Proposed boating safety law in Florida

[chanprr]

Yes. Too often politicians see the need to do something as a need to create new legislation when in fact the answer is to simply enforce the legislation already in place.

And while I am an advocate for training and especially for learning, neither replaces personal responsibility and accountability. Society is increasingly lacking in both.

Totally agree with the last paragraph. Thanks.
WA has an "Official Washington Boating Safety Course Online" which is easy to take. I'm all for safe boating, especially when there are many on the water who aren't aware of even the basic courtesy.

 

[hmason]

Just for fun, show your boating safety course card. My first course was in 1978, second in 1997. Also have a six pack certificate which I earned in 2010. Never "used" the certificate. The knowledge was all I wanted. If Florida requires one I will have to take another course unless they have a "grandfather" exemption.

 

[psneeld]

Just for fun, show your boating safety course card. My first course was in 1978, second in 1997. Also have a six pack certificate which I earned in 2010. Never "used" the certificate. The knowledge was all I wanted. If Florida requires one I will have to take another course unless they have a "grandfather" exemption.

Depends what the requirement and exceptions might be... some states accept a USCG license in lieu of, but you have to carry the USCG lecenset with you.... obviously a PIA unless a bigger vessel.

 

[hmason]

When CT implemented their requirements you were exempt from the course if you could prove boat ownership for the past 5-years. You would then get the card without an exam.

 

[High Wire]

When NJ first implemented a course requirement for PWCs the only exceptions were sailboat owners over 26 feet! Watch out for the language of any laws.

 

[Bacchus]

I read a number of negative comments about similar boating regs.
While I don't disagree with the fact that no state trading/ regs can teach/ensure a positive attitude or common sense.
IMO The same argument can be applied to hunting, trapping, driving, etc "licenses or certificates"
For those that criticize... what is your proposal?.... do nothing?...add,true competency testing (varied &,less than ideal confitions) require Initial ( beginner) level and improved / advanced competency after 1,2,3 yrs of experience? If owners don't pass they would need certified Capt aboard to use the boat?
Would owners be willing to support / fund the training & testing req'd?
Lots of discussion / implications to "ensure"nly fully qualified skippers get behind a boat wheel. Would requiring everyone earn a USCG Capt license even formnon- commercial operation be the answer? Some would V say no... if notbengaged in commercial operations don't bother but,they are the same folks that complain they are put in danger often by incompetent recreational boaters.
Bottom line I'm of the opinion that some education / traing is better than nothing... even if you can't make it idiot proof.

 

[psneeld]

I read a number of negative comments about similar boating regs.
While I don't disagree with the fact that no state trading/ regs can teach/ensure a positive attitude or common sense.
IMO The same argument can be applied to hunting, trapping, driving, etc "licenses or certificates"
For those that criticize... what is your proposal?.... do nothing?...add,true competency testing (varied &,less than ideal confitions) require Initial ( beginner) level and improved / advanced competency after 1,2,3 yrs of experience? If owners don't pass they would need certified Capt aboard to use the boat?
Would owners be willing to support / fund the training & testing req'd?
Lots of discussion / implications to "ensure"nly fully qualified skippers get behind a boat wheel. Would requiring everyone earn a USCG Capt license even formnon- commercial operation be the answer? Some would V say no... if notbengaged in commercial operations don't bother but,they are the same folks that complain they are put in danger often by incompetent recreational boaters.
Bottom line I'm of the opinion that some education / traing is better than nothing... even if you can't make it idiot proof.

I say unless you hold at least a 100T Masters, you shouldn't be able to boat in the US.

I could look forward to a peaceful, fish filled day on the water then.

Then again marina docking and boat ramps would be very boring then.....

 

[Delta Riverat]

Yup.

The term "Credit Card Captain" has for a long time been true. All you needed was a credit card and you were a captain. No training, no experience, just dough. I think you also had to be 18 years of age.

I have no problem with the new "boater card" requirements. It's way less invasive than a driver license and a lot easier to get. Yea, there are a lot of "chapters" regarding the proper use of PWC...guess what that's for?

 

[Hippocampus]

Think about this subject with my mind skewed by what I’ve seen. I think there’s two approaches. Proactive attempting to prevent death or injury. Retroactive having sufficient interventions to have people think twice before engaging in dangerous activities and restricting their ability to do it a second time while also ensuring injured parties ae made whole or are compensated for their injuries or deaths.
The results of immoral or injurious behaviors I’ve seen fall into several categories.
Drownings or near drownings. The overwhelming majority involve PWCs or small boats.
Spinal injuries. Especially high cervical cord injuries or transactions. Most I’ve seen have been with PWCs or small center consoles. They hit something and rapidly decelerate. The body says still but the head continues to move forward.Partial or complete exsanguinations from propeller injuries. Thermal insults including hypothermia and thermal shock as well as vascular collapse from poor rescue. This could be decreased by mandated education on MOB rescue
Although the commercial fishing industry is as dangerous as farming the pattern of insults seems different to me . More limb injuries with the rare occurrence of thermal injury and near drownings. Yes on rare occasion a fishing vessel may break its back, have water ingress crew can’t control or the vessel, MOB or be disabled but injuries from high speed collision or allision is very rare.
Most of the PWC and small boat events seem to occur in crowded waters or skinny waters. These small vessels hitting larger vessels or each other or at speed groundings. These waters and could be monitored to some extent either in person or virtually. Hence for ponds, lakes, mooring fields, rivers, and other high risk settings these vessels be limited to established channels at a speed limit of 5-7kts. View this as similar to discharge of firearms where there’s strict proximity rules. You can’t discharge within a fixed distance from houses and roads. Similarly a fixed distance from vessels and shorelines should be established for small craft. Many areas (public parks, posted lands etc.) don’t allow any discharge. Should be the same for motorboats.
Wakes aren’t just uncomfortable but also produce swampings and ejections from other vessels. Such events should result in penalties such as loss of privileges to operate any vessel, fines and being subject to civil actions.
The above proposals do not require licensing and can be done by local authorities. Operators of the small boats can enjoy their craft but not in waters where they put others at risk. Large boats producing dangerous wakes can be held accountable. Have seen cameras suitably placed to monitor for such behavior be effective (CCC, C&D etc).
As stated above the retroactive approach was summarized in my earlier post so won’t be repeated. Compared to road accidents boating accidents and rare. That being the case resources have been allocated with that in mind. Still just like with road vehicles I think operating while intoxicated being illegal makes sense. Would use the same limits and rules. This would allow LEs to arrest a drunk or stoned operator on that basis alone. My boats aren’t dry but they are underway. I think half or more of events occur with impaired operators. The boating culture floats on alcohol. Personally enjoy our cocktail hours or a beers when at rest but like with cars/trucks/motorcycles I think being intoxicated while operating a vessel is reckless.

 

[PhilPB]

The problem boaters I usually seem to see are inexperienced operators of a boat from one of the large club rental boat companies (we have a LOT of those here) or someone with a 40-50 foot center console with 4-5 600hp motors, going stupid fast in the channel.

 

[Hippocampus]

The problem boaters I usually seem to see are inexperienced operators of a boat from one of the large club rental boat companies (we have a LOT of those here) or someone with a 40-50 foot center console with 4-5 600hp motors, going stupid fast in the channel.

Yup and add in PWC rentals and rack boats believe you’ve covered it. Also a small segment of the sportfish crowd.

 

[dannc]

The problem boaters I usually seem to see are inexperienced operators of a boat from one of the large club rental boat companies (we have a LOT of those here) or someone with a 40-50 foot center console with 4-5 600hp motors, going stupid fast in the channel.

30-40 years ago, the major problem boats I saw were PWCs and go fast boats. People bought those boats to go fast, jump wakes, doing fast turns, etc. I did not know of any rental places back then but I seem them were we go sailing. They go out in a group and the group leader is supposed to keep them under control sometimes things get out of control.

There are far more regular power boats that could be a problem and anyone can be stupid for a moment. Saw one power boat going wake speed on the ICW hit a navigation beacon. They had four people on board just put putting along and ran right into the beacon. They were not drunk just not paying attention.

The reality is, that without enforcement of laws, regulation does not really work. This means law enforcement on the water writing up infractions and making arrests when needed. However, the courts have to follow up and punish offenders.

I knew of a case in Florida 3-4 decades back where a guy was caught with a couple of tackle boxes full of baby lobsters. He had dozens and dozens of under sized lobsters. He knew what he was doing too since he was hiding the lobsters. The FL law at the time, and I assume the current law, is that any equipment used to poach wildlife could/should be seized. In this case, this meant the poachers truck, trailer, boat, and scuba gear could be taken. The judge gave it all back. I could see returning the truck so the guy could get to work. I could rationalize the truck return but to give back the boat, trailer and scuba gear.....

Without effective law enforcement, people will do what they do, and laws and classes will have very little impact.

Later,
Dan

 

[psneeld]

For me, the closest calls of actual collisions on the ACIW in 10 years and 20,000 miles was with another trawler, a cruising sailboat and owners of Hinkley Picnic boats.

A lot of different vessels were annoying, but as for actual danger....not so much.

As far as enforcement, yep, stinging people has become a thing of the past. I agree taking a persons ability to continue their livelihood might be extreme...but a lot tougher stinging can be metered out to send a stronger signal.

The problem with that is it needs to be done BEFORE people are turned loose with their boats...unfortunately, many are just oblivious to laws, rules, customs, courtesies, common sense ad nauseum...so it is hard to sting people who just don't KNOW anybetter.

So for those that think boating safety cards are a joke...well you can for now at how they are given and enforced..... but ONLY something along those lines will truly make a difference.

Judges/USCG hearing officers just will not slam dunk anyone under the current system...too many just don't know and based on the requirements.... how can you expect them too. So leniency has been so widespread, slam dunks will be appealed left and right.

 

[Hippocampus]

For me, the closest calls of actual collisions on the ACIW in 10 years and 20,000 miles was with another trawler, a cruising sailboat and owners of Hinkley Picnic boats.

A lot of different vessels were annoying, but as for actual danger....not so much.

As far as enforcement, yep, stinging people has become a thing of the past. I agree taking a persons ability to continue their livelihood might be extreme...but a lot tougher stinging can be metered out to send a stronger signal.

The problem with that is it needs to be done BEFORE people are turned loose with their boats...unfortunately, many are just oblivious to laws, rules, customs, courtesies, common sense ad nauseum...so it is hard to sting people who just don't KNOW anybetter.
So for those that think boating safety cards are a joke...well you can for now at how they are given and enforced..... but ONLY something along those lines will truly make a difference.

Judges/USCG hearing officers just will not slam dunk anyone under the current system...too many just don't know and based on the requirements.... how can you expect them too. So leniency has been so widespread, slam dunks will be appealed left and right.

Perhaps the judges need to be educated. Know some of our organizations try to do this fo legislators. But perhaps the effort needs to be expanded.

Served as a material witness /expert opinion in a case at court two towns over. Young man was driving home from work to his young family. Perp was driving in front of him on the highway. Perp was drunk and didn’t secure his center console. Boat came off its trailer and my patient suffered head injury. Other bodily injuries addressed but young man left with intractable epilepsy. After a decade he died in status epilepticus (continuous seizures). Prosecuting attorney needed me to show causal chain. He had occasional seizures in spite of my efforts and those of the tertiary center’s epilepsy team but I wasn’t involved at the time the terminal event. I could delineate his brain injuries massive neurologic disfunction from those injuries and how this produced his seizure disorder. Later was told prosecution was unsuccessful. Furthermore no jail time resulted from initial event and wrongful death was deemed not worthwhile. To best of my knowledge other than mandatory counseling perp suffered no inconvenience. Took care a teen age girl who went fishing with her boyfriend. Their little boat was run over by another. Boy died. She was anoxic and vegetative. Deemed an accident. I can reference more and fill this thread. It’s sickening. Money, a good lawyer and the right judge justice isn’t served. No consequences to bad behavior means more bad behavior from the egocentrics out there. End of rant.

 

[SteveK]

Hip. The criminal has more rights than the victum.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. SK. Your post #75... Only if they're rich. The "rich", generally, don't go to jail.

 

[SteveK]

Greetings,
Mr. SK. Your post #75... Only if they're rich. The "rich", generally, don't go to jail.

Well, I had first hand experience where a friends wife was beaten to a pulp in a case of mistaken identity. The perp was caught that day and charges dismissed by judge due to a defense of cocaine sycousus (spell?). Was a druggy, not rich.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. SK. Yep. There's that too.

 

[Seevee]

Very interesting post... and some mis-information....


Look at the NTSB stats the Major causes for accidents are:


Operator inattention
Improper lookout
Operator inexperience
Excessive speed
Alcohol use
Navigation rules violation


There seems to be a huge amount of folks that think alcohol is a leading cause... not true. Also, as far as i know, there is NO law that says you can't drink and drive your boat. You just can't be intoxicated. Personally, I could argue to avoid a drink until the anchor is set or you're secured to the dock, and my mate and I are strict about that... same with flying... even though sometimes with really tough flights a drink would get my guts up a bit.... no way.


And, there are a LOT of folks that could have a few drinks and boat without an issue. And there was a study with airline pilots that proves that two drinks made the pilot perform better than no drinks... I digress.


However, inattention is HUGE... a lot of folks don't have situations awareness and have no clue what it is and that's huge. And no one is looking out the window. Also, the guy that that has zero experience but can afford a nice new boat is a menace. I could argue that sales people should be required to provide an on the water training for a new owner, and a lot of them do.



solutions?????


Certainly "some" mandatory training is necessary and should include on the water training as well as classroom/online, and some review on the important stuff.



And one reasons I limit my boating to weekdays.

 

[psneeld]

Very interesting post... and some mis-information....


Look at the NTSB stats the Major causes for accidents are:


Operator inattention
Improper lookout
Operator inexperience
Excessive speed
Alcohol use
Navigation rules violation


There seems to be a huge amount of folks that think alcohol is a leading cause... not true. Also, as far as i know, there is NO law that says you can't drink and drive your boat. You just can't be intoxicated. Personally, I could argue to avoid a drink until the anchor is set or you're secured to the dock, and my mate and I are strict about that... same with flying... even though sometimes with really tough flights a drink would get my guts up a bit.... no way.


And, there are a LOT of folks that could have a few drinks and boat without an issue. And there was a study with airline pilots that proves that two drinks made the pilot perform better than no drinks... I digress.


However, inattention is HUGE... a lot of folks don't have situations awareness and have no clue what it is and that's huge. And no one is looking out the window. Also, the guy that that has zero experience but can afford a nice new boat is a menace. I could argue that sales people should be required to provide an on the water training for a new owner, and a lot of them do.



solutions?????


Certainly "some" mandatory training is necessary and should include on the water training as well as classroom/online, and some review on the important stuff.



And one reasons I limit my boating to weekdays.

A few years back BoatUS did an unscientific study with 4 volunteers consuming alcohol and running an obstacle course.

2 did poorly stone cold sober, one after being smashed with like 8 drinks, passed the course no problem.

To me that shows some excel at boat handling whether drinking or not and others just should never operate a boat at all.

Those might be gross generalizations but compared to what some here think about alcohol...all I can say is feelings and opinions don't prove a thing. I have posted before that the government stats on alcohol and mechanical operation are skewed by the way the stats are collected...at least in motor vehicle stats.

 

[Seevee]

Good point, Paul, and yes, stats can be skewed.

 

[Hippocampus]

50% of boating accidents involve alcohol. This has been demonstrated in multiple studies.

https://www.uscgboating.org/recreational-boaters/boating-under-the-influence.php

Lowest number reported is still over 7%

https://www.helpadvisor.com/community-health/boating-accidents-and-deaths-study

Numbers are skewed. Some report any alcohol. Others only when legally drunk. As with any study need to read methods before interpreting results.

Know what I’ve seen for serious or fatal. High incidence of intoxicated operators- both alcohol and pharmaceuticals. Know basic neurology alcohol impairs prefrontal cortex function at any blood level. Curve is non linear but impairment still exists and is evident in chronic imbibers as well as naive.

Boating and being on the water is fun. Being in the moment and fully aware makes it more fun. See no reason to be intoxicated with any substance. Though out my life have been involved in many cultures where drinking was a part. HOG, beer can racing, fishing etc. personally I was better at the activity sober and enjoyed it more. Saw other’s performance was clearly impaired as was their judgement.
Was out to Sturgis. After a day long ride had dinner with friends and we all bent elbows. One friend decided to go back out to Custer to see the moon. Several tried to talk him out of it. His judgement was impaired. He and his full dresser got tossed into the air by a bison. So many fractures now can barely walk and is in constant pain. Was he drunk? No . Was his judgment impaired? I think so knowing he was a careful rider when I rode with him.

Many of our current diversions include a culture of intoxication or alcohol/drug enhancement. Find this unfortunate as the activity itself should be sufficient for enjoyment. Know while underway I see more details of my environment sober, make better decisions and don’t need any artificial agent to control stesss. I’m in the moment and not stressed. Sure in the evening an intoxicant gives me a different experience that I also enjoy. I had a very unpleasant experience needing to take a crew off the watch schedule. I run a dry boat on passage. Crew hide his alcohol in his kit. Made a poor decision which made me need to drop the rags and engine away from a ship mid ocean. He swore to stop drinking. 2 d later showed tremors and impaired cognition. Allowed him enough alcohol to prevent DTs but he remained off watch. Just couldn’t trust him and I had to sleep periodically. He was most unpleasant denying an issue as he had a high functioning job and was successful. Weeks after landfall his wife called and thanked me for the tough love.

 

[psneeld]

The US Military came out in the late 1990s and reported (not sure if externally) that alcohol and accidents was a badly skewed argument and to fix the problem, stop arguing something that even prohibition couldn't stop.

They showed where the majority of alcohol related incidents were really due to fatigue because the hour of the incident.

Loosely said, if the same situation happened at 2pm in the afternoon, compared to 2am in the morning, there was a much higher probability that the incident would have not happened.

Anectdotal stories are usually half BS in my "trained" opinion.

I am so sick and tired of the anti-alcohol bandwagon based on outright lies that I can't stand it.

Sure there is an issue with some people and their alcohol habits...and there are still a bunch that are a lot more reasonable and safe.

Out..........

 

[Hippocampus]

Again need to agree to disagree.
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Consistently both on fMRI imaging as well as neuropsych testing impairment is apparent in all spheres of cognition but to a particularly significant degree in executive functioning and attention.
Fatigue means totally different things depending upon context. Muscular or cardiovascular fatigue recovery times after exercise are brief and after recovery have no effects on cognition. Sleep deprivation has a severe and persistent effect as it only resolves after a period of recovery sleep with higher and earlier REM and more slow wave sleep. It generally takes 2-3 days to fully recover.

You use a common debating technique to confound the audience. Stress impairs cognition. Anxiolytics such as benzodiazepines, alcohol and THC have anxiolytic properties. With mild intoxication although cognition is impaired its impairment is superceeded by decreased anxiety depending upon the subject, level of intoxication and anxiety. This doesn’t mean that the alcohol doesn’t impair. Rather one could achieve better functioning taking heed to the old saw”keep calm-sail on”. Pre training with counseling or cognitive behavioral therapy would be preferred to using any form of anxiolytic.

You seem to try to compare the short term due to short half life effect of alcohol to the more persistent effects of sleep deprivation. Not logical. Both are bad.

One should note significant chronic abusers were not included in the above studies.

 

[psneeld]

Guess I am just an old operator, not a medical type....and I am not kidding about what was floating around military safety circles.

I can't argue that alcohol doesn't affect you...the bottom line in operating things is how much and what else is affecting you.

Safety guys look for root causes, something I don't see in medical circles too much...as in your second to last paragraph......in fact my visit to a friend in the hospital yesterday showed a very poor example of medicine on several levels of double checking work, understanding a briefing, discussing things without checking the record and failing to outline what's next.

I will leave this with all that been posted.......

 

[SteveK]

Hey Hip,

Here’s a partial list showing blood alcohol levels at 0.48% and 0.05%. A level many would tolerate without appearing drunk.

You menat 0.5? I know this as I try to maintain a 4.9 average

 

[Delta Riverat]

0.48 is nearly dead. The legal (driving limit) is .08

 

[SteveK]

0.48 is nearly dead. The legal (driving limit) is .08

yes I think the doc meant 0.048 to 0.05.
BTW BC Canada went to 0.05 from 0.08 a while ago hurting the pubs and restaurants more than solving any drinking issue perceived. Now I can only have 4 drinks with dinner

 

[Hippocampus]

Safety guys look for root causes, something I don't see in medical circles too much..

Pretty amazing statement. Oh BTW I made my living as a diagnostician. I.e. figuring out root causes for symptoms and imaging/physical exam/lab findings.
Also neuroscientist I.e. figuring ultimate root causes at a cellular and subcellular level. . Apparently the medical circles you travel in are most unusual. The basic purpose of medical practitioners and biomedical scientists is to figure out root causes. A truly offensive statement to suggest otherwise. Don’t you realize until you know the “root cause” you can’t provide the best care. Figure out the root cause and then you can figure out what to do about it. If your statement reflects your experience change your circle.

You’re right 0.048-0.05. My bad. Suspect Canada went to 0.05 due to evidence of sufficient impairment as to affect driving at that level. Haven’t done a search so not sure. Have several friends in LE. Would think 4 drinks if spread out over some hours during a meal and after dinner socializing might not cause you to exceed the limit. Obviously body mass and how many hours comes into play. There’s also a variance in how rapidly different folks metabolize alcohol. In our state the current difficulty is obtaining sufficient usable evidence for non alcoholic forms of substance related impairment. Anxiolytics, pot, sedatives, psychotropics etc. Field balance or cognitive testing can be disputed and discounted more easily by a skilled lawyer than a level.p. They are now detective or higher and say they don’t miss traffic stops and domestics.

 

[dannc]

An average man will metabolize an ounce of alcohol or a 5%ish beer in an hour. So if said man is drinking a single beer per hour they won't get drunk. The problem is they start drinking at say a BBQ party at 4:00pm and they drink two beers per hour....

At 5:00pm they have one beer in their system after drinking two beers
At 6:00pm they have two beers in their system after drinking four beers.
At 7:00pm they have three beers in their system after drinking six beers.
At 8:00pm they have four beers in their system after drinking eight beers.

At 7:00pm or 8:00pm, depending on their body weight, they are likely to/could be over the .08 level.

But I only had a couple of beers he said...

If the man drinks three beers an hour, the progression is much faster.

Women metabolize alcohol slower/less then men so a woman would have hit the limit a bit earlier. Weight has an impact on how much one can drink and still be "sober" and since most woman weigh less than most men, they will hit the limit sooner.

Later,
Dan