Fixing boats in Exotic Places - are new boats really that bad?

[boating rich]

I like to watch YouTube cruising and some of some of my favorites have switched to brand new, huge, complicated Catamarans. Shows I really like had older boats cruising in cool places, but have now become folks dealing with tons of warranty claims and months of trouble shooting on brand new boats.

As a person who has always bought 10-15 year old boats and upgraded and/or fixed the systems in the first year, I have always dreamed that I could buy a new boat and do more cruising and less fixing.

I have a question for the folks of this forum who have had new boats..are these new generation of huge, complicated boats that much of a mess or are the YouTube folks just making it look more dramatic?

 

[mvweebles]

As an observation, you may want to parse your expectations between boat and commissioning (by commissioning, I mean the phase where buyers options and systems are installed). For the most part, boatyards hire workers who have never spent time on a boat let alone cruised one. Expecting them to correctly install, configure, and test a complicated system is wishful thinking. A common lament of new boat owners I've met is they gave up too soon when fighting the battle to get everything sorted correctly. Was certainly my experience during my refit which led to several frustrating months getting stuff dialed in.

There's an argument for buying a 3-year old boat with a fair number of hours on it, then surveying it with a fine tooth comb so you can get a credit for any remaining issues. Best case is a seller who is buying a larger boat from same builder. A newer boat will have an asking price that can support corrections found in survey.

Peter

 

[boating rich]

That is what I was thinking. A boat with some miles on it had someone else working out the bugs or it shows up in the survey.

 

[mvweebles]

I think there's a window of opportunity where you can buy a fairly new used boat and expect to resell it for close to what you paid for it, minus upgrades. Key is chosing a brand with loyalty and a following - Nordhavn and Nordic Tug come to mind, but there are others.

The window of opportunity is around 10-years meaning that within that period, a new buyer will compare the used boat with the hassle and time of getting a new version of the same boat which undoubtedly has increased in base price due to inflation.

Example: I mention a friend with a Horizon PC52 powercat. It's a 2014 model and still in production, and Horizon is a popular brand with a devoted following. He purchased it in 2018 or so when the a new PC52 carried a base price of $1.5m, plus options of another $400k-$500k. He paid around $1.3m and has put a couple hundred grand into the boat. Base price for a new PC52 is now around $2.4m and although the boat is 10 years old now, he could probably sell for $1.3m, though the boat does need some freshening (isenglas is cloudy, stuff like that). Time will tell, but I think the relale value will drop off quickly when the boat goes out of production.

Peter.

 

[AlanT]

We commissioned a new Hylas 49' sailboat. It proved to be an amazing home for our liveaboard ocean voyages. It took 3 months to work through "commissioning issues". Boats are not built like cars are today. They are built like cars were in the 1920's. You can expect waste material to show up in various places (bilge pumps, sink drains, shower drains) also some wiring inconsistencies that you (or they) will sort out over time especially with added (non standard) equipment. Frustrating but worth it is my summation.

 

[cfr]

with new boats you might have guarantee issues for many months which i learnt from 2 friends and Benetaus 50 ft. a lot of stress between the yard, the importer and the agent who did the final commissioning and installed the electronics.....so i will never buy new

 

[Mambo42]

The one thing that I notice when I see the new builts (mostly via Youtube) is that many boats focus solely on outward appearance and not so much on usability or maintenance. It looks all nice and flashy, however mostly IKEA quality, but when they open the engine room all I can say is that they cramped everything they could find into a very small space, where access is next to impossible.
Some equipment should not be in a hot environment, but is stuffed next to the engines, water makers sitting next to batteries or inverters, junction boxes lying open, cables running over rough surfaces (chafing)
Only a few companies take a different approach, where ease of maintenance and reachability is first and foremost (I think of Bering, most models of Nordhavn etc).
I already think that on my boat some equipment is very difficult to get to, but when I compare that to what I see in other boats I realize I actually have tons of space.

And, having seen the quality of the workers in Turkey, Greece and Croatia I swore to never allow any of them on my boat again, ever. The mess they leave behind, the non attention to detail, the 'ah, this is good enough approach', I just cannot stand it. Most of it we do ourselves, but sometimes you do need mechanics for the heavy stuff.

 

[FWT]

Good observation

Well known brands can have a big following because they are volume production boats, hence lots of owners. One brand that comes to mind has owners who like to say they are well built yet has multiple owners websites devoted to repair, often new boats.

A few telltale signs. Ads that feature professional models sipping champagne while looking wistfully at a sunset, dressed in Park Ave attire. No pics of the engine room. Etc.

 

[Hippocampus]

Had a semicustom boat built for me. Other than the structural bulkheads you could spec or change what you want. There was an incredibly strong owners network. Before purchase networked with them and sailed /did walkthroughs of several. Spent a year spec’ing and tweeting outfitting. Construction was 18m.
In spite of that it took a full year before I was confident enough to go off voyaging. Even then with a fair frequency found there were little things I didn’t think through completely. Things like how many multiples of various spares and consumables.
Still the reality is there’s very few truly remote places. The cruising grounds you want to go to is where others do as well. Cruisers tend to help each other out. Often I would help another cruiser or they help me. Usually not to far away there would be a port where techs/supplies/parts existed to serve the cruising community. Of course there’s always the internet if you can find someplace to get things shipped to you.
When specing a boat you can help yourself by using equipment in common use by the cruising crowd. On sailboats people would intentionally stay away from Volvo and use Yanmar for that reason as getting parts was expensive and hard to do. Similarly things that were used in construction, a house or farming were easier than marine only. Chats with folks who cruise in the areas you intend to go to was very helpful. I would avoid anything that needs a cpu or a chip to run and stay with mechanical where ever possible. It maybe inconvenient and an extra step to use but you are more likely to be able to figure out malfunction and more likely to be able to fix it if yourself without needing to wait for a part.

 

[oguidry]

My experience has been that buying a boat made in America by a quality builder and buying through a reputable dealer minimizes problems. My boat is on the dock where the dealership preps new boats. They stand behind the boats and make sure that every issue is resolved

 

[twistedtree]

I’ve built two boats now and think it takes 1-2 years to get the bugs worked out and everything dialed in. On a brokerage boat, I think it can easily take the same amount of time to get things the way you want them, and everything working reliably. So same time, same amount of work, just different work.

I think the problem is around expectations, which is exactly what the original post was expressing. I probably am watching the same videos and am constantly thinking “Yup, that’s no surprise”. Now of course problems cover a wide spectrum, as does the way builders and sub contractors deal with them. I can think of at least one channel where I kept thinking “wow, what a POS boat and POS company building them”.

The biggest problem is when people expect a new boat will be trouble free like a new car, and that’s why they bought new. That’s a certain formula for massive disappointment, and I think ruins a lot of people on boating. The big think you get in a new boat, assuming it’s not a cookie cutter build, it a boat that’s set up, configured, and equipped the way you want it, not the way someone else wanted it. At least that’s why we built.

 

[Snapdragon III]

It seems like an especially big problem when you buy a boat overseas, then want to immediately sail it to another country, and live aboard it full time. Much harder to coordinate the workers and parts to fix issues. Much better if you could shake it out near the builder, or somewhere with a super good repair network. I would not worry about dealing with issues on a new Nordhaven in Seattle, but I wouldn't want to take delivery in Taiwan, and sail it directly to the Philippines.

 

[AKDoug]

It amazes me what I find in places the builder never figured you would look, debris from construction lying about and rough work without the precision you would expect in a semi custom vessel. In smaller boats, the assembly never was given consideration to the replacement of items as they wear out or need to be serviced. It's very nice to know a very small, and very competent, service person...

 

[twistedtree]

I agree. At no time ever in the future will you have the same level of attention and motivation by everyone involved than just before you hand over the final check. The temptation is huge to "just get going" and sort things out later under warranty. The best advice I can offer, other than planning for it to take a year or two to really shake everything out, is to resist that temptation with every bone in your body and do NOT accept the boat until every identified problem has been fixed.

And this bring up the importance of a purchase agreement, and when various payments are due, and when ownership (and casualty risk) transfers to you. One of the YouTubers had to make full payment and take ownership before the boat left the yard in Asia. At that point you have no idea how complete or incomplete the boat actually is, have given up all leverage to get things fixed, and any issues or damage in shipping are your problem. That was an awful deal and the boat did incur some damage in shipping. They ended up having to chase insurance companies all of who said "no" to paying any claim. I don't recall exactly how it all ended up.

Nordhavn has what I think is a very reasonable contract where you don't take ownership and make the final payment until the boat is in front of you, fully commissioned, and meeting all the built specifications. It's like "accepting" a brokerage boat post survey and inspections. Until then, Nordhavn owns the boat and is fully responsible for it. This was a Godsend for me when mine incurred interior damage during shipping. Fixing it was 100% up to Nordhavn, and I had to sign off on the final job. A good builder will share the risk, not just because it's the fare thing to do, but also because they are confident in their ability to fulfill their side of the bargan.

 

[Hippocampus]

As usual TT raises an important point. Good reliable builders will allow some form of performance contract which includes mode and time of payment as well as “acceptance of the vessel”. Some will allow the monies to be held in escrow until performance points are reached.
Better builders will allow you to stipulate rating society certifications. This goes beyond ABYC or EU to include MCA, norske veritas. Lloyd’s or whatever you choose. My prior vessel was built to EU A and ABYC but also surprisingly Chinese rules. I was invited to go to the factory (with a surveyor if I wanted) as construction proceeded. As an example Diesel Ducks are built to Chinese stability rules. Beyond insuring a level of quality and safety having additional certifications eases getting decently priced insurance quotes as well as freeing you from some limitations and restrictions in where you can travel and when. If doing a new build it maybe worthwhile to look into additional certifications even if you choose not to put the vessel into charter or other commercial use.
On other forums people argue about deficiencies in ABYC or EU ratings. Be that as it may still view them as very much
worthwhile. They are generated by a body of knowledge and experience that I for one know I don’t completely have and never will.

BTW found construction debris in the various bilges after a period of sporty conditions for about the first year and a half of ownership. Think one of the advantages of stick built boats is that stuff works it way out over time. That doesn’t occur with modular construction.

 

[mvweebles]

I think you have to read between the lines of TT's post. PAE/Nordhavn is a very high quality builder with a good reputation for making efforts to resolve issues. But if they have low marks on one aspect of the purchase experience, its in final commissioning. When I went into boat-hibernation 20-years ago, I was delivering a bunch of Nordhavns. At the time, they were trying to shift more of the final commissioning stuff to China rather than doing it at their docks. At the time, the final couple months really took a toll on their relationship with the buyer due to outsized scheduling delays and general project management blocking/tackling. It doesn't sound like much has changed, but in all fairness, many new boater expectations may not be adjusted to the intricacies of complex boat build.

Case in point - I recently met an owner of a new $3m-ish 65-foot yacht of high quality reputation (name witheld). The owner is a past owner/operator of a Baja 1000 "Trophy Truck" team - these are the top class and the trucks are rumored to have $1m each into them, with the campaign budget in the $5m/year range. Needless to say, a guy like that has experience with custom builds. He set aside 6-months to get his boat shaked-out during commissioning. He left with a fair amount undone because the builder was given too much time - there was always a squeeky wheel that was pushed ahead of his boat. It wasn't until his timeframe shortened enough that he became the squeeky wheel - so the builder has a platoon of squeeky wheel customers who have learned they must complain vigorously to get a response. To emphasize, this is best-case builder, at least by reputation.

Bottom line is a new build is more or less a semi-custom build. At $1m and up, the builder cannot inventory boats which means they cannot get a true production line like you do autos. There are no rating agencies surveying owners about their first year satisfaction so there are no benchmarks to evaluate builders except perhaps those brands with strong re-purchase customers (TT being one for Nordhavn, though Nordic Tug and KK are examples of others). Some brands believe their responsibility is comprehensive and include all the components that go into the vessel (within reason). Other brands are a bit more finite in their warrantee horizon - when Willard was building trawlers, their constant mantra was "We don't know what the customer did to the boat once it left the factory" meaning they viewed their boats as fledglings that were on their own once they left the nest. Regretably, that's more common and a hallmark of builders who are no longer in business.

If you want a more relaxed ownership experience, I still believe the best path is not a new build but to find one that was owned by a consciensous owner for a few years.

First-world problems I suppose.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

We stipulated a performance contract. Different stages of the build had to be done by a defined date. Delivery as well. They took at hit if date of completion of each stage wasn’t met. Fortunately they were well inside those dates. Believe a series builder even for semi custom has enough experience to have a good handle on how long it takes to build a particular boat. Downside was once contract signed there were no allowance for change orders. Exception was if builder couldn’t get a unit to meet spec they would use an alternative subject to approval.

Don’t disagree in a perfect world buying a boat 1 to 5 y old is ideal. Most boats are held for an average of 5y. Would think for substantial boats like N and new builds its longer. We watched for over a year for a decent N in good shape. None came on the market. So think your advise is excellent but unfortunately often not practical if you want a particular boat within your lifetime. It may actually take less time to get a new boat built and delivered then wait for a used one in anywhere close to decent shape. So even with an additional year to work out the kinks of new it still less time to buy new than wait to find a boat or refit a so-so boat.

Further agree new and improved is over rated. The folks who bought it the first time probably had the same intended use pattern that you have.they weren’t dumb bunnies. It’s rare that there’s a major paradigm change like LiFePO4 and that can be retrofitted. Some say for some things older is better as with the engine tier requirements. The less electronics and pollution controls the less to break and it’s easier to fix. That’s important for a cruiser. Each “improvement “ usually adds complexity and the possibility of more troubles. We were open to a N within 20 y.o.. was ok with her needing some TLC. Still none available.

 

[mvweebles]

We watched for over a year for a decent N in good shape. None came on the market. So think your advise is excellent but unfortunately often not practical if you want a particular boat within your lifetime.

My sense is the market has changed a lot since the Covid influences that created a rabid buyers market..... approximately the same time you were searching.

Yesterday, I had a beer with my friend with a 2014 Horizon PC52 (current base price: $2.7m). He tells me the broker who sold him his boat now sees the worst market he's seen in 16 years - down 40%, presumably due to interest rates.

Coninciidentally, I also talked yesterday to a friend who's harbor master at Pier 39 marina in San Francisco. She said it's very slow not just there, but at other SF marinas, especially in the 40-foot range. She doesn't know where the boats have gone, but the demand for slips has reduced dramatically.

But your point is well taken - there are pluses and minuses no matter what direction you take - new or used. In the meantime, good to see your posts about using your boat vs looking for one.

Peter

 

[rslifkin]

We watched for over a year for a decent N in good shape. None came on the market. So think your advise is excellent but unfortunately often not practical if you want a particular boat within your lifetime.

I'd expect it also depends a lot on how common the boats you're looking for are or how specific a boat you're looking for. There are plenty of few year old boats on the market from what I see, but they just might not be what you're looking for.

 

[Gdavid]

I am underwhelmed by the quality of many new boats, particularly cruising sailboats. The design are favoring form over function, over-complicating systems and incorporating features that are unlikely to age well. A dock mate, who bought a brand new boat ended up battling with his in mast roller furling system for about a year, bouncing between the sailmaker, manufacturer, rigger trying to make it right. The last thing I want is a main on a 45' sloop that I can't douse. He also had the companionway hatch swell up in the rain to the point it was jambed in place and he couldn't get into the boat without disassembling the panel.

The new sailboats all have massive deadlights in the hull, given the failure rate of windows in deck houses over the past 30 years, I wouldn't want the same risk on my hull, hulls are under incredible loads when a rig is loaded up, that hull does deform. The final design feature that I detest is a hull-deck joint right near the waterline, this is how most ever new sailboats is made with an open transom. I appreciate the ability of an open transom to empty a cockpit, but I don't trust many of these manufacturers to create a watertight joint at such a critical location, especially considering how poorly many of these boats are handled when docking. Fortunately, most of these boats spend most of their lives at the dock where the design flaws don't matter.

 

[Hippocampus]

Thanks Peter. Going Deltaville to E.Greenwich tomorrow if the creek don’t rise. Just been waiting for weather and wife won’t leave on a Friday. Down size of used is just spent 10d fixing stuff and doing deferred maintenance.

 

[rslifkin]

The final design feature that I detest is a hull-deck joint right near the waterline, this is how most ever new sailboats is made with an open transom. I appreciate the ability of an open transom to empty a cockpit, but I don't trust many of these manufacturers to create a watertight joint at such a critical location, especially considering how poorly many of these boats are handled when docking. Fortunately, most of these boats spend most of their lives at the dock where the design flaws don't matter.

That has always bothered me a bit as well. Especially when it's a flanged joint with a rub rail protecting it, as it doesn't take a huge hit against the dock to potentially damage that joint. In that application, I'd rather see the joint glassed together, but if that can't be done, I think I'd prefer a tight fitting shoebox joint with lots of overlap. That should do a better job of staying sealed after being whacked against a dock until you hit it so hard that you start crunching fiberglass (at which point you've got repairs to do no matter what).

 

[Hippocampus]

G in the past both quality sail and power was “stick built”. Now to lower cost both are modular. Modular means components are build or laid up in a mold outside the hull and then dropped into the hull while the deck/house is off and glued in place. Stick built means the hull, deck, and house are built as a single unit. Tanks, engines and major bulkheads are installed before the deck is dropped on but everything else is built in place.
Stick built requires much more time and requires highly skilled labor. Modular can be built on a production line. Stick built there’s few or no spaces not accessible even after construction is completed. Modular means there’s spaces you can never get to without a sawsall.
G you are absolutely correct. Totally agree with you. New Modular built boats aren’t as good as stick built and don’t age as well.

 

[Gdavid]

I prefer the inward flange style but anything is better than the outward flange style which is easily damaged and hidden which goes unnoticed due to a plastic rub rail.

 

[Gdavid]

I am in complete agreement, some manufacturers do a better job with modular construction, it can be done well as long as consideration is taken to provide access for future maintenance. Unfortunately, this is rarely the case, even on some of the upscale builds.

 

[rslifkin]

I prefer the inward flange style but anything is better than the outward flange style which is easily damaged and hidden which goes unnoticed due to a plastic rub rail.

Inward flange is certainly far better than outward. But if the joint is on a transom and low to the water, shoebox makes sense to me. Then if you hit the dock the joint is being compressed together rather than causing the sealant to flex significantly, so it should take a bigger hit to damage the sealant and cause a leak (assuming enough overlap and adequate fastening to keep the joint stiff enough). Inward flange is probably the easiest to glass together though, as it shouldn't take as much work to make it look decent from the outside.

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

Fleming! I wish!

 

[long-cours.62]

We had two new boat , but we design them (except the hull line) for the first one we lived IN the boatyard, I was first arrived in morning and last to left the evening : no surprise at all.
The second we give the design to a French boat yard, took an unfinished hull and do the rest ... some trouble with the integrated diesel tanks, must be cut and built new one fitted in place (lost 1000lt capacity).
But this two boat was : basic : KISS
And if we can sale, quickly, our actual we will back to one of them...

 

[guy with a boat]

Hip, you make some good observations about stick v modular, but the shortcomings are more in the execution than the concept. Either system can include good design and good access to equipment, and modular (done correctly) is a more efficient and consistent method of construction.

Low cost, volume builders often adopt modular construction and cut corners for cost purposes. The result is a lower cost product with access and quality issues. Higher-end builders may more often use stick built because they allow more changes and design mods at their price point. The high-end guys go modular when the volume allows it.

Consider the build of modular components in a dedicated work area using jigs and molds, v guys in the bowels of the boat building in place. Better access and working conditions make better parts. The modular components are then installed and (when structural) glassed into place and become part of the larger structure.

The quality of design and execution is the important part. Modular can be not only as good, but superior to stick built if done correctly. Not always the case, but don’t throw that baby out with the bathwater.

 

[rslifkin]

Interesting note on things being glassed into place. My boat has a stick built interior, but they did glass some things in place as they went in. The outer edges of the floors are all tabbed into the hull sides, for example. The aft bunk is similarly tabbed into the transom. It seems that was their preferred support method for anything that got close enough to the hull, likely both for convenience of attachment as well as to take advantage of floors and such to stiffen the hull sides.

As far as access to things, even my stick built interior has a few areas that would require some work to access (although nothing that can't be accessed). And in some cases you may have to do a little re-engineering to put something back together when you're done.

The access issues aren't necessarily an issue of modular designs, but more with boats with a liner type modular structure where the stringers or support grid, parts of the interior, etc. all go in as 1 piece glued or glassed to the hull. Modular components like a galley structure, head, etc. aren't such an impediment if they're installed individually and not as part of a liner system that hides areas of the hull.