10 Common Buyers’ mistakes during Survey
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CharlieO.
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I agree with Shawn, I will decline to run my 45 year old at WOT for the sea trial. I'm not going to buy my neighbors tractor and take off across his field at WOT low gear just to see if it can do it before I buy it.
If there is a P+S agreement is what will be performed at sea trial stipulated or just assumed? Just curious because we went against all advice and bought without survey or sea trial. No regrets.
If there is a P+S agreement is what will be performed at sea trial stipulated or just assumed? Just curious because we went against all advice and bought without survey or sea trial. No regrets.
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mvweebles
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According to two examples I found via Google, buyer has very broad rights to perform inspections to their discretion. Doesn't mean a seller has to allow, but it obviously means buyer can easily exit the deal if a desired inspection is refused or the results are not satisfactory in their subjective opinion. HERE is one example that is fairly typical:
[Sale is contingent upon] Buyer receiving a satisfactory inspection, survey and/or trial run, at buyer's sole discretion.
I also picked-up this nugget in one version of the P&S that places risk with Seller until transaction completes:The SELLER shall bear all risk of loss or damage to the YACHT, or to any person or property on said YACHT until closing
Regardless of where an owner/seller lands on topic of sustained WOT test, from a buyer's perspective, it's in your interest to know whether you have a successful sea trial before you commit to the expense of a full hull survey and haul. Peter
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ranger58sb
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Our sea trial and mechanical survey were best done simultaneously... since the MAN guy had his laptop connected to the engines throughout all that.
Seller attempted WOT on request, engines temps began to climb toward overheat immediately -- and engine alarms followed -- as expected, actually, since it was already obvious by that point that seller had no idea what the word "maintenance" meant.
My survey/sea trial objective in that was mostly focused on whether the engines were recoverable -- or not. At a buy price negotiated specifically around that whole "he never did much service" thing.
So far, that's worked out... but the WOT test (attempt) was an important part of the deal. In our case, it didn't need 5 minutes (IIRC) but I really needed to run that test long enough to see whether the engines would start to overheat as expected.
Had the seller been able to demonstrate a decent maintenance regime, had the engines and mechanical spaces been ship shape... I might have thought WOT slightly less important, maybe more about props than engines.
Given all the built-in instrumentation and alarms and so forth, temps never actually got high enough to cause any subsequent issues.
Not sure that would have been as easy to monitor/control with a mechanical engine and analog gauges?
-Chris
Seller attempted WOT on request, engines temps began to climb toward overheat immediately -- and engine alarms followed -- as expected, actually, since it was already obvious by that point that seller had no idea what the word "maintenance" meant.
My survey/sea trial objective in that was mostly focused on whether the engines were recoverable -- or not. At a buy price negotiated specifically around that whole "he never did much service" thing.
So far, that's worked out... but the WOT test (attempt) was an important part of the deal. In our case, it didn't need 5 minutes (IIRC) but I really needed to run that test long enough to see whether the engines would start to overheat as expected.
Had the seller been able to demonstrate a decent maintenance regime, had the engines and mechanical spaces been ship shape... I might have thought WOT slightly less important, maybe more about props than engines.
Given all the built-in instrumentation and alarms and so forth, temps never actually got high enough to cause any subsequent issues.
Not sure that would have been as easy to monitor/control with a mechanical engine and analog gauges?
-Chris
rslifkin
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With good gauges it should have been possible to see the temp readings trending upward before they reached a concerning level. Generally when I do my periodic (typically once per year) WOT check, I'll run at max continuous for a few minutes first, so temps are already stabilized under a good load. Then when I push the throttles forward, I'm primarily watching 3 things at first: temp gauges, tachs, and boat speed. A slight temp increase is normal for my engines, but the temps shouldn't be steadily climbing at WOT. If they are, then something is wrong.
As your example shows, it's all about finding the line of where you can adequately assess condition without abusing the mechanical components more than necessary.
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mvweebles
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I'm getting beyond my technical leash, so forgive me.......
Rslifkin - if I remember, you have gas engines. I suspect some of the trepidation is most of us have far more experience with gas engines than diesel. Redlining a gas engine is a bad thing. But is it possible to 'redline' a properly setup diesel? Does it matter?
Thoughts?
Peter
rslifkin
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It depends on the engine. Some of the high output diesels are pushed pretty hard and I wouldn't be comfortable running them wide open for very long. Much like gas boat engines, they're really sized by continuous power, but with some extra to help shove a boat up onto plane faster, etc.
For some of the more typical trawler engines, they're not pushed as hard (and in some cases are rated for being run pretty hard), so I'd be much more comfortable with 5+ minutes at WOT.
Another factor that would impact comfort would be an EGT gauge. If the engine manufacturer gives any specs for max continuous EGT, max short term EGT, etc. and there's an EGT gauge installed, then you've got a better idea of whether you're abusing it or not.
What RPM the engine turns up to is a factor as well. If the boat seems a little underpropped, there will be less heat at WOT, so generally less concern for running flat out for a few minutes.
On many engines, the concern for durability at WOT isn't the RPM, it's heat for exhaust valves and turbos (if applicable). That's why most gas boat engines run so rich under heavy load compared to their automotive counterparts (and some automotive engines will richen up further if kept at WOT for more than a few seconds). It's an attempt to keep combustion temps down and avoid burning up the exhaust valves.
Even a gas engine can be okay with running flat out if the design accounts for it. Think about how a lot of small outboards get run and how long they still last. I've definitely had our dinghy outboard at WOT for 20 minutes before, but unlike many of our inboards, the manufacturer doesn't tell you not to do that. So presumably the engine was intended to be run that hard at times.
jleonard
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I ran mine at WOT for about 3 minutes when I sold the Albin. The engine temp had stabilized long before that, the tach showed the required 2500 rpm, and I pointed out to the buyer that there was only just a minimum trace of smoke.
This was as we were approaching my "home port" of Mystic at the end of a 6 hour sea trial.
Yes you read that correctly, 6 hour sea trial.
It was our normal commissioning run from the winter storage yard up the CT river, to our slip in Mystic. Fire up the Lehman, run for 5 minutes and inspect for leaks, cast off the lines.
No surveyor aboard. The time gave us the opportunity to use all the boat's equipment and was really no inconvenience for us other than we had company.
We made a simple contract after we tied up in the slip and got a deposit.
Then 3 weeks later the buyer brought a surveyor with the agreement that the boat would stay in the slip since we already did the trial.
The surveyor didn't find anything wrong, and we completed the deal.
Maybe we were lucky.
sunchaser
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Many diesel powered trawlers are intentionally over propped. Nigel Calder et al can wax eloquent on the pros and cons of this sort of setup. That said, a vessel propped this way is a thorn in the side of many mechanical inspections during a Seatrial.
A savvy buyer and open seller can sort out the RPM parameters prior to a Seatrial. On more complicated vessels the owner or Captain must be onboard to insure operating systems are not compromised by a fumbling surveyor or mechanic. When we did a WOT test on our vessel the Coast Guard saw a big wake in a congested waterway and pulled us over. Fines resulted.
So there is lots to consider beyond a box checking exercise.
A savvy buyer and open seller can sort out the RPM parameters prior to a Seatrial. On more complicated vessels the owner or Captain must be onboard to insure operating systems are not compromised by a fumbling surveyor or mechanic. When we did a WOT test on our vessel the Coast Guard saw a big wake in a congested waterway and pulled us over. Fines resulted.
So there is lots to consider beyond a box checking exercise.
I guess if you didn't want to demonstrate WOT out of fear for the engine, you also wouldn't want to demonstrate the genset fully loaded either, or a battery CCA check, or battery capacity check, or a few other things out of the same fears.
Banging the corners of the operating envelope can be little hard on things, but otherwise you are guessing. Not really a problem if the boat is advertised that way ("150 hp rated diesel produces only 120 hp").
Banging the corners of the operating envelope can be little hard on things, but otherwise you are guessing. Not really a problem if the boat is advertised that way ("150 hp rated diesel produces only 120 hp").
ksanders
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That is such Bull $#!T. I don't care how many books Steve D or anybody else writes , if I don't want to put my boat under excessive load , I'm not doing it for ANYBODY. I don't ever run any of my boats wide open except for very short bursts once or twice a year to make sure the RPM's are obtained. I've never sold or bought any of my boats and run them wide open on a sea trial , except again, for a very few seconds. If the boat engine cooling system maintains the temperature in the normal zone for hundreds of hours each season, it's in good condition. If the engine runs for hundreds of hours each season without issues, it's in good condition. I'm not going to take the damn boat out in 8' seas just to see if it will hold together. Sure, it should, but IT'S NOT GOOD FOR IT! Just like running an older engine wide open. Of course the chance of something breaking increases when you subject it to undue strain!
You don't go buy a classic used car , jump in it for a test drive and start cutting donuts in the damn thing do you? No. You take care of stuff and don't abuse them. That way they last.
Let me make this clear right now. When we market our boat, I'll be happy to go for a seatrial, operating the boat as I do every time we take a trip. The cruise RPM's are 1650, sometimes 1800 for a short while and I'll even peg the throttle for a few seconds to show that it'll turn 24-2500. If the prospective buyer or surveyor thinks I'm going to do something I don't normally do & run it wide open for 10 minutes, they're mistaken. If they buy the boat, they and their surveyor are free to run it at max throttle all the way home.
Based on this comment... You have maybe never been on board when a Cummins Factory technician performs a mechanical inspection on a engine.
The technician, while they have their equipment attached to the engine request several throttle settings. One being idle, one being full throttle, and one being at the maximum load point, generally when the boat is just pushing hard on the bow wave.
They will measure the blow by, and the engine temperature, to verify that the engine performs to factory specifications.
i have seen this twice, with technicians directly employed by Cummins Northwest onboard.
twistedtree
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That is such Bull $#!T. I don't care how many books Steve D or anybody else writes , if I don't want to put my boat under excessive load , I'm not doing it for ANYBODY. I don't ever run any of my boats wide open except for very short bursts once or twice a year to make sure the RPM's are obtained. I've never sold or bought any of my boats and run them wide open on a sea trial , except again, for a very few seconds. If the boat engine cooling system maintains the temperature in the normal zone for hundreds of hours each season, it's in good condition. If the engine runs for hundreds of hours each season without issues, it's in good condition. I'm not going to take the damn boat out in 8' seas just to see if it will hold together. Sure, it should, but IT'S NOT GOOD FOR IT! Just like running an older engine wide open. Of course the chance of something breaking increases when you subject it to undue strain!
You don't go buy a classic used car , jump in it for a test drive and start cutting donuts in the damn thing do you? No. You take care of stuff and don't abuse them. That way they last.
Let me make this clear right now. When we market our boat, I'll be happy to go for a seatrial, operating the boat as I do every time we take a trip. The cruise RPM's are 1650, sometimes 1800 for a short while and I'll even peg the throttle for a few seconds to show that it'll turn 24-2500. If the prospective buyer or surveyor thinks I'm going to do something I don't normally do & run it wide open for 10 minutes, they're mistaken. If they buy the boat, they and their surveyor are free to run it at max throttle all the way home.
I get your point and it's of course your call on how your boat is operated. But I agree with Weebles that verifying that a boat works correctly across it's designed operating range is important, and your boat would not pass a sea trial for many people, including me.
I also think the car comparison isn't really valid. A car isn't designed to cut donuts or operate at full power for any more than seconds. Boats aren't designed to cut donuts either, but they ARE designed to operate a full power for some length of time. I think an hour is the very lowest I have ever seen, and 4-8hrs is more typical. Others are continuous duty and designed and expected to operate at 100% power all day long. If a boat can't run at WOT for 15-30 minutes, there is a problem.
I know of quite a few boat that have inadequate cooling. They are fine at typical cruise power, but at WOT the temp climbs and some will eventually overheat. I want to know if a boat I'm buying has an adequate cooling system, or if it is otherwise going to come unglued at full power.
twistedtree
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I think ANY reputable mechanical sea trial will insist on running at WOT for at least 15 minutes. Engine manufacturers REQUIRE it as part of certifying a build as a condition for warranty coverage.
....I wonder if the factory technician does so for thirty or forty year old Lehman or Perkins or Volvo or gasoline engines....
The WOT test for the average old boat is, at its most basic, a prop sizing check. If the boat is nicely underpropped everything will look great. The average surveyor or mechanic won't have a clue as to the engine's power output or the actual condition of the cooling system. Likewise, if the boat is overpropped, there will be all sorts of handwringing about the nasty condition of the smoking, overheating powerplants. Without detailed engine data, hull/prop data, and test instrumentation, it's all inexact, and possibly a misleading or damaging exercise. At a minimum, a seller should run a prop size calculation on one of the on-line calculators. And even then it will be an approximation.
If a seller wants to pass the WOT exercise with flying colors, slap on skinny prop(s). But better that the owner give the buyer the benefit of their past experience. If the buyer has half a brain, they will get the flick.
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twistedtree
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I think with regard to surveyors, how you got their name, and what reputation they have.... also buyers broker recommendations and comments... All information one receives needs to be "calibrated". Who is it coming from, what are their credentials, what motivations might they have that will sway their recommendations, etc. Based on that you decide how to weigh the information.
Brokers will be slanted towards closing the deal. Problems will be down-played and replaced by happy thoughts.
Surveyors will have very different knowledge levels, and different levels of attention to detail. Watching them do their work, and discussing findings and issues during the process is the best way to assess their capabilities, so any surveyor who doesn't want the buyer around would be an immediate rejection for me. Their relationship with the broker(s) and seller would also be a key consideration.
If a seller won't allow certain inspections or tests as some have expressed in this thread, then the buyer will have to judge that. Is the seller hiding something? Or are they just afraid? Regardless, it's a red flag.
Another thing to watch out for is a selling party (seller and broker) who plead ignorance and won't give definitive answers to questions. If a boat is a POS, a good way to sell it is to plead ignorance of anything and everything and leave it to the buyer to find any issues. So stories like "the boat was the husbands dream, but he died and now his widow is selling. The husband knew all about the boat and babied it, but the widow doesn't know anything and can't find any records." Red flag. Not necessarily a rejections, but a clear indication that there are hidden turds and it will be your job to find them, and to assume there will be plenty more that you won't find until later.
As for leaving the boat hauled after a survey, I'd look at it a bit differently. Things go sideways in deals all the time. Even if the surveyor gives you a thumbs up at survey time, you will still have oil sample reports, title and ownership verification, load lien releases, and all sorts of possible things that could screw the deal, including a buyer or seller who just gets squirrelly at the last minute. If you leave a boat hauled, who's responsible for the bill, and will you be able to collect from them when things go south. As a buyer, I don't want any obligations around the boat until I own it, other than the transactional costs of survey and inspections. And as a Seller, I want the buyer to return the boat to its slip after they survey it, not leave it on the hard collecting yard fees that I'll be stuck with if the buyer bails out. Maybe circumstances would override that, but it would be my starting position.
Brokers will be slanted towards closing the deal. Problems will be down-played and replaced by happy thoughts.
Surveyors will have very different knowledge levels, and different levels of attention to detail. Watching them do their work, and discussing findings and issues during the process is the best way to assess their capabilities, so any surveyor who doesn't want the buyer around would be an immediate rejection for me. Their relationship with the broker(s) and seller would also be a key consideration.
If a seller won't allow certain inspections or tests as some have expressed in this thread, then the buyer will have to judge that. Is the seller hiding something? Or are they just afraid? Regardless, it's a red flag.
Another thing to watch out for is a selling party (seller and broker) who plead ignorance and won't give definitive answers to questions. If a boat is a POS, a good way to sell it is to plead ignorance of anything and everything and leave it to the buyer to find any issues. So stories like "the boat was the husbands dream, but he died and now his widow is selling. The husband knew all about the boat and babied it, but the widow doesn't know anything and can't find any records." Red flag. Not necessarily a rejections, but a clear indication that there are hidden turds and it will be your job to find them, and to assume there will be plenty more that you won't find until later.
As for leaving the boat hauled after a survey, I'd look at it a bit differently. Things go sideways in deals all the time. Even if the surveyor gives you a thumbs up at survey time, you will still have oil sample reports, title and ownership verification, load lien releases, and all sorts of possible things that could screw the deal, including a buyer or seller who just gets squirrelly at the last minute. If you leave a boat hauled, who's responsible for the bill, and will you be able to collect from them when things go south. As a buyer, I don't want any obligations around the boat until I own it, other than the transactional costs of survey and inspections. And as a Seller, I want the buyer to return the boat to its slip after they survey it, not leave it on the hard collecting yard fees that I'll be stuck with if the buyer bails out. Maybe circumstances would override that, but it would be my starting position.
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mvweebles
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I'm pretty sure there is no 'senior discount' for old engines. They are held to the same standard as their younger counterparts. If the engine is healthy and well maintained, it will produce it's required WOT RPM per factory specs.
Underloading the engine would show-up too. As KSanders stated, a full test includes no-load WOT. Typically WOT under load is 100-150 rpm under no-load WOT. If there is no delta, the boat is over-propped.
I have to say, I'm a bit surprised at how this has developed. This forum loves to talk about how these old engines will last forever. For some, sounds like that's only true if you baby them.
Interesting thread.
Peter
IMO a 'babied' marine diesel is not a desirable feature either for a buyer or owner.
At minimum it is a false sense of security that they are somehow less worn out.
10 minutes at WOT is nothing for a trawler engine regardless of age. As an owner,
I would want to know that my engine(s) can operate at full output for as long as
their rating indicates that they should. If you actually use the boat there may well
come a time when full power is called for and that isn't the time to get the bad news.
At minimum it is a false sense of security that they are somehow less worn out.
10 minutes at WOT is nothing for a trawler engine regardless of age. As an owner,
I would want to know that my engine(s) can operate at full output for as long as
their rating indicates that they should. If you actually use the boat there may well
come a time when full power is called for and that isn't the time to get the bad news.
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ksanders
Moderator Emeritus
I do not agree.
If the engine cannot produce full rated power without overheating then there is a problem that every buyer has the right to know.
As to the engine being intentionally underpropped to hide a problem, well, I suppose that could happen, but it would be fairly easy to spot, being that the boat would underperform with regards to speed through the water Vs RPM.
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My thoughts are that full throttle tests for maybe 3 minutes are just fine for our higher output 4 stroke turbo diesels.
A tach check is also required.
If they are going to overheat or show problems 3 minutes is plenty and if you have pyros and boost gages all the better.
I would also have no problems with a buyer 'testing' the boat at a high cruise speed at like 15-17 knots at maybe 400 off the top for long lengths of time.
Not at all a fan of full throttle for 15 minutes for no reason at all.
"I have to say, I'm a bit surprised at how this has developed. This forum loves to talk about how these old engines will last forever. For some, sounds like that's only true if you baby them."
I do not think everyone is referring to 'these old engines' as being the same.
I didn't say the engine shouldn't be able to produce full rated power. My point is that if the boat is not propped exactly right, the engine may be artificially limited from reaching rated rpm. That's when the hand wringing begins, and engines get blamed for a propping issue. Unless the buyer/surveyor has a data base for a given boat/engine combination, it's a crap shoot as to what's going on. And good luck getting your hands on boat/hull data for these older boats.
Regarding the underpropping scenario, how does a surveyor know the "correct" boat speed versus rpm? That isn't typically publish information for older boats as far as I know. Neither is comprehensive engine certification data.
A side question...let's say a full displacement hull has a greatly oversized engine and is able to reach hull speed using less than half the rated engine power. Does the surveyor protocol demand that the boat must keep digging a deeper and deeper hole in the water in order to test for rated power?
Another hypothetical...suppose an owner purposely overprops his boat to achieve efficiency gains at low and mid-range speeds...top speed is not of interest. The owner sets a new red line to protect the engine at that rpm. An exhaust gas temperature reading and engine certification charts are used to arrive at the new limit RPM. The engine can be shown to accelerate easily from that new limit speed (no smoke...no hesitation or laboring). Should the boat be rejected? Why? (Airplane engines and drive trains are derated with red lines all the time).
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jleonard
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When I repowered my old Mainship with a new Cummins 6BTA, I had just run the for the first time, just for several minutes to get the coolant right, check for leaks, etc. The Cummins regional sales guy, who used to be a tech, stopped by the boat to see how I was doing.
He says "let's start this up and see how it sounds". So I fired it up, then he gets down into the engine space and runs the engine balls to the wall to see how the high idle was set.
Engine had maybe 5 minutes run time on it and it was already run up to max no load.
Then a few weeks later the actual Cummins tech came to do a checkout and we did WOT under load for several minutes to not only check rpm, (which was on the money) but also to do an engine room temperature check.
When I had a new high performance V8 engine built I paid extra to have it run in
on the builder's dyno. They also fast idled it just long enough to warm it up and
adjust the jetting and timing. Then it was straight to full load redline, in this case
about 6200 rpm and, ultimately 425 HP. That is what it was made to do. Still does.
on the builder's dyno. They also fast idled it just long enough to warm it up and
adjust the jetting and timing. Then it was straight to full load redline, in this case
about 6200 rpm and, ultimately 425 HP. That is what it was made to do. Still does.
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twistedtree
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I don't see it as a problem, but it is informative. I think a buyer should know if the engine can make rated RPM since that's how all engine manufacturers require their engines be operated. If it is under propped or over propped, that's good info for the buyer. It doesn't mean they will reject the boat. It's just information to be processed and considered. On the other hand, if the seller won't allow the test, I would have to assume the worst - inadequate cooling, a grossly miss-propped boat (either over or under), severe vibration, excessive EGT, failing turbo, etc. I would assume all are bad and account for them accordingly. I would also now assume the seller is hiding other things.
They don't know, and don't need to know. It's all about whether the engine makes rated RPM vs being above or below (and by how much), and what the accompanying EGT and turbo boost (if applicable) are.
This will (should) be discovered in the survey, and the buyer can make an informed decision about proceeding with the boat purchase. As we know from threads on this subject, some owners want a larger engine run lightly (de-rated) where others want a smaller engine run at high load.
Again, the buyer should know this, and it will be revealed in a good survey. And the seller will have the opportunity to explain why they elected to do that. Buyer can then decide whether to agree and carry on with the boat as is, or plan to re-prop. Either way it will be an informed decision.
To me the real issue is a seller who refuses to allow testing that is typical and normal for engine (and boat) evaluation. It would be no different if an owner refused to allow the hull to be tapped out with a hammer to check for soft spots because of fear for gel coat damage. As a buyer, I would have to assume the seller is trying to hide a hull that has soft spots. If someone won't allow me to verify that something is good, then I have to assume they are hiding something that is bad.
SteveK
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Over propping these diesels back in the day was normal (around here). It loaded an otherwise 'babied' engine. In my research other GB36 were being run at 1800 to get 8knots, my GB gets 8 @ 1650. At cruise, temps run about 185, within spec.
The GB came to me with over prop which I noticed quickly but the engine purred at the 7-8 knot speed just less than hull speed. Getting to full wot rpm is harder when over propped, but I did get it to 13 knots and temp did climb to about 195.
So each to their own instincts on what is best for your engine. I run full throttle at least once per year.
The GB came to me with over prop which I noticed quickly but the engine purred at the 7-8 knot speed just less than hull speed. Getting to full wot rpm is harder when over propped, but I did get it to 13 knots and temp did climb to about 195.
So each to their own instincts on what is best for your engine. I run full throttle at least once per year.
Gdavid
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With regard to the WOT testing of engines, I think it is a matter of us trying to label everything in a binary fashion, pass-fail, exists/does not exist fashion. Anyone who has ever cleaned out a heat exchanger or replaced a exhaust manifold realizes that things are not so black and white. It is fair for the buyer to need to know the actual can condition but there should also be some realization that firewalling testing an engine carries a risk and the owner shoulders the responsibility for any damage.
A catastrophic engine failure on many older and lower valued boats could easily lead to a repair/replacement bill exceeding the vessels value. There should be understanding on both sides and any buyer who demands like new performance and reliability should be in the market for a new vessel.
That said, I am continuously striving to maintain my old boat to a survey ready condition at any time. Not only for my families' safety but if anything happens to me and my wife needs the boat sold fast, I want the old engine bullet proof so some careless broker or captain can't ruin the old girl in 5 minute's time. By the time most boats are advertised, they are not getting used regularly and maintenance may be reduced as well. This should be accounted for in pricing but not run to failure by parties who have no skin in the game.
A catastrophic engine failure on many older and lower valued boats could easily lead to a repair/replacement bill exceeding the vessels value. There should be understanding on both sides and any buyer who demands like new performance and reliability should be in the market for a new vessel.
That said, I am continuously striving to maintain my old boat to a survey ready condition at any time. Not only for my families' safety but if anything happens to me and my wife needs the boat sold fast, I want the old engine bullet proof so some careless broker or captain can't ruin the old girl in 5 minute's time. By the time most boats are advertised, they are not getting used regularly and maintenance may be reduced as well. This should be accounted for in pricing but not run to failure by parties who have no skin in the game.
twistedtree
Guru
I don't think it's seeking like-new condition. And if an engine suffers catastrophic damage when run at WOT, I sure would be glad I ran the test and didn't buy the boat. And as a boat owner, I want to be confident my boat can operate at WOT without issues, 'cause I'm depending on it. Doesn't matter if I'm selling it or not. I want to know it's solid.
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mvweebles
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- United States
- Vessel Name
- Weebles
- Vessel Make
- 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Pretty sure there is no way in hell an otherwise healthy engine will experience a catastrophic failure such as throwing a rod or breaking a shaft due to WOT. If it does, it was on its last legs anyway and probably good to know now rather than later. As you suggest, most likely is temperature climbs and the test is shut-down. No harm just aborted.
I agree that its not reasonable for a used-boat buyer to expect new. But I also don't think its reasonable for a seller to not demonstrate the engine is 'fit-for-purpose.' WOT is not an arbitrary test - it's been used by OEMs for decades as a benchmark to see if the engine is within spec.
As TT said pretty eloquently, it's certainly within the buyers prerogative to refuse to do a meaningful WOT test. But the optics are really bad. For those on the sell side, you may want to do a little research and see if you can get comfortable with a WOT test. Otherwise, you may narrow your buyer pool.
Good conversation -
Peter
This discussion is interesting and I understand both sides....
My boat I decide on limitations for sea trial
Buyer considers WOT a key data point even for a short time
The question that comes to mind is where does the responsibility to divulge exceptions lie?
Is/ Isnt WOT an " accepted" expectation of a sea trial and onus is on seller to divulge an unwillingness to run at WOT ahead of any investment in survey, etc by buyer
Is WOT not accepted as normal practice and buyers respondibility to include it as a condition with any written purchase agreement!
What say the brokers and surveyors advising buyers???
My boat I decide on limitations for sea trial
Buyer considers WOT a key data point even for a short time
The question that comes to mind is where does the responsibility to divulge exceptions lie?
Is/ Isnt WOT an " accepted" expectation of a sea trial and onus is on seller to divulge an unwillingness to run at WOT ahead of any investment in survey, etc by buyer
Is WOT not accepted as normal practice and buyers respondibility to include it as a condition with any written purchase agreement!
What say the brokers and surveyors advising buyers???
