in the main boat, anchor, then go for a tender trip, you are looking at 4-5 days at anchor to get everything recharged. If that fits their cruising style, then it could work well.


Now these are all very rough estimates, but I think it puts it in perspective for real operation. Yes, they have lots of off-grid living and solar experience, but it's all with house loads. Propulsion is an order of magnitude more power, and changes things considerably.

 

[psneeld]

Getting back to the dinghy selection, as was earlier stated, I agree it will all be about recharging the tender. If their solar is enough, then it will be a great system. But when they have to use the engines to recharge, it's worse than just using a engine to directly power the boat in the first place. So you really want solar to cover all your needs 90%+ of the time.



The make or break will be all about their propulsion needs, and how much it exceeds house power use. They will have a 40kwh battery bank and 5kw of solar. Let's say the solar actually yields 4kw for 4hrs each day, so 16kwh. That's plenty of power for house use, but when used for propulsion they will draw the batteries down a lot. In that case it will take 2-3 days to recharge, assuming mild house loads.


Now add in the tender. Their goal is a 20 kt tender with 20 miles of range, if I remember correctly. That will be 20-30kwh for such a trip, and require around the same 2-3 days to recharge. And that's in addition to whatever time it takes to top off the main boat's battery bank.


So if you use the electric propulsion in the main boat, anchor, then go for a tender trip, you are looking at 4-5 days at anchor to get everything recharged. If that fits their cruising style, then it could work well.


Now these are all very rough estimates, but I think it puts it in perspective for real operation. Yes, they have lots of off-grid living and solar experience, but it's all with house loads. Propulsion is an order of magnitude more power, and changes things considerably.