Coronial Inquiry-Sinking of Eliza 1

[Serene]

[SNIP]

.....a TF member, who posted first in joy and later in great disappointment.

Yeah I can imagine. Nice looking boat, with a disastrous ending!

 

[Serene]

Price was just dropped from $525k to $499k.

 

[Miz Trom]

The last two sentences of the Coronial Report (Inquest):

"In a society where day to day products are the subject of stringent safety regulations, it is not surprising that purchasers of large recreational vessels assume that their expensive acquisitions have been built and certified to meet relevant safety and quality standards.

The fact that there is no effective certification process is unacceptable and poses a risk to the lives of a significant, but unknown, number of people."


Hubby Dan and I experienced an unethical boat builder. We spent a fortune fixing everything on that brand-new boat.

This thread really brought back the sick feeling when I learned that the builder's claims of an NA-designed boat were false, during our second or third year of ownership. We discovered that the builder, with zero NA training, had designed the boat himself.

I became increasingly wary of the boat's handling after learning that. After reading this thread, I think my boaty intuition was telling me something important.

Many thanks to BruceK for publishing the report here, and all who read it & commented so knowledgeably. Thank you, Tad. And splendid detective work by KitL & Serene.

I will now be re-thinking the idea of a new hard top with solar panels for our little express cruiser. Perhaps a bimini and thin-film panels.

Cheers,
Mrs. Trombley

 

[FWT]

That hull bottom looks tender to me.

I agree with you. Not much inherent stability from hull shape that I can see. Certainly not considering height and the narrow-ish beam.

 

[BruceK]

Price was just dropped from $525k to $499k.

Reviewing the photos I see the boat has a large electric crane mounted on the aft FB to lift and launch what looks like a RIB inflatable stored there. Wonder if that was taken into account in testing stability?

 

[Serene]

Reviewing the photos I see the boat has a large electric crane mounted on the aft FB to lift and launch what looks like a RIB inflatable stored there. Wonder if that was taken into account in testing stability?

At the right price, which I am sure it will get to at some point, I am wondering if you cut off the hard top and replaced it with a canvas bimini, removed the sat dome from the mast, got rid of the davit and dinghy from the boat deck, then added a steel shoe the whole length of the keel, plus some ballast low in the bilges, it might be an OK boat.

Would need the NA to re-run the calcs with the reduced top-hamper and added ballast to see what it means from a stability perspective, but could be a worthwhile exercise.

Also says they will take a trade for a lesser value boat. At the right price there could be a deal to be done!

Thoughts?

 

[BruceK]

At the right price, which I am sure it will get to at some point, I am wondering if you cut off the hard top and replaced it with a canvas bimini, removed the sat dome from the mast, got rid of the davit and dinghy from the boat deck, then added a steel shoe the whole length of the keel, plus some ballast low in the bilges, it might be an OK boat...Thoughts?

Maybe it`s made better, maybe not. Then there`s the build issues of Eliza 1, do they there too?. Not sure about the design layout generally either...rather have my conventional Integrity 386 I think. 2 engines, bowthruster, and I know it`s stable offshore.

 

[Serene]

Maybe it`s made better, maybe not. Then there`s the build issues of Eliza 1, do they there too?. Not sure about the design layout generally either...rather have my conventional Integrity 386 I think. 2 engines, bowthruster, and I know it`s stable offshore.

Good points and I am just hypothesising, based off getting it for a 'very' good price!

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Thoughts?

Remember Ralph Nadar's book Unsafe at Any Speed, containing a scathing critique of the Chevy Corvair? The coroner's report sounds like a sequel, Unsafe at Any Price. What spooked me was the picture taken bow on in post #103. It could have been taken with a fish-eye lens and that is what makes it look like an iceberg right before it flips over. Filling the bilge with lead and replacing a smaller superstructure with carbon fiber might solve the issue, but so would building a replacement boat.

Question was asked earlier if the roll test metric (seconds to meter of beam) is beam at the waterline. I always assumed that it was and, given the photo shown above, the waterline beam is way different than overall beam. Overall beam on that vessel wouldn't come into play until it was laid on its side. Laid on its side in a boatyard might be the best outcome.

For anyone wanting to get a valid measure of their roll period, get an accelerometer phone app. One can rock their boat and then see what the roll period is over 10 seconds after the rocking force is stopped. Much more accurate than trying to time a single roll. Also download a phone level that allows you to see the angle change in tenths of a degree by adding weight on one side.

Still not sure of the overall value of having these numbers. Measuring heel angle would benefit TF posts because nobody would then say "we rolled 20 to 30 degrees!!!" They would then see that they rolled 11 degrees.

 

[Serene]

Remember Ralph Nadar's book Unsafe at Any Speed, containing a scathing critique of the Chevy Corvair? The coroner's report sounds like a sequel, Unsafe at Any Price. What spooked me was the picture taken bow on in post #103. It could have been taken with a fish-eye lens and that is what makes it look like an iceberg right before it flips over. Filling the bilge with lead and replacing a smaller superstructure with carbon fiber might solve the issue, but so would building a replacement boat.

Question was asked earlier if the roll test metric (seconds to meter of beam) is beam at the waterline. I always assumed that it was and, given the photo shown above, the waterline beam is way different than overall beam. Overall beam on that vessel wouldn't come into play until it was laid on its side. Laid on its side in a boatyard might be the best outcome.

For anyone wanting to get a valid measure of their roll period, get an accelerometer phone app. One can rock their boat and then see what the roll period is over 10 seconds after the rocking force is stopped. Much more accurate than trying to time a single roll. Also download a phone level that allows you to see the angle change in tenths of a degree by adding weight on one side.

Still not sure of the overall value of having these numbers. Measuring heel angle would benefit TF posts because nobody would then say "we rolled 20 to 30 degrees!!!" They would then see that they rolled 11 degrees.

Some good info here, thank you. And yes 'unsafe at any price' may very well be the prudent position!

 

[Hippocampus]

From MF
Still not sure of the overall value of having these numbers. Measuring heel angle would benefit TF posts because nobody would then say "we rolled 20 to 30 degrees!!!" They would then see that they rolled 11 degrees.

Many here have “lived life on a slant”. Many while doing that have had an inclinometer mounted so know “flat is fast”. When heeled beyond the amount the NA designed for you’re just digging a hole and increasing parasitic drag and destroying a smooth adhered boundary layer. More importantly for safety the rudder may fail to give useful steering input. It just caviates off the aft end. MF is right folks overestimate heel like they do with wave height responsing to how it feels subjectively rather than objectively. But overtime you learn your boat. 10 degrees of heel on a multi has had me scrambling whereas it’s nothing on a well founded ocean mono. On the current boat with a gyro I’m changing angle of attack if any sustained heel is happening. Gyros respond to changes in heel angle but not to sustained heel. I want heel to go back to zero periodically so the limits of precession aren’t approached. How you think about heel is very boat and condition specific in my mind. Because of the deterioration of rudder input with high angles of heel one may need to change speed and course to stay safe. The classic Allard Cole approach may need modification sometimes. An example commonly faced is when you’re surfing. If you’re approaching the same speed as the water under you the rudder works less well. It only needs a little more loss and you broach. Think going with the seas is potentially much more dangerous then beating into them on both power and sail. On sail I’ll tolerate 10-15 degrees of heel going to windward but not near DDW.

 

[rslifkin]

The issue with water flow over rudders in a following sea applies much more to sail than power. Under sail when a wave overtakes you there can be a moment where the water is moving forward faster than the boat, giving poor or reversed water flow over the rudder. On a typical powerboat, there's significant prop wash over the rudder(s), so that doesn't happen nearly as easily.

 

[PierreR]

I have an inclinometer on the upper helm and I once saw between 30-35 degrees roll. On the ICW and without stabilizers engaged, a 80 footer giving me a slow pass in the same direction thought I meant okay to go full, when I gave him a thumbs up for good job. My bad, we had talked on previous stops so I know he did not mean it. The roll to 30+ was between the first and second wave.
My inclinometer is a oil filled tube with probably a steel ball in it. I would imagine that there is some inertia there on a violent roll so I doubt I actually went past 30 degrees. Those waves were exactly the right size for a perfect roll. Stepping on the rail of my boat makes it go down about and inch.
I had a lot of weight down low and very little up high at that point. I snapped back pretty quickly with no hanging. Below, there was nothing that was loose that was in the same place when finished. Yes we latched the frig and freezer, still a mess. My boat is very round for the first two thirds of her length.
After that it makes you wonder what conditions you could be in off shore that would cause a roll like that. All boats have their limits and the bigger the boat the farther you can be thrown in an unexpected roll. Too violent for my body.

 

[Hippocampus]

The issue with water flow over rudders in a following sea applies much more to sail than power. Under sail when a wave overtakes you there can be a moment where the water is moving forward faster than the boat, giving poor or reversed water flow over the rudder. On a typical powerboat, there's significant prop wash over the rudder(s), so that doesn't happen nearly as easily.

Very good point. Still given I don’t have a controlled pitch prop have noticed decreased effect when surfing. But you’re right would think it would be circumvented somewhat if I increase rpms. An option not as effective on low powered sail. I was taught to increase rpms going up and decrease going down. That the slower rpms would allow some braking effect and decrease broaching risk. I thought it would be the same with power. I’m a coward and fortunately haven’t been in big stuff yet in the current boat. What is the correct technique as regards rpm in power when surfing?

 

[rslifkin]

Very good point. Still given I don’t have a controlled pitch prop have noticed decreased effect when surfing. But you’re right would think it would be circumvented somewhat if I increase rpms. An option not as effective on low powered sail. I was taught to increase rpms going up and decrease going down. That the slower rpms would allow some braking effect and decrease broaching risk. I thought it would be the same with power. I’m a coward and fortunately haven’t been in big stuff yet. What is the correct technique as regards rpm in power when surfing?

Technique varies depending on hull design. Displacement hulls may want to dig the bow in and try to broach as they surf and need you to back off on the power to keep speed down.

As long as you don't have an overly fine bow and stuff it into the back of the next wave, SD or planing hulls will often surf decently (as they can accelerate down the wave more easily and to a higher speed), so as long as the boat is not trying to dig in and broach, I wouldn't pull the power back on the downhill side, just let the boat do its thing. Depending on the boat and sea state, it may take a little experimentation to find the best speed to run for comfort and handling.

When you've got a decent surplus of power available, you also have the option to give a short blast of throttle to move more water over the rudder if you start to lose rudder authority and need more response.

 

[psneeld]

Every boat design is different to a point and every set of conditions may be a bit different than the next.

Having read many a "survival story" on handling vessels in death defying conditions, they seem to tell me there are many ways the authors used different techniques.....

Yes, nice to follow rules of thumb, but basically they all point out that a bunch of stuff wasn't working till something did. Those that never discovered a successful technique were probably not around anymore to write what "didn't work".

I have found that staying razor focused is the only way to quickly experiment and go forward or back off then your hair is standing on the back of your neck. It helps when you know the boat well but staying razor sharp when you don't know the boat all that well is really important.

I concur with rslifkin that letting the boat do it's thing and seeing what happens is sometimes the best technique. As you approach a breaking inlet or encounter bad seas in a building storm.... the boat should guide you into what is working as things get worse. When the boat is getting to the point of almost not being able to handle the situation, it may be time to reverse course and go to plan B or develop one quickly.

Had to tow many a boat through breakers and it seemed like each time I had to work with what I had, not something I already though would work.

To me it comes down to experience and working your way up...was the same way with flying helos in weather well outside published parameters.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I agree.

Even though I know nothing about boat piloting in rough seas, I do know something that has served me well over the years...

Go with the flow.

I guess this means that I'll pilot the craft as mother nature sees fit and not as my plan was.

 

[psneeld]

Using only one technique seems to be the fatal flaw.

Avoiding big seas, usually the most common technique and probably most people's first one , in itself is probably the best technique.

 

[Hippocampus]

Dashew wrote extensively about how to handle FPBs in heavy weather. There’s some information from Beebe as well for more traditional boats. For sailors Allard Cole was the Bible but superseded as sailboat design has changed. But his heavy weather sailing remains a good source to understand the dynamics of how boats respond to waves and techniques to deal with it.


Are there any source materials for small powerboats along those lines you would suggest?

As an aside so far find my SD hull surfs easily. Not as easily as ultralights I’ve been on but just 4’-5’ or so and she starts. On slice of pizza or ultralight problem has been you gain speed quickly when surfing. General technique has been to be perpendicular at the crest but at an angle coming down to not go ridiculously fast. You decrease the slope of the wave so decrease speed with that technique. Increasing the angle briskly towards perpendicular if approaching a broach. Just surfing perpendicular means you go too fast and risk burying the bow and even pitchpoling. What technique do you suggest for SD hulls? In 4-5’ that varying angle hasn’t been really necessary to any major degree. Steering gets mushy more throttle seems fine but I’m nervous about doing that in bigger stuff. Fortunately haven’t seen real snotty stuff in the NT but be good to have some idea about strategy should it happen. Looking at the bottom my boat has more boat in the water aft than forward. Would think when surfing that would increase the risk of the stern moving faster than the bow and risk of a broach/knockdown. Tx.

 

[rslifkin]

One book to reference would be Dag Pike's "Fast Boats & Rough Seas".

As far as angle to the waves, it will depend on the wave period. The closer together the waves are, the more likely you are to need to take an angle to avoid stuffing the bow. But it also depends on how well the bow lifts when you catch up to the next wave and what it does to steering.

Sometimes the solution is also to just go faster so that the waves aren't overtaking you. Or if the steering is getting too mushy at the top of the waves, it may actually help to slow down a little so you don't spend as long at the top as the waves pass more quickly. Running just slightly slower than the waves are moving is often the worst in my experience.

Given enough power and adequate fuel range, if the seas aren't too huge, there's also the option to just run the engine(s) up to max continuous and outrun the waves (with the bow trimmed a little higher than you'd want it in flat water). You'll slow down as you climb each one, then surf down the faces at a pretty good speed. Best surfing will typically be at an angle when doing this, otherwise you only get very brief surfs before catching up to the next wave. I've done this at times in my boat. With power / trim settings that would give ~17 kts in flat water and 3-ish foot seas, it's common to see the speed drop to ~14 kts while climbing a wave, then surf up to 19 or so. Once while running with the seas about 20 - 30* behind the beam I had the boat up to just over 20 kts (and still accelerating) before we came off the bottom of the wave and started to slow down. My bow is significantly more full (and has much more flare) than an NT though, so your boat may have more of a tendency to dig in.

Most SD or planing hulls will have significantly more beam aft than forward. But if the bow isn't too fine and doesn't dive too deep into a wave, then given enough rudder, it's not much of an issue. You'll get some yawing force as the bow dives in and the stern lifts, but especially at speeds where the bow is being lifted a bit from forward motion, it should remain controllable as long as you're not needing too much rudder to keep the stern in line. Basically, the objective is to avoid sticking the bow into a wave hard enough that you run out of rudder authority to prevent the boat from swapping ends. As long as you can avoid that, you will generally do fine.

Some amount of yaw is also going to be cancelled out as the wave passes under, so you may see a few degrees of swing one way, then swing back the other way as the wave passes. That doesn't necessarily need to be corrected fully on every wave if the boat is tracking consistently and not trying to broach.

 

[Roger Long]

Goodness. I started to read through this whole thread and found so much misinformation and wrong statements that I'm throwing up my hands. Take everything with more than a grain of salt.

 

[Delfin]

One book to reference would be Dag Pike's "Fast Boats & Rough Seas".

As far as angle to the waves, it will depend on the wave period. The closer together the waves are, the more likely you are to need to take an angle to avoid stuffing the bow. But it also depends on how well the bow lifts when you catch up to the next wave and what it does to steering.

Sometimes the solution is also to just go faster so that the waves aren't overtaking you. Or if the steering is getting too mushy at the top of the waves, it may actually help to slow down a little so you don't spend as long at the top as the waves pass more quickly. Running just slightly slower than the waves are moving is often the worst in my experience.

Given enough power and adequate fuel range, if the seas aren't too huge, there's also the option to just run the engine(s) up to max continuous and outrun the waves (with the bow trimmed a little higher than you'd want it in flat water). You'll slow down as you climb each one, then surf down the faces at a pretty good speed. Best surfing will typically be at an angle when doing this, otherwise you only get very brief surfs before catching up to the next wave. I've done this at times in my boat. With power / trim settings that would give ~17 kts in flat water and 3-ish foot seas, it's common to see the speed drop to ~14 kts while climbing a wave, then surf up to 19 or so. Once while running with the seas about 20 - 30* behind the beam I had the boat up to just over 20 kts (and still accelerating) before we came off the bottom of the wave and started to slow down. My bow is significantly more full (and has much more flare) than an NT though, so your boat may have more of a tendency to dig in.

Most SD or planing hulls will have significantly more beam aft than forward. But if the bow isn't too fine and doesn't dive too deep into a wave, then given enough rudder, it's not much of an issue. You'll get some yawing force as the bow dives in and the stern lifts, but especially at speeds where the bow is being lifted a bit from forward motion, it should remain controllable as long as you're not needing too much rudder to keep the stern in line. Basically, the objective is to avoid sticking the bow into a wave hard enough that you run out of rudder authority to prevent the boat from swapping ends. As long as you can avoid that, you will generally do fine.

Some amount of yaw is also going to be cancelled out as the wave passes under, so you may see a few degrees of swing one way, then swing back the other way as the wave passes. That doesn't necessarily need to be corrected fully on every wave if the boat is tracking consistently and not trying to broach.

For full displacement vessels, if you can't heave to successfully (Delfin can, most power boats can't), towing a drogue to keep you running at a slight angle downwind at 4 or 5 knots provides a safe ride. We are rigged for an Aussie made Seabrake, 300' aft on a bridle. This avoids losing control surfing, and anchors the stern so there is less pushing and shoving experienced. Never had to use it, but a nice piece of safety equipment for ocean crossings.




https://www.burkemarine.com.au/pages/seabrake

 

[Hippocampus]

Roger I know we don’t know what we don’t know. Please have some patience with us. Please point out our misperceptions.

I noticed MCA ratings do include an incline test but the associated pictures available on the net show high angles (up to what looks like 90degrees). Is the MCA methodology better than the USCG? The article you linked suggested some dissatisfaction with us methodology concerning stability.
Some of us are potentially buying new boats. Both new construction as well as new to us. For new construction there are a host of ratings we can ask for such as regards construction techniques and competency for safe use in various conditions. Which among these do you have the most confidence in? It seems there’s little difference in ice Ratings between the various societies other how they name the same level of competence but for the rest to the uneducated like me there’s variations. Are they significant?

 

[Hippocampus]

Delfin have used warps off the stern on several occasions in anger with benefit. Did deploy a Jordan series in moderate conditions ( 2 m ) as practice. Was able to retrieve the warps without difficulty. The JSD was more difficult and required 3. One to steer two get it on board even using a powered winch. Still the JSD has actually been used with success by multiple boats in serious weather over a number of years and it’s retrievable. Why did you choose the seabrake over the JSD?
I can see modest warps being safe to use for a decent recreational production trawler. But I’m concerned about using anything that would increase the risk of a significant pooping on my boat. When we spec’d the Outbound we asked the aft cleats be moved way aft and had extensive backing plates installed. Loads were transferred to aft deck/hull and transom. Current boat may not do well if seriously pooped and would probably need to do some modifications to safely attach a bridle if really high loading is involved. Think the NT is quite strongly constructed c/w similar brands but due to the glass and doors isn’t an open ocean boat. Think B boats are just that B. So shouldn’t be placed in situations where warps, drogues and sea anchors are necessary.

 

[Roger Long]

Is the MCA methodology better than the USCG?

I only worked with USCG regulations for commercial vessels over a decade ago so I'm not familiar with the recreational standards established by various nations subsequently.

 

[BruceK]

Still for sale, Queensland broker but boat in Sydney, still $479K but now inviting offers. https://www.boatsonline.com.au/boats-for-sale/used/power-boats/halvorsen-44/304197

 

[Kit_L]

And not a single image of ER (you'd think they'd want to show off the new engine, and show how well the stabilisers were mounted). Still called the "Peta Emma", too.

 

[BruceK]

And not a single image of ER (you'd think they'd want to show off the new engine, and show how well the stabilisers were mounted). Still called the "Peta Emma", too.

I get confused but this was Peta Emma I think, the one that washed up at Balmoral Beach(inner harbour) in Sydney from its mooring. Always wondered if its behavior, even on a swing mooring, in strong conditions, contributed to it coming loose.

 

[Andy G]

This is a photo I took of Peta Emma February, 2020 after she broke her mooring line.

I swim at Balmoral each morning and was surprised to she her beached.

This photo was taken two days after she went aground. The sea in the photo was much calmer than the previous day when she wa getting pounded by a swell running in through the heads. She was rolling from one side to the other on the beach.

I felt very sorry for the owners who were standing on the beach about 50 meters away.Apparently some low life's helped themselves to some salvage after she went ashore the previous night.

 

[AlaskaProf]

And not a single image of ER (you'd think they'd want to show off the new engine,.

"


Have to wonder if that "new" engine is the original one which was immersed for a while.


This vessel is equipped with a robust 500 HP Cummins Diesel engine, which has only been operated for 27 hours. The engine, which underwent a full rebuild in November 2022, comes with a warranty.