84 months of costs to live/use the boat

[Don L]

So I will be getting out of boating and going to dirt soon. Part of that is understanding how much I can spend on dirt living so I am comparing it to boat living. I am on month 89, but am going to use the first 7 full years as a basis. I figure I know how we lived during that 7 years and if we spend the same amount on our dirt dwelling we basically live the same.

So for 7 years the cost of boat maintenance, repair, upgrades plus fuel, marina, electric, registration, and insurance works out to an average of:

$1399.62/mo

If I factor in the purchase cost of the boat less the agreed value I expect the insurance is going to payout it becomes:

$2054.38/mo

BTW this is for a 41' sailboat. I have done the estimate in past a estimate that for a trawler getting 2mpg the cost is $1500-2000/yr more

Thought maybe those currently living on land and thinking of switching to boat living might find it of use.

 

[CharlieO.]

How much traveling did you do in those 7 years?
Our monthly housing costs are probably around $2000.
We are currently working on a plan to sell all and get onboard.

 

[Greg QS]

At $5 gal that only 400 gal a year. or 800 nm.

I'm a trawler, I have used in the last 2 years 6400 gal ( if I have all my fuel fills logged in) and I am only a weekend warrior right now. LOL

Average fuel cost of 5.94 gal. Some where around 6300 nm if my gps totalizer is correct. That is a gal an hour but includes genset running 24/7 when out and first seasons diesel heat. All rolled into 1. This seasons heat burn not in yet. I filled before storage, curious what I will burn for the heat. I will fill in the spring to find out.

That averages 1000 month in fuel alone Insurance , dockage summer , winter, eclectic and general costs. 19500 month . Nothing in for upgrades, or other than usual yearly service and commissioning. Pushing 3,000 month hard costs. This does not include an monthly Mortgage payment that most have . No costs in either for dingy use and service costs. I have not tracked that yet.

 

[Don L]

At $5 gal that only 400 gal a year. or 800 nm.

But that doesn't equal the cost difference. My sailboat still used fuel and had costs to buy and maintain sails and related items. For the cost of a mainsail I could gotten enough fuel to motor 9,000 miles

I of course didn't run a generator 24/7 when at anchor.

 

[Don L]

How much traveling did you do in those 7 years?
.

I estimate around 12000-15000 nm.

 

[mvweebles]

I just pulled a coarse run of my expenses since leaving Ensenada October 30th. Around $6500/mo all-in. There are a lot of 1-time expenses just to get underway that should diminish over time. If I had to guess, will be in the $5k-$5.5k/mo run-rate at steady state cruising full-time. This includes some land-based costs such as taxes and insurance (including health insurance). Also includes a relatively expensive flight back to Florida around the holidays, and about 1.5 mos in marinas. We've done 1400nms over that period, burned about 300g-325g of diesel at average cost of around $5.35/gal. Close to $1600; or around 6% of my expenses.

Thanks Don - your numbers have been both inspirational and helpful.

Peter

 

[Jeff F]

Thanks Don. For me that's a more clear cut set of numbers. I've got a $2k/mo boat budget using a similar metric. I think it's realistic.

I'd point out that this doesn't include the cost of having 6 figures tied up in the boat. That adds another $500/mo. But who's counting ?

 

[STB]

My monthly slip rent is more than your total monthly cost of ownership :-(

For the curious, my monthly slip rent increased about 50% when the large marina it was at temporarily closed, requiring a move to another marina with a lot of competition for lower cost spots.

Then, it went up another 50% (hopefully temporarily) when the privately managed marina it is now at realized that market demand was in their favor.

 

[PierreR]

I will be right there with Peter at $5,000 to $6,500 per month The boat is probably about $2,100 of that.

Add another $1,400 a month for the land home.

My fuel costs last year averaged $3.37 per gallon diesel. $4,700

This year, winter storage is $5,400 and summer dockage will be $4,775, Insurance $800. Plus $40,000 in upgrades.
We will probably only put 2,000 miles on the boat this year

Cost per mile for this year is only $26 and 500 hours of work.

 

[mvweebles]

I just pulled a coarse run of my expenses since leaving Ensenada October 30th. Around $6500/mo all-in. There are a lot of 1-time expenses just to get underway that should diminish over time. If I had to guess, will be in the $5k-$5.5k/mo run-rate at steady state cruising full-time. This includes some land-based costs such as taxes and insurance (including health insurance). Also includes a relatively expensive flight back to Florida around the holidays, and about 1.5 mos in marinas. We've done 1400nms over that period, burned about 300g-325g of diesel at average cost of around $5.35/gal. Close to $1600; or around 6% of my expenses.

Thanks Don - your numbers have been both inspirational and helpful.

Peter

BTW - we have no debt even on our very modest house so while we have land based expenses, costs are very low and are included in the above.

 

[Hippocampus]

Our numbers are a bit different than Don’s but reflect a different program.
We built a new boat (Outbound 46’) and lived nearly full time while commuting from New England (summers) and Windwards (winters and some of spring/fall) for a decade. While out of this country boat was only in a slip when we flew home for Xmas break. So minimal slip fees. Also being new nearly no service expenses. Being in the non developed area of the Caribbean food/drink costs very low. Being able to fuel with Venezuelan fuel in Granada and elsewhere for much of those ten years that cost low given a sailboat. Our average costs while in the Caribbean on the order of $1k/m. But $2 1/2k while in New England. We lost $50k on the boat (purchase price minus sale price and broker fee).
My current costs for the NT are ridiculous but this reflects a restoration. New boat deck, engine overhaul, rebedding doors and some port lights with replacement of balsa with closed cell coring. New electronics and various incidentals. Also to maintain a home port long term contracts in Hilton Head for winters and East Greenwich R.I. For summers. Although miles traveled are significantly less than when we had the sailboat they still include R.I. To S.C. and numerous side trips. Unlike the sailboat mostly travel daytime and much more use of marinas in spite of our much preferring to be at anchor. Have found whereas in the Caribbean anchoring is easy to plan for slips are unavoidable on US east coast at times. Keep our books on Boating Suite so to some extent can subtract our restoration costs. Doing so would estimate a monthly of $3 1/2 k/m. over the last 2 yrs. We have no mortgage on the boat but it was bought during Covid. Friend who is a broker says we can sell it for what we paid but will not get a penny of our restoration costs back so a ~$70k loss. Of course as we hold on to it it will depreciate further.
Have come to think annual costs for sail v power are about the same. Think the major determinants have little to do with that. Rather issues are where the boat is (most important ) how much you travel, size, quality of life you will accept. Anchoring a 65’ boat costs the same as a 36’ boat but slip fees, hauling and storage are vastly different. Leaving a boat in the hurricane zone during season has way more impact than ten feet of loa. Cooking v going out. Doing your own maintenance to the extent possible v yard bills. Your deductible. Your choice of storage yard. Personally don’t need a pool, tennis courts, restaurants, concierge services etc. Just want good slips, travel lift, clean water and good shore power.
Don has done us all a service but just realize he reported his costs.”your mileage may vary”.

 

[dannc]

...
We built a new boat (Outbound 46’) and lived nearly full time while commuting from New England (summers) and Windwards (winters and some of spring/fall) for a decade. While out of this country boat was only in a slip when we flew home for Xmas break. So minimal slip fees. Also being new nearly no service expenses. Being in the non developed area of the Caribbean food/drink costs very low. Being able to fuel with Venezuelan fuel in Granada and elsewhere for much of those ten years that cost low given a sailboat. Our average costs while in the Caribbean on the order of $1k/m. But $2 1/2k while in New England. We lost $50k on the boat (purchase price minus sale price and broker fee)...

Grabbing what Hippocampus said to bring up a point.

The budget conversations talk about, well, budget, aka expenses. :lol: As they should. However, what is seldom mentioned is WHAT one bought with the money.

In Hippocampus's case, it sounds like the living expenses, which you have no matter if one is on a boat or not, were pretty low. The big cost of cruising was the depreciation of the boat. So it cost them $5,000 a year for a decade to go sailing. Did that $5,000 buy worthwhile living/experiences for the year? Was it worth the cost? Me think the answer is yes.

We are concerned with a budget, don't know how one could not be thinking about a budget, but after figuring out IF one has the money to buy the boat and go, the next question is will the expense be worth it?

Part of the problem with that question is that it is a roll of the dice. If one goes out and quickly has health problems, or looses the boat, one can loose quite a bit of money. That is the risk.

Flip side of this money conversation is if one wants to travel and see the world, housing is expensive in the places we wish to see. Given one needs short term housing due to Visa issues, AirBnB type services would have to be used but this is NOT cheap and cities are starting to restrict AirBnB type housing so this cost is going to increase and be more difficult to get in some cities. Furthermore, trying to live out of a couple of suitcases and having to find a place to live every to 3-6 months does not sound like fun to me. With a boat, the where to stay problem is much easier.

Having a boat might be cost money but the alternatives can cost more.

Later,
Dan

 

[Pete Meisinger]

In my experience it cost about the same to live on dirt as on a boat, even considering fuel for the boat.

The only high;y variable number is restaurant meals vs home cooked. If you will maintain the same standard of eating your cost will be very similar.

pete

 

[Don L]

In my experience it cost about the same to live on dirt as on a boat, even considering fuel for the boat.

The only high;y variable number is restaurant meals vs home cooked. If you will maintain the same standard of eating your cost will be very similar.

pete

Which is really my point of the thread. If I spend the same on mortgage/insurance/utilities as what I spent on my boat the last 7 years I will spend pretty much have the same on everything else and in the end my total monthly costs will be about the same.

Now the number I gave in post #1 is an average of 84 months. I have had periods of 6 months with no marina costs other than a couple days on a mooring. I am in a cheap no thrills marina that went up 30% couple months ago, but is still $549/mo including all the electricity and water I want.

I have been semi-planning for this for years and know I can find an acceptable house here in Jacksonville Fl under $200k that will be under my budget.

 

[READY]

The primary takeaway for me for this thread is that costs will vary widely. Not only based upon boat selection and location but massively influenced by operational choices such as marina usage, miles traveled, lifestyle choices.

Therein lies the trap for some prospective new boaters/cruisers that might be using some of these "budget" for their planning. They likely don't/cannot really know some of these items. Example: they think they will anchor out most of the time. Visit San Diego and you will find anchorages are very regulated and not particularly comfortable.
It is still good to share this kind of budget info and one can only hope the new boaters will not anchor on the low end thinking they can achieve that.

I have enjoyed the YouTube channel called "In Too Deep". Very realistic view of what it takes to acquire and refit an older boat. He does not talk too much about actual cost but you can see that despite some very significant sweat labor he is pumping a lot of cash into the boat. He is an incredibly industrious young man who has a passion and drive that is not so common.

 

[cafesport]

Interesting Don, it made me do a quick comparison myself. I’ve always used percentages and square ft to compare costs between land and water dwelling 5 and 10 percent respectively.


Ten years down the road the dirt home should give you a return on capital and the boat perhaps a partial return of capital. Quality and enjoyment of life does have a cost.

 

[Larry M]

We spent 10 years living and cruised on a 43’ sailboat with 90% of the time outside the US. Our average/year was $30k. That included Lena flying home 1/year and myself every other year. Boat and health insurance was $8/year. We replaced sails, standing rigging, decks, engine rebuild, plus some.

We then spent 13 years living and cruising on our Krogen 42 with about 50% of the time outside the US. Our average/year was $50k. Similar travel schedule. Boat and health insuance were more as was the maintenance and parts for the Krogen.

In both cases marinas were a seasonal requirement because of hurricanes and locations although we typically went 6 months without going into a marina and 1 year we went 11 months.

YMMV.

 

[cafesport]

So Larry in percentage terms what was the final number?

 

[Hippocampus]

No surprise costs outside US were lower. Don’s experience is the same as mine lifestyle (anchoring or marina, restaurant or home cooked etc.) is a major determinant.

Also noteworthy is what’s not mentioned. They call it a boat kitty. For us (and many) the money you put into a boat is money you don’t put into an investment. Between no ROI and inflation loses related to a boat are even higher than the simple arithmetic.
We were fortunate with the Outbound. It’s a cult boat and the base price during period of ownership went from $525k to $650k. We bought the boat early in the formation of the cult and allowed it to be shown during its first year. Our cost was below market. The same boat now would cost ~$850 outfitted the same.

The NT has already had its major depreciation when we bought it but inflationary losses and loss of ROI still apply. This is unlike our recently building a zero footprint house. They are no longer making land. Waterfront land above the flood plain outside the hurricane zone continues to be desirable. The house has appreciated >10% in inflation adjusted dollars in 4 years of ownership and 3 years of occupancy. Its total costs have been insurance, taxes and landscape maintenance (we do it ourselves but still need to buy materials). We sell enough electricity as to have no utility bill. In fact solar has been an income stream. There is no question if done right with some forethought dirt dwelling is much cheaper. Unless you’re talking large coastal city can’t see boat being cheaper than land. Have friends living full time on a boat in Boston. Yes there boat is cheaper. But they are not cruising. In fact usually fly somewhere when on vaca.

Lastly sooner or later you will swallow the anchor. Before we went cruising wife said “I’ll follow you anywhere but I want to always have a house to come home to.” Thought initially this would be a bad financial decision. Especially I didn’t want to rent our home. Others properties ok but not our home. The house we had during our earlier cruising was a financial drag. It also was a periodic chore for our kids given it sat unoccupied for long periods. It was enjoyed by grandkids/kids at times but basically an unproductive expense. However was available for the periods we came home (summers and Xmas break etc.) so no hotel costs or staying with the kids. The first house while cruising in inflation adjusted dollars made money to defray the cost of our current house. That earlier house sold for ~30% higher than purchase.

The current house makes more sellable electricity when not occupied and is fully monitored and kept functional in our absence. If we didn’t keep a house during our cruising costs of starting afresh would have been very much higher.

 

[PierreR]

LarryM, You have one period of time at 30k and another at 50k. What does it look like when you adjust for marine inflation.
My parents looped with my previous boat in 2006 and their costs were $1150 per month for everything. Today that would probably be double.

 

[DavidU]

Seems to me I can trade a pretty nice house and all of its associated expenses for a pretty nice boat and all its associated expenses. I was hoping that could be the case. This is encouraging.

 

[READY]

David,
Re comparison of house vs boat

Lots of considerations that come into play.
If you buy a new boat it is similar to a car. Subject to rapid depreciation in the early years.
Generally a home will start to slowly appreciate.


Cost up front depends upon what house, what region and what boat. On average probably the boat may be lower priced. For sure if you are comparing a used 40'-45 ft boat vs most west coast houses.

Operational cost is widely variable as in some of these posts.

So not sure there is any absolute winner with a cost comparison. We love spending time on our boat but would not give up our home base. There will be a point in time where physical limitations come into play. We all hope that is at a very advanced age. But having moved well beyond middle age I have seen many friends who would now be unable to live on board.

So just a precautionary bit of advice to keep this in mind. Probably you have the financial capability to move back ashore if you need to. Others might not .
I see boating as a wonderful activity that I have enjoyed for years. But if I had not purchased a home early on and participated in the real estate market continuously since then (buying and selling ) My wife and I could not afford boating into our retirement years. The equity gains dramatically contributed to our nest egg.

Just hoping anyone reading this thread will keep their options open.

 

[Don L]

you guys make it so complex when it is very simple

Boats don't make financial sense. If that's what you want don't get into boating!

 

[READY]

Well said DonL. A boat is a luxury. But having said that I think there is value sharing cost to others who are considering getting a boat.
Sadly they all cannot be YouTube celebrities who get their lifestyle paid for by patreons. But to be fair the successful channels clearly require a lot of time and effort so not just a walk in the park.

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yeah.

Not going to give up the dirt home for the water home. Dirt home is 20 miles from the dock of the water home. Value of dirt home increases while value of water home diminishes. Dirt home and water home are paid in full. Water home costs $375/mo slip rent. Water home requires much more time and effort and money (haul outs) than dirt home does.

Yeah, boats are a luxury -

 

[DavidU]

My comment was kinda tongue in cheek and very much a generality for sure. For us, we will maintain a dirt home, but considered it good news to see several folks who lived on and utilized their boat for expenses which seem very reasonable (at least for us). I completely agree a boat is a luxury, just as having more than one home is. I simply like the idea of exchanging a house for a boat, and the lifestyle that goes with it, on a potentially equitable plane. I understand homes appreciate and boats generally depreciate, but for me the dollars spent for the experiences and adventures, I anticipate, will be more than worth it. If not, sell the boat and go back to the golf course.

 

[psneeld]

A boat is a luxury when you own a home....

But if all you own is a boat, not sure it is a luxury.

You can own and live on a boat well into advanced age, you just have to adjust your living expenses to allow saving and investing to cover the difference between selling a depreciated boat and a rather massively appreciated dirt dwelling when you call it quits. Or certainly have much less expectations of what you can buy....assuming lifestyle remaining the same.

There are a few key points like will your income stream change (or could it)? will you inherit that difference I discussed? are you willing to go back to some form of work after the cruising experience?... and more I am sure.

Then there's always the health issue hanging around. It alone is responsible for changing many cruising plans.

Having just swallowed the hook after a lifetime of switching between 3 liveaboards and land, I would just say that if one looks ahead and understands all the ins and out of the basic financial rules of life..... it is economically possible to do whatever you want with the exception of making the mistake of not saving way more money along the way on lifestyle than most Americans.

Investing/money management is a lot like boating experience. If you start early in life, it's a lot easier than catch up when your options are usually more limited.

I have no idea how it would work out in other countries.

 

[Don L]

The only real reason to me of maintaining a land house while cruising is that you truly are planning to stay there. I sold my last land house when I started cruising 7+ years ago and put the money in a balanced account and it has made way more than the amount the house would have appreciated, not even counting the cost to maintain the house. Now I have that money and the price of my planned replacement house is less that what I sold the last for.

Sometimes people who learned we didn't have a land house would said "Don't want a place to return to after cruising?" I would respond "No, it turns out there are houses for sale everywhere I go and I can get one when the time comes."

 

[psneeld]

Pretty much what I found to... but there was a little luck with the overall market success (though not way more than historical) and while houses in many areas have doubled in price, so has the market.

Yep... different combination of actions and decisions can work.

I and I know others have made theirs work just fine.

The biggest fear I think people have about selling their house are those who want the same situation they had before when they move back ashore. I think that wanting a very similar house, furnished the same, and in the same location/area....that isn't a realistic part of the plan. For those of us that are willing to move some place new with reasonable housing costs it can work just fine and is similar to the philosophy on living on a retirement income that is lower than when full time working.

 

[rslifkin]

The only real reason to me of maintaining a land house while cruising is that you truly are planning to stay there. I sold my last land house when I started cruising 7+ years ago and put the money in a balanced account and it has made way more than the amount the house would have appreciated, not even counting the cost to maintain the house. Now I have that money and the price of my planned replacement house is less that what I sold the last for.

Sometimes people who learned we didn't have a land house would said "Don't want a place to return to after cruising?" I would respond "No, it turns out there are houses for sale everywhere I go and I can get one when the time comes."

If you're planning to be full time for an extended period and aren't planning to keep a lot of stuff, I agree, keeping a house doesn't make sense. Although some people keep the house and rent it out instead of selling it. And not everyone cruises full time, there may be some time off to go home and see family, etc. in between, where having a house to go back to is nice.

It all depends on what the overall life plan looks like.