Anchor chain selection and Windlass gypsy info

[ranger58sb]

With 1/2" chain? I ask because 100', or even 50' of 1/2" chain plus an anchor hanging off your bow will be very heavy, and any slip of the line could spell disaster.

No, we had 5/16" chain and 5/8" rope -- and a 50-lb SuperMax anchor -- on the previous boat with the Maxwell windlass. All appropriate for the boat, I think.

This one came with 200' of (probably factory) 5/16" chain, and someone had replaced the 60-lb galvanized plow with a 44-lb stainless Delta -- I think inadequate chain size, and at least one step in the wrong direction with the anchor. The Lofrans windlass will also take a 3/8" or a 7/16" gypsy, and for this boat I think 3/8" would be both better than the 5/16" chain and at the same time adequate for this boat and our typical cruising. 7/16" chain would seem huge, and for us would come with the same weight problems you describe with 1/2" chain plus decent anchor.

Danforths are really the only anchors that mount nicely on a foredeck so I'd guess the high "pretty" score drove the decision.

Chris, your boat looks like it might like a lightweight bow), I just wouldn't do it for serious cruising.

We haven't had a boat where a Danforth-style anchor -- of appropriate size/weight -- would mount nicely on our pulpit. (As opposed to the flat mount on deck OP has.) I've seen many boats that work well with those, just haven't had one.

I agree ref our bow weight decisions. The boat actually rests slightly a$$ heavy, so a little addition might make fewer things roll off the galley countertop. But I know it's a fine line between balance at rest and cruising efficiently on plane. WE don't always do that, but when we need to it needs to work right.

-Chris

 

[sndog]

I suggest not Delta. Outdated by better anchors now. See S/V Panope tests. From our own experience, I can say an oversized Delta only worked "OK" here in the Chesapeake mud...

Why three rollers? You already have two, yes?

-Chris

Yes, there are two rollers, each about a 12~18" from the middle of the bow, and are for the fortress anchors.

 

[sndog]

Are there gypsies that will handle both 1/2" chain and line? I have only ever used a combo gypsy with smaller chain (less than 3/8"), and for 1/2" have only seen all-chain gypsies. But I also haven't really looked since I have only had all chain in larger sizes.

My windlass has three gypsy's on it. Two on the side are set up for chain, currently 10mm, I will be upgrading those to handle I think 12mm.

The top of the windlass has a spindle, I think that that is the name, that is used for rope. So it may end up having less than 30' of chain rode, but enough to get it to the windlass, the rest would be rope.

The two fortress anchors will be chain the entire length.

 

[ranger58sb]

Yes, there are two rollers, each about a 12~18" from the middle of the bow, and are for the fortress anchors.

Easy solution: flog one Fortress, use the money to buy a new (non-Danforth-style) anchor suitable for where you will be cruising... whenever the Fortress isn't suitable.

Easy for me to spend your money.

-Chris

 

[sndog]

What is the attraction to using rope at all? I could possibly see backing a long chain rope with rope as Hail Mary protection (as Chris suggests), but I think using anything but chain would be a regret. Chain gypsies are secure whereas rope gypsies are friction. I doubt that much rope will flake properly into the chain locker.

Managing three anchors with three rodes on one bow (even with three rollers) sounds like a mess. Where will the third rode go?

If I were in your shoes, I'd go with a single anchor on the bow, a spare rode in the second chain locker, and a second anchor possibly stowed vs on the roller. The Mantus M2 disassembles and can be fairly easily stowed. On the bow, I'd go with an enormous Vulcan and a barrel of 1/2" G4 chainp. As anchors have improved, need for dual anchors to match bottom type has reduced so I'm not sure I'd bother (except maybe in Chesapeake where I understand mud presents a special case).

I cannot imagine anchoring in the middle of the ocean. You may want to checkout a sea anchor such as thr Burke SeaBrake. Controls drift pretty well and you don't need a windlass with 1000-lb rating to haul.

Do you own this boat, or is this a tabletop exercise?

Peter

EDIT - below is from Dashew's "Practical Seamanship" book. One item not discussed in this thread is scope - frequently, there just isn't swing-room for scope beyond 5:1 or so. Dashew uses crowded anchorages as an example, but from experience, I can tell you that many of the Channel Island anchorages are small and you cannot lay-down more than 5:1-7:1 scope even if you're the only boat there. In the PNW with deep, narrow anchorages, 3:1 is not unheard of which is why the Bruce has remained popular there as it was developed with short-scope in mind (FYI - for short-scope on any anchor, best to set at 5:1 or more, then reduce to 3:1).

If you spend a lot of time in crowded anchorages there are ways to reduce your scope requirements. The most efficient, as we’ve already
mentioned, is to increase anchor size. A bigger anchor gives more holding power, which in turn means you need less scope to keep you in place
for a given load.

Switching from a rope rode to chain will have a similar effect, as will increasing chain size, although this is not as efficient in terms of total weight as just increasing anchor size​

I own the boat. There are currently three chain lockets. One is accessed from the bow and is large, maybe 4' w x 30" front to back, and about 24" deep.

The chain lockers, one for each side of the windlass, goes to down below, through guides in the bow bunk room and to containers under the floor.

I will work up some crappy photoshop work and show you my thoughts on it.

There is no intent on anchoring in the ocean. I did start researching sea anchors and drogues, just in case. Anchoring will be done around islands, or land. Typically in about 30ft of water. But I learned on my last trip, on my previous boat, there are many times you end up in 70~120ft of water.

 

[sndog]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Datenight View Post
Chain is typically sold in barrels and half barrels, etc., with X feet of Y size in each barrel or half barrel. (See Defender's offerings, for example.) Once you home in on chain size, you could buy a barrel or a half barrel...

Rob
Be aware, the barrel will be heavy, so plan ahead. The delivery guy has to bring and unload it, I suggest direct to the marina. Then you have to get it along the marina to the boat, and load it onto the boat. The windlass on the boat can do the latter.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia

Bruce,

I was agreeing with Chris, ranger58sb. Just want to be sure he gets the credit.

Shipping and loading the chain can be an issue/costly. I bought 200 feet of 3/8 G4 for our NP 45. Since I am in Southeastern CT, I drove to Defender to pick it up. They would not load the barrel into my 3/4 ton van, worried about the weight. Brought the barrel out to the vehicle (with a fork truck) and left it at the side of the van. I had to hand it onboard.

I did this carefully with the hope I would be able to get the boat to a bulkhead and park the van close by. The plan worked and I was able to use the windlass to load the chain aboard.

Rob

My previous boat we had to load in about 250' of 3/8 or 1/2", I do not recall, and did it while it was on the hard. Brought the pallet over with a fork lift, lifted the chain into the roller, then the windlass, and then attached into the chain locker, and let the windlass do the hard work. Had someone down below helping guide the chain to make sure it would not get tangled, and would not hit the freshly painted boat.

 

[sndog]

Make sure you find out what the max pull weight for your windlass is rated for. We run 300' of 1/2" chain and a Vulcan 55 as our primary anchor on a 66,000 lb boat and are limited to 300' due to a 1000lb max pull weight of our windlass. In practice you'd never be pulling all 1000# straight up but I like to size for worst case scenarios.

That is actually really good info. Never thought of that at all!

 

[sndog]

Here is a better photo for discussion purposes.

There has been some great points and discussions so far, so thank you.

 

[rslifkin]

I'd swap the rodes in your scenario. Put the mixed rode on the Fortress, the all chain setup on the other anchor (as the other should be the primary with the Fortress second in line).

 

[guy with a boat]

FWIW, our boat is 68' OA, 18' beam, 75 tons. We run 400' of 1/2" chain rode.


The Nordhavn engineers originally sized the chain and our experience indicates that it is a good choice for us.

 

[mvweebles]

Here is a better photo for discussion purposes.

There has been some great points and discussions so far, so thank you.

Is the angle of the photo, or do anchor roller brackets toe-out at a 30+ degree angle? Does the rode run fair to the roller? Usually, there is a bit of a pulpit on the bow to get the anchor forward clear of the stem.

I'm guessing the forward access locker is not usable unless the rode(s) are removed - rode would run right over the door. Regardless, if access is acceptable, you may want to consider using this locker to store docklines and/or fenders instead of a third rode.

The drum winch atop the windlass is a general purpose wildcat for hauling or snubbing lines when needed.

Interesting.....

Peter

 

[Simi 60]

FWIW, our boat is 68' OA, 18' beam, 75 tons. We run 400' of 1/2" chain rode.


The Nordhavn engineers originally sized the chain and our experience indicates that it is a good choice for us.

it is certainly adequate but.....
Ours is 60ft and 71 short ton running 300+ft of 13mm or 1/2inch chain
We have deformed chain on two occasions.
I am frankly surprised at Nordy, who generally go a bit over the top on a lot of stuff to have gone what I consider borderline on such a crucial thing.

If I could choose windlass, chain and chainwheel again I would go 16mm 5/8th

Our current windlass, a Maxwell 3500hwc has a 3500 lb pull
Plenty of grunt, but doesn't take a 16mm chainwheel.
I could get one cast and may investigate that further when we start to run out of chain again.

 

[sndog]

I'd swap the rodes in your scenario. Put the mixed rode on the Fortress, the all chain setup on the other anchor (as the other should be the primary with the Fortress second in line).

That is a great idea as well!

 

[Nepidae]

Anchor & Chain rode

First, rode is the combination of chain and line made for anchoring.

Second, I would check to make sure that moving up to 1/2" chain will fit in the gypsy of the windlass. It might be expensive to find a replacement gypsy that will fit your windlass to handle the new chain.

Third, where are YOU going to anchor the most? Plait line can be spliced with chain (with the right marlinspike seamanship) so you can have less chain. I have about 150' of chain (and 250' of 8 plait) but anchor in less than 20" of water most of the time, so more chain would be worthless, and plait will store in your anchor locker better.

Just some thoughts to consider.

Good luck with your project.

 

[Mobcat]

Anchoring with a 1000 ft of Nylon wtf !!!!!

 

[La Sirena]

For what it's worth, I have a 100,000 lb boat (dry) and it has 7/16" G4 chain, 300 ft per side. Call the windlass manufacturer and see if it can handle what you want. Also, I'd use the Fortresses as second and stern anchors, and get another anchor as primary,like a Sarca Excel or similar. 300 feet of chain per side should be enough.

 

[Cold Duck]

Pretty much everything covered by the previous posts. My 2 cents, put one size bigger than you think you need. If you are making the cruise that you described, I would have more than 2 anchors. At the start of our cruise in the Caribbean, we had a Danforth fail and we didn't get past Bimini! Xmas winds 20-30 and a fluke broke off. We returned to Fl to replace and add a few more stored anchors. Tuff to get this stuff once you leave the US. An interesting situation we had was off Cabo San Lucas. Before marina existed, could only anchor off the beach, 20' depth to about 100' offshore, then dropped to 1000'. With 250' of 1/2" chain out, the boat drug anchor. The key here is now we had 75lb anchor plus 250' of chain going straight down. Windlass would not bring it up. Powered boat up and drove to beach to get some of the chain on the shelf so we could bring it up. Did this a number of times to get back onboard. Interesting problem if out in the open ocean. 400' hanging straight down would be a real problem.

 

[Simi 60]

. The key here is now we had 75lb anchor plus 250' of chain going straight down. Windlass would not bring it up. Powered boat up and drove to beach to get some of the chain on the shelf so we could bring it up. Did this a number of times to get back onboard. Interesting problem if out in the open ocean. 400' hanging straight down would be a real problem.

Only if you have an undersized windlass

400 ft of 1/2 is 1040lb + anchor.
Not much weight to lift.

 

[MVDarlin]

IMHO a Danforth/Fortress style anchor is necessary for sandy bottoms but not effective in rocky areas. For a second rocky area anchor I recommend a CQR type. This combination has served me well from Puerta Vallarta, MX to Juneau, Ak on my OA 43 Tri cabin with lots of bimini windage.

 

[rslifkin]

Only if you have an undersized windlass

400 ft of 1/2 is 1040lb + anchor.
Not much weight to lift.

Agreed. Ideally, the windlass should be sized to lift all of the ground tackle in infinitely deep water.

 

[tozz]

Make sure you find out what the max pull weight for your windlass is rated for. We run 300' of 1/2" chain and a Vulcan 55 as our primary anchor on a 66,000 lb boat and are limited to 300' due to a 1000lb max pull weight of our windlass. In practice you'd never be pulling all 1000# straight up but I like to size for worst case scenarios.

^^^this

Maxwell documentation suggests calculate 3x the weight of anchor+rode. For example I have a maxwell 3500. If I want to upgrade to 7/16" G4 at 2.1 lb/ft and I have a 210lb anchor I max out at 450' of chain before I exceed max pull on the 3500. I couldn't go to 475' unless I wanted to exceed max pull rating:

((450x2.1)+210)*3=3465
((475x2.1)+210)*3=3623

-tozz

 

[twistedtree]

it is certainly adequate but.....
Ours is 60ft and 71 short ton running 300+ft of 13mm or 1/2inch chain
We have deformed chain on two occasions.
I am frankly surprised at Nordy, who generally go a bit over the top on a lot of stuff to have gone what I consider borderline on such a crucial thing.

If I could choose windlass, chain and chainwheel again I would go 16mm 5/8th

Our current windlass, a Maxwell 3500hwc has a 3500 lb pull
Plenty of grunt, but doesn't take a 16mm chainwheel.
I could get one cast and may investigate that further when we start to run out of chain again.

What grade of chain are you using?