Replacing all electronics, Maybe

[rslifkin]

My experience is based on just that - my experience. I have honestly never compared the specs. Previously I only had Icom radios, and was happy with the radio performance. On my current boat I built it with GX6000 SH VHFs, and from the get go didn't feel they were working well. Just monitoring VTS was much less clear, with more interference. The antenna installation was all new with LRM 400 cable, soldered connectors, top end antennas, etc. And swapping antennas between VHFs made no difference, so seemed unlikely to be an antenna problem. So as an experiment, I got an M510 and dropped it in to see how it performed. It was back to what I expected. Clear reception, no static, clear communications all around. So I replaced both VHFs and sold the GX6000. The M510s were distinctly more expensive, and I HATE the stupid wireless remote box that is required just for a loud hailer. So, so stupid, and so, so ignorant of how flakey wireless can be on a boat. But the radio works great, and that's what's most important from that particular device.

Interesting. I haven't used a GX6000, but the specs do indicate their receiver sensitivity is nothing special. The M510 isn't any more sensitive though. From what I'm seeing and your description, there must be some aspect of the receivers that isn't as good on the SH units for noise rejection or something, but isn't clearly reflected by the provided specs for either unit.

 

[PierreR]

Given the boat and intended use, this would be my cut at a system, with rough costs:


- Coastal Explored for charting. It uses official NOAA charts, not post processed/delayed update of the charts. It's still the easiest system to use. $400



- Run CE on an Intel NUC computer, and get a Rose Point Nemo gateway to interface to the rest of the nav electronics. $1000


- For display screens, I personally would get daylight brightness screens for both the pilot house and the fly bridge. You definitely need one, waterproof too, for the fly bridge. Some people are happy with commercial computer screens in the pilot house, but I'm not. It's not worth the cost of a Hattland or Furuno branded monitor, but there are much more affordable screens that I think are worth the premium for full dimming and daylight brightness. Search here on TF for recommendations, especially those from Steve Mitchell..


- You will need a keyboard and mouse for both the pilot house and the fly. Wireless devices might let you carry the same devices back and forth, but check to be sure reception is trouble free. Use dual screen mirroring in the NUC so the fly and PH show the same screen.


- Spend the $$ on a good satellite compass. A Furuno SCX20 ($1100) would be a good choice. This gives you position and heading with max accuracy, and will perform well with radar ARPA and an auto pilot. IF you want to spend more money on your system, this is where I'd do it first, upgrading to a Furuno SC70 ($4000).



- For an autopilot I'd get a Furuno NavPilot 700, or a Simrad AP70/AC70. Just figure out ahead of time how you are going to interface everything to be sure you have all the needed ports. The AC70 is a bit limited compared to the NavPilot, but you can also use an AC80 which is very flexible. ($??, but this will end up being one of the most costly subsystems)



- For radar I'd get a Furuno standalone radar. For your use one of their 24" dome radars would be more than sufficient. They make a variety of models, some with integrated screen, and some that are black box and use an external screen. Pick whatever fits best. With this approach you will NOT have radar overlay on your chart plotter, but for most experienced operators this is the preferred configuration. But you will have AIS targets on your radar, along with any that you track with ARPA. And if interfaced correctly, you will similarly have AIS targets and ARPA targets displayed on Coastal Explorer, so you will see the radar returns that you really care about without otherwise cluttering up your charts. ($$ not sure about current pricing, but a 24" dome radar with display is probably around $3000)


- For depth you will need to decide if a fish finder is important, or if you are OK with just a numeric depth reading. If you want a fish finder, the Furuno FCV series is excellent and reasonably priced. It includes an excellent display, and can send numeric depth to other devices (like CE) for display. If all you want is numeric depth, the Airmar DST800 family is the only game in town, and relabeled/resold by all the big vendors. But they have a very spotty reliability history. In my experience, depth (the "D" in DST) is pretty reliable, speed (the "S" in DST) never works at all, and temp (the "T" in DST) will fail in 1-3 years. So I get the DT model and don't even attempt to use speed, and enjoy the temp reading for as long as it lasts. ($500?)



- For AIS I would get one of the EmTrak class B devices. EmTrak is the retail brand for the company that makes nearly all of the AIS devices on the market, regardless of who's name is on it. ($500)



- For VHFs, I would only get Icom. I think it's a lesser of evils decision, because both Icom and Standard Horizon have crappy interfacing to other equipment. However, in my experience, the core radio from Icom is distinctly better than SH. I was always told they are equivalent, so I tried SH on my current boat. In less than a year I had replaced them with Icom because there was such a significant difference in radio performance. I like two VHFs so it's easy to monitor 16/9, while still being active on 13 or another working channel. To handle the flybridge, you can have two VHFs in the PH where they are weather protected, and use remote command mics on the fly bridge. ($500 to $1000 per VHF+remote)



- Interfacing, you can punt and just connect everything via N2K, but personally I will only use 0183 for primary nav data. That's position and heading from the sat compass to the Nemo (CE), AP, and radar. That prevents N2K issues from impacting primary navigation of the boat.


I have evolved to this approach after a couple of single-brand, integrated systems that were disappointing in one critical way or another, and have now built several nav systems using this current approach and been very happy with them. You need to take a little more time to plan it out, but it is spends money where it matters, usually costs less in total, and performs better.

I was certainly waiting for your response but it will take me a bit of time to decipher what you just said.

 

[twistedtree]

Interesting. I haven't used a GX6000, but the specs do indicate their receiver sensitivity is nothing special. The M510 isn't any more sensitive though. From what I'm seeing and your description, there must be some aspect of the receivers that isn't as good on the SH units for noise rejection or something, but isn't clearly reflected by the provided specs for either unit.

That would be my take too. Specs are good, but narrow slices of what makes up a whole product. I couldn't begin to tell you what Icom does differently, but the results I think are unmistakable.

 

[twistedtree]

I was certainly waiting for your response but it will take me a bit of time to decipher what you just said.

For most DIY, I can't deny the benefit of going with a single brand, plugging it all together, calling one support number, and declaring victory. The down side is that it will almost certainly cost more, and have elements that are not best of breed. And when it's time to upgrade something, it's likely to trigger a much larger upgrade.



Heck, at the other end of the spectrum, lots of people cruise very successfully with nothing but an iPad and a depth sounder. You can't operate at night or in fog, but many people wouldn't do that anyway. It's worth considering, and can be done for $1-2K I would guess. And perhaps add an AP with Auto mode only (just steers a constant heading).

 

[Pascall]

Have two Sailor VHF RT 2048 on board, very satisfied with it, superior quality but it does come with a price tag.
Its now 30 years old and you can still update the software and all parts are still available, not that I needed it.
If the new generation, model RT 6222, is as good as its predecessors, then there will be Sailor VHF radios in the steering position.

Pascal.

 

[twistedtree]

I just re-read your original post, and think your instincts are good for a first step - and there is no reason you can't do this step-wise. Some of the best advice out there is to use a boat for a while before doing big projects. You already have more miles in your delivery than many have in a lifetime, which puts you at a real advantage.


You identified three things you'd like to replace short term; The autopilots, GPS, and depth sounder.


I'd suggest a Furuno NavPilot 700, and see if you can reuse whatever steering pump(s) you already have. That will save you some $$, and get you a modern AP with lots of interfacing options.


I strongly suggest a sat compass like a Furuno SCX20. You will need a GPS and heading sensor anyway for good AP performance, so just get the sat compass which covers both functions.


Then get an Airmar DT800 for depth, unless you are a fishing fanatic in which case get a Furuno FCV somethingorother.


Build a small N2K network to connect it all, and get a RosePoint Nemo interface too. Also build a small boat ethernet network with wifi, just like you would do in your house. Plug the Nemo into the ethernet network, and it can broadcast all the nav data onto your wifi. That will let your iPad get high quality ship's nav data rather than it's internal GPS, and with Nemo you can control which device's data goes onto wifi so you can be sure everyone is using the Sat compass, and not something else.


Also spend $400 to get a copy of Coastal Explorer and load it on a laptop. It will also be able to get all the nav data from Nemo over wifi. You will be able to play around with it, compare to the iPad, create routes, and direct the AP to follow those routes if you want. It's a low-cost way to see if the added capabilities of CE matter to you, or if Navionics on an iPad is sufficient.


Continue to use your existing radar.


Then use the boat for a season or two, and see what else you might want to do. If you fall in love with CE, you can then look at installing monitors and a NUC nav computer rather than using a laptop. If you use the radar a lot, then you could consider updating it. And you can add AIS at any time. It all seems like a really good starting point, and a good launch point for whatever else you might want to add. And it's all without any lock-in to a single vendor. Interfacing is 100% industry standards.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Why so little faith in Garmin?

 

[PierreR]

I just re-read your original post, and think your instincts are good for a first step - and there is no reason you can't do this step-wise. Some of the best advice out there is to use a boat for a while before doing big projects. You already have more miles in your delivery than many have in a lifetime, which puts you at a real advantage.


You identified three things you'd like to replace short term; The autopilots, GPS, and depth sounder.


I'd suggest a Furuno NavPilot 700, and see if you can reuse whatever steering pump(s) you already have. That will save you some $$, and get you a modern AP with lots of interfacing options.


I strongly suggest a sat compass like a Furuno SCX20. You will need a GPS and heading sensor anyway for good AP performance, so just get the sat compass which covers both functions.


Then get an Airmar DT800 for depth, unless you are a fishing fanatic in which case get a Furuno FCV somethingorother.


Build a small N2K network to connect it all, and get a RosePoint Nemo interface too. Also build a small boat ethernet network with wifi, just like you would do in your house. Plug the Nemo into the ethernet network, and it can broadcast all the nav data onto your wifi. That will let your iPad get high quality ship's nav data rather than it's internal GPS, and with Nemo you can control which device's data goes onto wifi so you can be sure everyone is using the Sat compass, and not something else.


Also spend $400 to get a copy of Coastal Explorer and load it on a laptop. It will also be able to get all the nav data from Nemo over wifi. You will be able to play around with it, compare to the iPad, create routes, and direct the AP to follow those routes if you want. It's a low-cost way to see if the added capabilities of CE matter to you, or if Navionics on an iPad is sufficient.


Continue to use your existing radar.


Then use the boat for a season or two, and see what else you might want to do. If you fall in love with CE, you can then look at installing monitors and a NUC nav computer rather than using a laptop. If you use the radar a lot, then you could consider updating it. And you can add AIS at any time. It all seems like a really good starting point, and a good launch point for whatever else you might want to add. And it's all without any lock-in to a single vendor. Interfacing is 100% industry standards.

I really like this update. I am going to the boat tomorrow and really look at what I have.
I am keeping in mind that I navigated my boat just fine from Lake Pontchartrain to Ohio with and I pad, Navionics and a depth sounder that I could not read the very bottom of the numbers and near impossible in bright light. My wife on the other hand is highly stressed about such things.
Will report back tomorrow.

 

[fgarriso]

Furuno
That's all you need to know in marine electronics.

 

[twistedtree]

Why so little faith in Garmin?

Are you asking someone in particular?


I have honestly never touched the stuff, and am uninterested in principal for a number of reasons.


Like with their old lines of car GPSes, there are a bazillion different models with very little distinction between them, and with very short life cycles. I believe it's all about churning the market and driving more sales. I greatly prefer Furuno's model of a few well thought out models with long life cycles, and long support. It's the difference between a consumer electronics business model, and a commercial systems business model.


Garmin tends to be more proprietary with their equipment, which I like to avoid.


And I'll admit this is prejudicial, but I have a hard time taking a marine electronics company seriously when they call a chart plotter a "GPS", and call charts "maps". It's not a f-ing GPS, it's a chart plotter. And it's not a f-ing map, it's a chart. It's again part of the consumer electronics mind set, and plays to this notion that you don't need to learn anything about boating or navigation, just buy our stuff and smile 'cause everything will be great.

 

[rslifkin]

Are you asking someone in particular?


I have honestly never touched the stuff, and am uninterested in principal for a number of reasons.


Like with their old lines of car GPSes, there are a bazillion different models with very little distinction between them, and with very short life cycles. I believe it's all about churning the market and driving more sales. I greatly prefer Furuno's model of a few well thought out models with long life cycles, and long support. It's the difference between a consumer electronics business model, and a commercial systems business model.


Garmin tends to be more proprietary with their equipment, which I like to avoid.


And I'll admit this is prejudicial, but I have a hard time taking a marine electronics company seriously when they call a chart plotter a "GPS", and call charts "maps". It's not a f-ing GPS, it's a chart plotter. And it's not a f-ing map, it's a chart. It's again part of the consumer electronics mind set, and plays to this notion that you don't need to learn anything about boating or navigation, just buy our stuff and smile 'cause everything will be great.

I'll second all of this. Plus I haven't really liked the UI on the couple of Garmin MFDs I've used on other people's boats.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

I was posing the question to the general audience, but particularly those in this thread.

Those are good points. Garmin definitely has a dizzying product line. I have no affiliation or allegiance to Garmin, but I am in a similar spot in the process with the OP and have looked at Garmin as one of the possibilities. Just wondering what I was missing.

 

[Pascall]

I have sailed professionally with, Furuno, Simrad, Alphatron/JRC, Radio Zeeland.
You shouldn't compare apples and oranges, but if I compare the same classes of equipment with each other, it's all great stuff.
If I were to build a new ship and have a bag of money, I would choose Alphatron/JRC or Radio Zeeland, is in a class of its own!
I would not take a GPS compass but a gyrotol, more accurate does not exist, but priceless for me.

 

[Pascall]

Video from Radio Zeeland how the equipment is tested.


https://vimeo.com/488531140

 

[ranger58sb]

I was posing the question to the general audience, but particularly those in this thread.

Those are good points. Garmin definitely has a dizzying product line. I have no affiliation or allegiance to Garmin, but I am in a similar spot in the process with the OP and have looked at Garmin as one of the possibilities. Just wondering what I was missing.

I haven't found Garmin's user interface all that intuitive; in fact, it seems inconsistent in menuing appoach to various systems settings...

And I find it a bit cheesy to charge $100/year for annual chart updates... or with no optional alternative like free NOAA charts. I'd not be against them charging for value added, but their charts aren't showing me anything over and above NOAA charts.

-Chris

 

[twistedtree]

Video from Radio Zeeland how the equipment is tested.


https://vimeo.com/488531140

Are Radio Zeeland and Radio Holland one in the same? I have seen a bunch of Radio Holland's stuff and it's impressive. To me they seem to be a very high end integrator for commercial ships. Does that sound right?

 

[Pascall]

Radio Zeeland is separate from Radio Holland.
Radio Zeeland is very highly regarded in commercial shipping and has grown by developing equipment in inland shipping.
Later, it also focused on the mega yachts.

Alphatron/JRC work closely together with the development of equipment, fully developed for commercial shipping, this company is also known for its very solid equipment and 24 x 7 suport.

Radio Holland also has the same qualifications as the companies mentioned above.

 

[Pascall]

What I miss a bit in this story is the helmsman's seat.
It's only about the equipment, but I think the seat is just as important for a comfortable ride.
Sure that the equipment is intrigued in the helmsman's seat.
I have opted for a Noordsap helmsman's seat and the equipment itself intrigued in the armrests, this contains very well!

 

[PierreR]

Okay, went to the boat today and here is what I actually have.
Lower helm:
Furuno GPS-70 (early 90's)
Furuno AP-500 autopilot (early 90's)
FAP-55 control unit
Flux gate compass
Wagner PV-100 hydraulic power unit
FAP-61 rudder position sensor
Wood Freeman 500 auto pilot (late 70's)
FR-8030D Marine Radar
48" Furuno open array antenna
Eagle SupraPro fish finder (late 90's)
Horizon Horizon Infinity VHF Probably early 2000's
I pad with Navionics
ATT hot spot.
Elf GPS

Upper helm
I Pad with Navionics.
Garmin GPSmap 182C without charts
Sandpiper DL depth sounder ( Late 70's)
Uniden Solara VHF (early 2000's)
Standard Horizon HX890E Hand Held VHF (2022)
Wood Freeman remote control

I operate mostly from the upper helm
There is very likely a 0183 network for the Furuno stuff

 

[RickyD]

That would be my take too. Specs are good, but narrow slices of what makes up a whole product. I couldn't begin to tell you what Icom does differently, but the results I think are unmistakable.

My old boat's VHF radio was taking a dive so I asked my neighbor how he liked his. H liked it. So I bought one at Worst Marine and installed. I was on the water behind one of my friends so I called him on my new radio. We had trouble. So later I replaced the antenna and wiring with a high end unit. Then I contacted my marina office on 16. They and I had static. So I picked up my Standard Horizon handheld and the office said Ok I hear you great now. So I hired a local (San Diego) marine electronics company to come out and check everything. He couldn't really find the answer but suggested that there was something wrong with the radio. So I brought it back to Worst Marine and they dutifully replaced it. I had the same problem. I took it back and traded $100 up for an ICom. Perfect. I was picking up chatter from even over the Point Loma peninsula at Mission Bay. I picked up some Los Angeles transmissions but they were probably bouncing off the ionosphere. Only ICOM for me now.

 

[twistedtree]

Okay, went to the boat today and here is what I actually have.
Lower helm:
Furuno GPS-70 (early 90's)
Furuno AP-500 autopilot (early 90's)
FAP-55 control unit
Flux gate compass
Wagner PV-100 hydraulic power unit
FAP-61 rudder position sensor
Wood Freeman 500 auto pilot (late 70's)
FR-8030D Marine Radar
48" Furuno open array antenna
Eagle SupraPro fish finder (late 90's)
Horizon Horizon Infinity VHF Probably early 2000's
I pad with Navionics
ATT hot spot.
Elf GPS

Upper helm
I Pad with Navionics.
Garmin GPSmap 182C without charts
Sandpiper DL depth sounder ( Late 70's)
Uniden Solara VHF (early 2000's)
Standard Horizon HX890E Hand Held VHF (2022)
Wood Freeman remote control

I operate mostly from the upper helm
There is very likely a 0183 network for the Furuno stuff

I think my previous suggestions still hold.


It would be tempting to keep the Furuno NavPilot 500, but I expect having a display/control on the fly bridge is important. You might be able to find a second display and cable for the NP 500, but I'd be reluctant to put money into expanding an obsolete product. So I'd upgrade it to a NavPilot 700, keep the existing steering pump, and ask Furuno if you can still use the existing rudder position sensor. Just give them a call. You will talk to a knowledgeable person who will give you a prompt and accurate answer. Changing position sensors isn't a big deal, but running the wire will be, so if you can't use the existing sensor, see if you can splice into the existing cable. Or just bite the bullet and run the new cable for a new sensor.


I don't know if Navionics on an iPad can display depth, assuming it's available over wifi. If it can't, then you will need some sort of display in the PH and fly bridge. All the usual suspects, including Maretron, make ~4" displays that can be set up to show 1-4 different data items. I'd put one at head helm and connect to the N2K network.


Over the next year or so of using the boat, I'd suggest trying to come up with a long term plan for whatever you want to do. It's not about the equipment, but about dash space and where to put everything. Replacing equipment is easy, but finding dash space, moving other things, patching holes left behind, and creating new panels or overlay panels can be much more work. So having a plan before you start replacing VHFs, adding large monitors, installing a new radar, etc. can save you a bunch of work down the road.

 

[PierreR]

twistedtree, I am well aware of the installation space and redoing the panels and am considering building a wrap around bridge at the upper helm. No matter what the layout at the upper helm right now is not that ergonomic to work with.
I had strongly considered keeping the AP-500. Right now on E-Bay there is a used control and cable for $600+. I offered $400 and it was rejected. I think replacement is in order
What I am planning at this point is to go with your suggestion above and build the bridge next year. I have plenty on my plate for this year.
I am assuming that is enough electronics to complacently depend on an therefore find the bottom or collide with a nav aid.

 

[mvweebles]

I think my previous suggestions still hold.


It would be tempting to keep the Furuno NavPilot 500, but I expect having a display/control on the fly bridge is important. You might be able to find a second display and cable for the NP 500, but I'd be reluctant to put money into expanding an obsolete product. So I'd upgrade it to a NavPilot 700, keep the existing steering pump, and ask Furuno if you can still use the existing rudder position sensor. Just give them a call. You will talk to a knowledgeable person who will give you a prompt and accurate answer. Changing position sensors isn't a big deal, but running the wire will be, so if you can't use the existing sensor, see if you can splice into the existing cable. Or just bite the bullet and run the new cable for a new sensor.


I don't know if Navionics on an iPad can display depth, assuming it's available over wifi. If it can't, then you will need some sort of display in the PH and fly bridge. All the usual suspects, including Maretron, make ~4" displays that can be set up to show 1-4 different data items. I'd put one at head helm and connect to the N2K network.


Over the next year or so of using the boat, I'd suggest trying to come up with a long term plan for whatever you want to do. It's not about the equipment, but about dash space and where to put everything. Replacing equipment is easy, but finding dash space, moving other things, patching holes left behind, and creating new panels or overlay panels can be much more work. So having a plan before you start replacing VHFs, adding large monitors, installing a new radar, etc. can save you a bunch of work down the road.

At the risk of totally embarrassing myself, I'll play devil's advocate to this advice and advocate for either not sure/need more info; but lean towards a single manufacturer's MFD-based solution (with possible exception of retaining the Furuno 500 A/P) .

Why am I not sure? The OP did something like 4k miles getting the boat home after purchase. I may have missed it, but functionally there are no issues for his intended usage. He has further said that while he has well above average mechanical aptitude but feels below average in electronics. Do-nothing seems to be viable, though sounds like the previous owner ran from lower helm, OP wants more functionality from upper helm.

There are a finite set of reasons to upgrade.

1. Current system is not fit-for-purpose for intended usage.

2. New features or functions. At the upper helm, perhaps the OP would prefer to run off a dedicated chartplotter vs an exposed iPad

3. Ease of use (and related, ease of install and support)

4. Current system is broken and cannot be economically fixed

5. Obsolescence, including pre-emptive replacement due to fear of finding replacement when needed

6. Aesthetics. Prefer glass-pane look to a bunch of boxes bolted all over the place. To my thinking, this one is pretty important because it drives decision either to integrated system from single manufacturer; or more planning and forethought on install of a custom/BB type solution.

OP needs to decide whether he wants both helm stations mirrored or if he just wants to focus on the upper helm, perhaps upgrade the lower helm later.

I know the displays are stupid expensive, and refresh rates suck so performance ain't great, but there are benefits to MFDs (non-brand specific). Easy install. Weather tolerant. Attractive. A picture of his control station at upper helm would help, and I'm still unclear if his priorities, but an option that comes to mind is either a 16-inch MFD or a pair of 12-inch MFD displays at the upper helm with a modest Radar dome and a simple Airmar depth sensor. Done. Assuming the enclosure doesn't need major reworking, install is done in a day.

So what about autopilot? My first inclination is to move the control head of the Furnio 500 A/P to the upper helm and interface to MFDs via NMEA0183 so you can drive the boat off the chart plotter. Even though it's fully possible to control an integrated A/P off the MFD, I sort of like having a separate control head anyway. If the OP wanted to go the integrated A/P control route (vs just integrating NAV and AUTO heading/bearing course controls via NMEA0183), he's need a new brain and fluxgate even if he went with Furuno. Reusing the motor would certainly work, but that's the least expensive part of the system.

Future upgrade of the lower helm would be simple. But an MFD and install it. Now, I'm not clear how the two existing A/Ps interact - the Furuno 500 is at the lower helm, Wood Freeman at the upper. Open question on controlling the AP.

Interesting thread. Good discussion.

Peter

 

[twistedtree]

At the risk of totally embarrassing myself, I'll play devil's advocate to this advice. The OP did something like 4k miles getting the boat home after purchase. I may have missed it, but functionally there are no issues for his intended usage. He has further said that while he has well above average mechanical aptitude but feels below average in electronics.

There are a finite set of reasons to upgrade.

1. Current system is not fit-for-purpose for intended usage.

2. New features or functions. At the upper helm, perhaps the OP would prefer to run off a dedicated chartplotter vs an exposed iPad

3. Ease of use (and related, ease of install and support)

4. Current system is broken and cannot be economically fixed

5. Obsolescence, including pre-emptive replacement due to fear of finding replacement when needed

6. Aesthetics. Prefer glass-pane look to a bunch of boxes bolted all over the place. To my thinking, this one is pretty important because it drives decision either to integrated system from single manufacturer; or more planning and forethought on install of a custom/BB type solution.

Sounds like the upper helm is what's lacking since the OP runs mostly from there. But the boat was setup with lower helm as primary. OP needs to decide whether he wants both helm stations mirrors or if he just wants to focus on the upper helm, perhaps upgrade the lower helm later.

I know the displays are stupid expensive, and refresh rates suck so performance ain't great, but there are benefits to MFDs (non-brand specific). Easy install. Weather tolerant. Attractive. A picture of his control station at upper helm would help, and I'm still unclear if his priorities, but an option that comes to mind is either a 16-inch MFD or a pair of 12-inch MFD displays at the upper helm with a modest Radar dome and a simple Airmar depth sensor. Done. Assuming the enclosure doesn't need major reworking, install is done in a day.

So what about autopilot? My first inclination is to move the control head of the Furnio 500 A/P to the upper helm and interface to MFDs via NMEA0183 so you can drive the boat off the chart plotter. Even though it's fully possible to control an integrated A/P off the MFD, I sort of like having a separate control head anyway. If the OP wanted to go the integrated A/P control route (vs just integrating NAV and AUTO heading/bearing course controls via NMEA0183), he's need a new brain and fluxgate even if he went with Furuno. Reusing the motor would certainly work, but that's the least expensive part of the system.

Future upgrade of the lower helm would be simple. But an MFD and install it. Now, I'm not clear how the two existing A/Ps interact - the Furuno 500 is at the lower helm, Wood Freeman at the upper. Open question on controlling the AP.

Interesting thread. Good discussion.

Peter

Just for clarity, I was referring back to my revised suggestions in post 36. Earlier I had suggested a more extensive system, but re-read the original post and revised in post 36.


In short, the OP gained a lot of experience in his delivery run, and came away with three things that were priorities to replace; the AP, the GPS, and the depth sounder. He did the whole delivery trip with an iPad for charting, and for his intended cruising, that could continue to take him a long way, and eliminate one of the more expensive parts of a typical electronics package, the MFDs.


So my suggestion was to follow his experience from the delivery run, and just replace the AP, GPS (with a sat compass), and depth sounder. Then flesh out his IP network so the iPad can use the higher quality sat compass and depth data, not just the iPad's internal GPS with no heading or depth info. The whole thing can probably be done for under $5k, with most of that going into the AP.


Then he can keep using the boat, and see what he might want to enhance based on further experience. MFDs may become attractive, as might waterproof screens with Coastal Explorer or TimeZero software. But he might also be just fine with only the iPad. Lots of people are. And he can consider whether it's worth replacing the radar. I love radars, but accept they are not essential for fair-weather, day cruising.


Anyway, my thinking was that it addresses his immediate needs, yet leaves him poised to take the package in any direction he wants, with any vendor, including doing nothing.

 

[rslifkin]

If the Furuno AP is a Navpilot 500, I'd be inclined to keep it. There are tons of parts for the 500/511/520 series all over eBay, and I've seen people talk about using an NMEA0183 / NMEA2000 interface to get them onto an NMEA2000 network. If it all works well, you should be able to add another controller to the 500 and get it networked to your other equipment for a good bit less than the cost of a new autopilot. Of course, it'll be a little more complicated getting it all interfaced and it'll still have the older style controllers, etc. so that's the tradeoff for the lower price.

If you upgrade to a Navpilot 700 series you should be able to re-use the pump, but I can't remember if the rudder sensor is the same on the 500 and 700. It might be. The heading sensor is different though, but that wouldn't matter if you go to a satellite compass anyway.

 

[mvweebles]

Just for clarity, I was referring back to my revised suggestions in post 36. Earlier I had suggested a more extensive system, but re-read the original post and revised in post 36.


In short, the OP gained a lot of experience in his delivery run, and came away with three things that were priorities to replace; the AP, the GPS, and the depth sounder. He did the whole delivery trip with an iPad for charting, and for his intended cruising, that could continue to take him a long way, and eliminate one of the more expensive parts of a typical electronics package, the MFDs.


So my suggestion was to follow his experience from the delivery run, and just replace the AP, GPS (with a sat compass), and depth sounder. Then flesh out his IP network so the iPad can use the higher quality sat compass and depth data, not just the iPad's internal GPS with no heading or depth info. The whole thing can probably be done for under $5k, with most of that going into the AP.


Then he can keep using the boat, and see what he might want to enhance based on further experience. MFDs may become attractive, as might waterproof screens with Coastal Explorer or TimeZero software. But he might also be just fine with only the iPad. Lots of people are. And he can consider whether it's worth replacing the radar. I love radars, but accept they are not essential for fair-weather, day cruising.


Anyway, my thinking was that it addresses his immediate needs, yet leaves him poised to take the package in any direction he wants, with any vendor, including doing nothing.

I forgot about the GPS. As an FYI to OP, the upper helm location, the integrated GPS on MFDs should work just fine.

Peter

 

[PierreR]

At the moment, I do have an issue with the AP 500. The last time I went to use it the AP would not engage. I am not convinced that this is an AP problem. The Glendinning synchronizer finally gave out completely with no tach information at all on either engine at the upper helm (cable drives from the engines to the synchronizer are fine). Oil is leaking out of it and coating the electrics. I don't know if I feel like screwing with it or not. Rebuilt sounds fine to me. The possibility of ground gremlins also exists. I have other electrical gremlins at the moment. The AP is 30 years old.
twistedtree mentioned $5k and that is well within what I will spend right now.

 

[ranger58sb]

I know the displays are stupid expensive, and refresh rates suck so performance ain't great, but there are benefits to MFDs (non-brand specific). Easy install. Weather tolerant. Attractive.

I suspect there's a refresh-rate reason behind the name Time Zero... which seems to be pretty close to the Furuno NavNET MFD operating system. When we switched from Mutt & Jeff (Cetrek plotter) in 2007 or so (?) to the then-new-to-market Furuno NavNET 3D MFD, chart refresh-rate turned into pretty much instantaneous.

Current TZT3 chart and fishfinder refresh is equally instantaneous.

And switching between "pages" (split screens, fishfinder versus chart, etc.) happens about as fast as I can touch the screen.

I forgot about the GPS. As an FYI to OP, the upper helm location, the integrated GPS on MFDs should work just fine.

That might only be a maybe, if the upper helm is covered by a hardtop. I don't remember comparing the built-in GPS in the new Furuno to the mushroom GPS mounted on top of our hardtop... but there was a significant difference between the integrated (older model) Garmin GPS versus the mushroom. IIRC, on the other of sometime 60' or so...

In our case, the AIS gets it's own GPS -- and then that's what's repeated on our network.

-Chris

 

[rgano]

Did you say you are OK with keeping the old open array 48-mile Furuno radar? I had one of those (early 1980's model) with an indicator display box bigger than a lot of current microwaves. If that's yours, do yourself a favor and replace it along with the rest of your electronics suite. Mine died one me in 2013 in the middle of a foggy cruise, and I resorted to a Garmin because that was what was available in stock that day in Tampa. 24 hours later we were underway in the fog with that radar. However, in the long term, it was NOT reliable and blew the magnetron more than twice. My current 2005-era Furuno with a dome (better for small craft, even a 42 footer) is a ridiculous 24-mile radar. What am I gonna do with that sort of range, maybe look at approaching thunderstorms at under 24 miles, when it is already too late to run from them? I find myself much more interested in ranges under 3 miles at night and if foggy, under one mile range.

 

[Bonedoc]

I have a Simrad suite 10 years old- works great.

FWIW- A patient of mine contracts all the marine navigation installations for the NYPD/NYFD boats for NYC area. He says they do all Garmin- least call backs, least tech calls and glitches.