rudder question (marine trader 40 sundeck)

[paulga]

the attached photo is the prop and rudder over a full keel.

does the rudder need to come off to remove the prop and shaft for service?

 

[CharlieO.]

In theory the shaft should fit through the hole in the rudder after you remove the prop.

 

[paulga]

In theory the shaft should fit through the hole in the rudder after you remove the prop.

The shaft is 1.75" dia per the survey.
should the shaft be removed for inspection every season?

 

[Comodave]

The shaft is 1.75" dia per the survey.
should the shaft be removed for inspection every season?

No. Only if you suspect a problem.

 

[paulga]

in a recent boating course, one of the question is, what should you do if the steering is lost. It was mentioned the operator should reach to the rudder post and square the rudder manually. In my boat the rudder post is likely under the bed in the aft cabin. the bed board is held by some bolts.

Is the rudder post easily accessible in some boat models?

 

[BruceK]

in a recent boating course, one of the question is, what should you do if the steering is lost. It was mentioned the operator should reach to the rudder post and square the rudder manually. In my boat the rudder post is likely under the bed in the aft cabin. the bed board is held by some bolts.

Is the rudder post easily accessible in some boat models?

On an Island Gypsy, and I expect a GB, the rudder post is in the lazarette. By lifting the hatch it is easily accessed to fit the long steering arm to provide steering ability. Building over it without preserving access is not good.

 

[motion30]

My old 34 Marine Trader had a similar hole in the rudder, the shaft slid right out and threw the hole

 

[Comodave]

I am now 71 and have been boating since I was 14. My wife and I have owned 24 boats during our marriage. I have never lost steering in a boat. Is it a possibility, yes. Is it a concern, not in my mind. Lots of other things to worry about first.

 

[BruceK]

I am now 71 and have been boating since I was 14. My wife and I have owned 24 boats during our marriage. I have never lost steering in a boat. Is it a possibility, yes. Is it a concern, no in my mind. Lots of other things to worry about first.

And if it ever happens, twins owners have back up .

 

[kapnd]

The shaft should slide out through the hole in the rudder, but you’ll probably have to disconnect the linkage and a rudder stop to swing it to 90*.
It is poor design practice to block ready access to steering gear, or any item that may require maintenance.
I like to have a bypass valve on the steering cylinder, and an emergency tiller, just in case.
**** happens well beyond the scope of what one can be prepared for.
I once ran over a big mess of tangled rope that wrapped up in the prop and rudder resulting in snapped the rudder shaft off at the hull.

 

[Mac G]

I am now 71 and have been boating since I was 14. My wife and I have owned 24 boats during our marriage. I have never loop lost steering in a boat. Is it a possibility, yes. Is it a concern, not in my mind. Lots of other things to worry about first.

I lost a rudder in big seas off Hawaii and had to rig up spinnaker pole aft to steer like a long oar. **** can happen. In our current vessel the steering gear mechanisms are accessible under aft hatches which is also where emergency tiller can be dropped in.
PO had so much crap stored back there it would have been a nightmare to access in an emergency.
We cleaned all that up and organized emergency tiller to be hanging right there easy to access.
Prepare for trouble snd hopefully it will leave you alone.

 

[paulga]

Is the linkage and rudder stop accessible from the outside?

The shaft should slide out through the hole in the rudder, but you’ll probably have to disconnect the linkage and a rudder stop to swing it to 90*.
It is poor design practice to block ready access to steering gear, or any item that may require maintenance.
I like to have a bypass valve on the steering cylinder, and an emergency tiller, just in case.
**** happens well beyond the scope of what one can be prepared for.
I once ran over a big mess of tangled rope that wrapped up in the prop and rudder resulting in snapped the rudder shaft off at the hull.

 

[Capt Dan]

Remove steering from tiller

You will likely need to unhook the steering inside from the tiller arm so that you can turn the rudder 90 degrees

 

[Max1]

I lost a rudder in big seas off Hawaii and had to rig up spinnaker pole aft to steer like a long oar. **** can happen. In our current vessel the steering gear mechanisms are accessible under aft hatches which is also where emergency tiller can be dropped in.
PO had so much crap stored back there it would have been a nightmare to access in an emergency.
We cleaned all that up and organized emergency tiller to be hanging right there easy to access.
Prepare for trouble snd hopefully it will leave you alone.

Same here. I also had to remove PO "junk" and made sure I had quick and easy access to the rudder post. I practiced setting up and using manual control of the tiller from inside the lazerette last spring while it was in drydock. Its good to know how to do it before the SHTF.

 

[paulga]

You will likely need to unhook the steering inside from the tiller arm so that you can turn the rudder 90 degrees

Is there a tiller arm under the aft cabin bed in a sundeck model?

Does the steering wheel not turn the rudder by 90 degrees?

 

[DNT99611]

During my years commercial salmon fishing I only needed help getting back to port one time. The steering arm broke where it clamps onto the rudder shaft. Lucky for me there another boat close by with engine problems. We put a bunch of fenders between the boats and tied them side by side. I powered and he steered and we limped home with no other help.

 

[rslifkin]

Is there a tiller arm under the aft cabin bed in a sundeck model?

Does the steering wheel not turn the rudder by 90 degrees?

The tiller arm will be attached to the top of the rudder post (and connected to the steer cylinder at the other end assuming it's hydraulic steering), so if that's under the bunk, then yes, that's where you'd find it.

Typically the rudder will turn anywhere from 35 to 45 degrees either direction from center, depending on the boat. Turning further than that is rarely effective. If your steering is hydraulic, the steering cylinder likely provides the stops to limit how far the rudder turns, so once you disconnect the tiller arm from the cylinder there is probably nothing to restrict you from turning the rudder to 90* for access.

 

[paulga]

The tiller arm will be attached to the top of the rudder post (and connected to the steer cylinder at the other end assuming it's hydraulic steering), so if that's under the bunk, then yes, that's where you'd find it.

Typically the rudder will turn anywhere from 35 to 45 degrees either direction from center, depending on the boat. Turning further than that is rarely effective. If your steering is hydraulic, the steering cylinder likely provides the stops to limit how far the rudder turns, so once you disconnect the tiller arm from the cylinder there is probably nothing to restrict you from turning the rudder to 90* for access.

I was working on the mattress replacement so took the opportunity to open one bed board. This is what are under the bed

Which is tiller arm and which is rudder post?

 

[rslifkin]

The rudder post is the vertical part coming up from the rudder through the stuffing box with the square part at the top. The tiller arm is the piece that clamps onto that and attaches to the hydraulic cylinder and the rudder sensor for your autopilot.

 

[Comodave]

You would likely have to unhook the RFU, rudder feedback unit, which is at the top of the photo with the small rod connecting it to the tiller. Then pull the bolt on the top end of the steering cylinder and the rudder should rotate 90 degrees.

 

[paulga]

The rudder post is the vertical part coming up from the rudder through the stuffing box with the square part at the top. The tiller arm is the piece that clamps onto that and attaches to the hydraulic cylinder and the rudder sensor for your autopilot.

Got it.
There is a "distributor" box on the wall that connects to the steering cylinder via two rubber hoses. It has three hoses connected on the left side. What is this box?

 

[rslifkin]

I'm not particularly familiar with the Capilano steering systems, but it might be a pressure relief valve. If it is, the third line is used to return fluid to the reservoir when it releases pressure (which would happen if you've steered to the limit and keep trying to force the wheel to turn or if something else causes a similar overload on the system).

 

[paulga]

I'm not particularly familiar with the Capilano steering systems, but it might be a pressure relief valve. If it is, the third line is used to return fluid to the reservoir when it releases pressure (which would happen if you've steered to the limit and keep trying to force the wheel to turn or if something else causes a similar overload on the system).

Thanks
Its name plate reads model 50 uniflow valve. From the photo, it looks like a plumbing device without electrical wires

 

[rslifkin]

A quick search of that name indicates that it's part of how the older Capilano steering systems direct fluid from the helm pumps to the steering cylinder. Their later helms integrated the function of that valve into the helm pumps. I can't find a solid description on what the valve actually does, but it sounds like it might be a fancy set of check valves to prevent rudder load from back-driving the steering system yet still allow fluid to move everywhere needed to steer in both directions.

 

[paulga]

You would likely have to unhook the RFU, rudder feedback unit, which is at the top of the photo with the small rod connecting it to the tiller. Then pull the bolt on the top end of the steering cylinder and the rudder should rotate 90 degrees.

I only found one bolt near the top end of the steering cylinder, the one in the circle below. does this bolt join the steering cylinder to the tiller arm?

 

[Comodave]

I believe that is an adjustment nut. That way you can adjust the rudders so they toe in or out.

 

[CharlieO.]

If you are looking to disconnect your rudder from the steering it would be the two bolts on either side of the top of the squared rudder post.

 

[paulga]

If you are looking to disconnect your rudder from the steering it would be the two bolts on either side of the top of the squared rudder post.

got it. that's to take the clamp off

 

[TJM]

Wow, lots of stuff going on here. The hydraulic ram shown in post 25 is a push / pull cylinder. Meaning there is no spring return. The ram will move which ever way the fluid is pushed thru the control box on the bulkhead.
The item circled in post 25 is a standard tie rod, a mechanical fastening device which allows slight rotation movement of the hydraulic ram (estimate 10°) , to prevent any binding from misalignment. That nut you circled is a jam nut, which provides no use in your system. It would prevent the threaded ram from unscrewing from the tie rod. Since both items are bolted down, it will never unscrew itself. It helps keep everything tight in the connection.

In order to steer the boat manually with a device (my President has a long manual tiller in the aft cabin - quite decorative actually) you will need to disconnect the hydraulic cylinder from the rudder.
The tie rod is connected to a shiny pin thru the arm, look underneath the arm (and pin) and you can see a cotter pin. Removal of this pin is the best and fastest way to gain manual steering ability. Pull out the pin, slide the shiny dowel up to disconnect the hydraulic ram and now you can steer.
If you are worried about losing steering, I would find or make a manual tiller arm to use. I will take a picture of mine tonight and text it to you. The design is brilliant for a 40 yr old boat.

 

[SoWhat]

Thanks
Its name plate reads model 50 uniflow valve. From the photo, it looks like a plumbing device without electrical wires

It is the return valve and bleed mechanism. The bleed screws are on the valve, not on the hydraulic cylinder.