Mainship 350/390 anchor chain and rode

[jclays]

Good morning and Happy New Year.

To those of you with the 350/390. What size anchor chain and line do you use?
I recently purchased and 1997/350 it has a Lewmar Concept 1 windlass. 22lb Danforth style anchor and 5/16 HT chain spliced to what appears to be 1/2 three strand nylon line. It is old and worn.

The gypsy on the windlass is designed for 5/16 HT chain and either 1/2" or 5/8" three strand line.

I am thinking of going with new 5/8' three strand and doing a rope splice to the existing 5/16 chain.

What are you using?
thanks
Jim

 

[DavidM]

What you propose doing should work fine, but 5/8" is a little heavy to handle. 9/16" also works fine and is consistent with the WLL (working load limit) of the chain and is in the middle of your windlass rode capability. 1/2" is a little light.

David

 

[sailorskip]

The gypsy is probably the standard one Mainship used, which is set up for 5/8" 3-strand and 5/16" chain. At 22lb., your anchor seems small for the size of your boat. On my Mainship 400, I use a 20kg/44 lb. anchor.

 

[backinblue]

The gypsy is probably the standard one Mainship used, which is set up for 5/8" 3-strand and 5/16" chain. At 22lb., your anchor seems small for the size of your boat. On my Mainship 400, I use a 20kg/44 lb. anchor.

I agree that the anchor seems undersized, unless you don't plan to do much overnight anchoring. if replacing the anchor, I would also consider a more modern design as well as more weight. 1/2" line is also pretty light, 5/8" should be fine.

 

[Cartouche]

Good morning and Happy New Year.

To those of you with the 350/390. What size anchor chain and line do you use?
I recently purchased and 1997/350 it has a Lewmar Concept 1 windlass. 22lb Danforth style anchor and 5/16 HT chain spliced to what appears to be 1/2 three strand nylon line. It is old and worn.

The gypsy on the windlass is designed for 5/16 HT chain and either 1/2" or 5/8" three strand line.

I am thinking of going with new 5/8' three strand and doing a rope splice to the existing 5/16 chain.

What are you using?
thanks
Jim

5/16th Chain (150ft Very important) 9/16th 3 strand with a 15Kg Rocna Vulcan she holds every time at 8-10 to 1 ratio depending on Wind

 

[backinblue]

5/16th Chain (150ft Very important) 9/16th 3 strand with a 15Kg Rocna Vulcan she holds every time at 8-10 to 1 ratio depending on Wind

Why is the 150 ft of chain so important? Depending on where you are anchoring, a boat's length of chain is usually sufficient for a chain/rope rode. Also, some new tests of anchor types here:

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sa...ts&utm_campaign=WIR20210103-AnchorsSandAndMud

 

[Cartouche]

Why is the 150 ft of chain so important? Depending on where you are anchoring, a boat's length of chain is usually sufficient for a chain/rope rode. Also, some new tests of anchor types here:

https://www.practical-sailor.com/sa...ts&utm_campaign=WIR20210103-AnchorsSandAndMud

10-1 in 10 ft of water is 100ft of chain, 150ft uses up pretty quickly if the wind pipes up. I came from the sailboat world and it works well I used to go with 7 to 1 in the sailboat but with the windage of a trawler 10-1 is the minimum I go, and allows for a great nights sleep. Cheers

 

[backinblue]

10-1 in 10 ft of water is 100ft of chain, 150ft uses up pretty quickly if the wind pipes up. I came from the sailboat world and it works well I used to go with 7 to 1 in the sailboat but with the windage of a trawler 10-1 is the minimum I go, and allows for a great nights sleep. Cheers

Wow, I don't know anyone that goes 10-1 in anchorages around here. 4-1 is probably more common. I wasn't saying that you don't need 150' of rode, but rather that you could do with less chain if you have a combo chain/nylon rode.

 

[IslandTractor]

I'd check to see if the windlass can handle 8 plaited rode. Much easier to handle and store than 3 strand. I don't see why a windlass that was designed for 3 strand wouldn't work just as well with same size plaited rode.

Agree with comment that a 22lb Danforth style is pretty small for your boat. I have a similar size trawler and use a 44lb Vulcan. Almost went for the 50lb version. The only anchor of about 22lb size that seems adequate would be a Fortress.

 

[backinblue]

Agree that 8 plait or 3 strand should probably work. My windless is spec'd for either. Not everyone splices 8 plait. I bought new rode last season from Miami cordage and although their service is outstanding, I has a bad experience with their 8 plait. It seemed too soft and the windless chewed though it when it slipped and almost broke. The rode it replaced was also 8 plait with no issue. Miami was happy to do a no-charge replacement with their treated 3-strand which is much tougher, but also much stiffer. I'm still not sure how well it will work out in the long run. Only used it a few times near the end of the season.

 

[Nomad Willy]

I’m using 5/8ths “Brait” and highly recommend it.

How many times have you used the Danforth anchor?
If numerous does it set readily?

 

[Dougcole]

5/8 brait and 5/16 chain on my MS 400 as well. I really love the brait and it has held up well in my windlass gypsy. After 15 years, I was seeing some rust on the last link of chain under the rope to chain splice, so I cut that link out (turned out there was still a ton of metal left, but I sleep better now) then end to ended the rope and did a new splice. Splicing brait is kind of a pain and took me a while and two tries. It's not as pretty as the original splice, but it works.


In reference to Cartouche's post about 10 to 1 scope, I often do that as well. Notice that he doesn't include the height of the bow to the waterline in his calculations, so the way many people calculate it is more like 7 or 8 to 1. I find it easier to not worry about the bow height and just go by water depth. I often anchor in less than 10 feet, so the difference between 7 to 1 and 10 to 1 is 15 or 20 feet, no big deal either way. If I was in 40 feet I could see 4 or 5 to 1 if I could get away with it, but in 6 or 7 feet it's just as easy to go 10 to 1.


If you anchored in 6 feet of water would you really put out 24 feet of rode? I don't think most people would.

 

[backinblue]

Not really understanding why depth should affect your rode scope. It is the angle of the rode that is important. If you are not going to add in the height of your bow when doing the math, then maybe that makes sense, because bow height become less significant as you get deeper. If you put out 24 ft in 6' of water and your bow is 6' high, you are only at 2:1. I prefer to always add my bow height the true depth (not depth under keel) and then decide on scope. Generally I go 4 to 5 unless there is expected to be some decent wind and I'll adjust up accordingly. I wouldn't go more than 7 unless a serious storm was coming. Unless you are in a very empty anchorage, too much scope could cause swinging problems with other boats.

 

[Cartouche]

Wow, I don't know anyone that goes 10-1 in anchorages around here. 4-1 is probably more common. I wasn't saying that you don't need 150' of rode, but rather that you could do with less chain if you have a combo chain/nylon rode.

I Recommend (If asked) that all chain for an overnight stay is the way to go, My rode only comes out if for some reason I have to anchor in deep water 20ft plus and is not intended for overnight, Thoughts on this is a very personal thing - and I bow to anyone's belief in how to Anchor, Just remember that in a 25knot blow in the middle of the night - is not the time to realize you should have bought that extra chain as I watch you swing and I sit plum. I have broken loose to many times in the early years due to not being able to afford to do it right.

 

[Cartouche]

5/8 brait and 5/16 chain on my MS 400 as well. I really love the brait and it has held up well in my windlass gypsy. After 15 years, I was seeing some rust on the last link of chain under the rope to chain splice, so I cut that link out (turned out there was still a ton of metal left, but I sleep better now) then end to ended the rope and did a new splice. Splicing brait is kind of a pain and took me a while and two tries. It's not as pretty as the original splice, but it works.


In reference to Cartouche's post about 10 to 1 scope, I often do that as well. Notice that he doesn't include the height of the bow to the waterline in his calculations, so the way many people calculate it is more like 7 or 8 to 1. I find it easier to not worry about the bow height and just go by water depth. I often anchor in less than 10 feet, so the difference between 7 to 1 and 10 to 1 is 15 or 20 feet, no big deal either way. If I was in 40 feet I could see 4 or 5 to 1 if I could get away with it, but in 6 or 7 feet it's just as easy to go 10 to 1.


If you anchored in 6 feet of water would you really put out 24 feet of rode? I don't think most people would.

You are so correct Distance from Bow must be added into the equation, my 10-1 is 8ft passed the Chain marker, 100ft is 108ft out

 

[IslandTractor]

I Recommend (If asked) that all chain for an overnight stay is the way to go, My rode only comes out if for some reason I have to anchor in deep water 20ft plus and is not intended for overnight, Thoughts on this is a very personal thing - and I bow to anyone's belief in how to Anchor, Just remember that in a 25knot blow in the middle of the night - is not the time to realize you should have bought that extra chain as I watch you swing and I sit plum. I have broken loose to many times in the early years due to not being able to afford to do it right.

A 25knot "blow" is exactly the situation that you'd want both chain AND nylon rode out. The nylon provides added stretch after the catenary in the chain is bar tight. Of course a nylon snubber can be substituted if you have an all chain rode but the nylon portion of the chain/rope rode will serve just as well and doesn't require setting up. It also allows you, should the wind pick up unexpectedly, to very quickly let out more scope, while using a snubber would require time to first remove and then reset the snubber. Which would you rather do at O dark thirty on a stormy night?

 

[backinblue]

I have never had an all-chain rode and prefer the chain/nylon combo for the reasons stated. If you intend to go that way, I would not have 150' of chain. More like 50' would be sufficient for most, but it depends on where you are anchoring. Also, reducing weight that you are carrying on the boat is another good reason.

 

[Cartouche]

A 25knot "blow" is exactly the situation that you'd want both chain AND nylon rode out. The nylon provides added stretch after the catenary in the chain is bar tight. Of course a nylon snubber can be substituted if you have an all chain rode but the nylon portion of the chain/rope rode will serve just as well and doesn't require setting up. It also allows you, should the wind pick up unexpectedly, to very quickly let out more scope, while using a snubber would require time to first remove and then reset the snubber. Which would you rather do at O dark thirty on a stormy night?

If all chain obviously a chain hook needs to be linked to transfer load from Windlass to a Samson post / cleat I use a 5/8th dock line connected to hook and Samson post, (as i said this is a personal thing what works for you works for you, and I can assure you what works for me works well, Just sharing my experiences) Cheers

 

[Nomad Willy]

I have never had an all-chain rode and prefer the chain/nylon combo for the reasons stated. If you intend to go that way, I would not have 150' of chain. More like 50' would be sufficient for most, but it depends on where you are anchoring. Also, reducing weight that you are carrying on the boat is another good reason.

B & B where’d you come from?
I’ve been preach’in that for many years.
And the weight you refer to is at the skinny end (of the boat) .. least able to support it.

 

[backinblue]

B & B where’d you come from?
I’ve been preach’in that for many years.
And the weight you refer to is at the skinny end (of the boat) .. least able to support it.

Thanks Eric. I'm barely a year on TF, but a boater most of my life and always found a chain/nylon rode to work well without having to carry the weight of 100's of feet of chain, especially on a sailboat. I know some will disagree and swear that chain is the only way to go, but for me, there are a number of advantages to having some chain and then a good deal of nylon rode. I should also note that my previous 3 boats did not have a windlass, so all chain would have been very difficult to deal with.

 

[Shrew]

I have a 1999 Mainship 350.

chain: 120 ~ 130 5/16 HT
Line: 150 ft 5/8 3-strand
Anchor: 20 KG (44Lb) Rocna Vulcan

I would keep the 22lb Danforth and anchor line as a stern anchor with maybe 30 feet of chain. For a stern anchor I use Fortress anchor with about 30 feet of either 3/8" chain (it might be 1/2" it's been is storage in the lazerette under the lower helm for 4+ years) and 150 ft. of 1/2" double-braided line.

 

[Dougcole]

Not really understanding why depth should affect your rode scope. It is the angle of the rode that is important. If you are not going to add in the height of your bow when doing the math, then maybe that makes sense, because bow height become less significant as you get deeper. If you put out 24 ft in 6' of water and your bow is 6' high, you are only at 2:1. I prefer to always add my bow height the true depth (not depth under keel) and then decide on scope. Generally I go 4 to 5 unless there is expected to be some decent wind and I'll adjust up accordingly. I wouldn't go more than 7 unless a serious storm was coming. Unless you are in a very empty anchorage, too much scope could cause swinging problems with other boats.

I think at moderate depths we use different math to get to basically the same place. Example: In 8' of depth I put out about 75 feet (not quite 10 to 1, but close). My bow is 6 feet off of the water, so using the normal formula, depth plus bow height would 14 feet, so 5 to 1 would be 70 feet. Pretty close.


Obviously, at greater depths the formulas are not as close.


As I see it, there are really only two reasons to use less scope; to reduce swing room and to make it easier to retrieve the anchor. The difference between 7 to 1 and 10 to 1 in 8 feet of depth (not counting bow height) is only 24 feet. Twenty four feet won't really change how much a boat swings. Again, greater depth means more scope and more swing. So unless you are in a very tight anchorage, why not put out a bit more?



Lastly, I do think the ratio needs to be higher in shallow water. If your rode is too short, even if it is 4 or 5 to 1, you lose the shock absorbing qualities of either the loose chain or the stretchy nylon rode. I anchor my flats boat all the time in 2 or 3 feet of water. If I put out less than 20 feet or so of rode it only take a little chop to pop the anchor out of the bottom. I see the same thing with our tender when we are spearfishing.


Just my two cents.

 

[jclays]

Good evening just a shotgun reply to all the post. Thank you. After measuring I have 40ft of 5/16 HT chain on 200ft of 1/2 inch three strand nylon with a 22lb Danforth style anchor. This is how the boat came to me rigged (since Sept 2020) I will keep the 40ft of 5/16 HT chain In my experience this is sufficient and chain/rope splice to 350ft of 5/8 three strand New England ropes nylon rope. The anchor is a bit light though the Danforth chart claims it's the correct size for a boat to 39ft. I will keep this as an stern anchor and also modify it to serve as a mud anchor. My main anchor which I am still in search of is an Original Bruce 20kg or 25kg The 25kg would be optimal but a very rare size. So a 20kg maybe a 30kg original Bruce. All in good time as I rigg this new to me boat.
thanks again for all the input
Jim

 

[IslandTractor]

Good evening just a shotgun reply to all the post. Thank you. After measuring I have 40ft of 5/16 HT chain on 200ft of 1/2 inch three strand nylon with a 22lb Danforth style anchor. This is how the boat came to me rigged (since Sept 2020) I will keep the 40ft of 5/16 HT chain In my experience this is sufficient and chain/rope splice to 350ft of 5/8 three strand New England ropes nylon rope. The anchor is a bit light though the Danforth chart claims it's the correct size for a boat to 39ft. I will keep this as an stern anchor and also modify it to serve as a mud anchor. My main anchor which I am still in search of is an Original Bruce 20kg or 25kg The 25kg would be optimal but a very rare size. So a 20kg maybe a 30kg original Bruce. All in good time as I rigg this new to me boat.
thanks again for all the input
Jim

Suggest you do a bit more research before settling on a Bruce. It was a good anchor in its day but has been shown to be quite inferior to modern anchors. Check out Rocna, Vulcan, Mantus and other similar current generation anchors.

 

[Cartouche]

Suggest you do a bit more research before settling on a Bruce. It was a good anchor in its day but has been shown to be quite inferior to modern anchors. Check out Rocna, Vulcan, Mantus and other similar current generation anchors.

Totally agree old technology great in it's Day Love the Rocna. Made for peaceful anchoring

 

[backinblue]

Good evening just a shotgun reply to all the post. Thank you. After measuring I have 40ft of 5/16 HT chain on 200ft of 1/2 inch three strand nylon with a 22lb Danforth style anchor. This is how the boat came to me rigged (since Sept 2020) I will keep the 40ft of 5/16 HT chain In my experience this is sufficient and chain/rope splice to 350ft of 5/8 three strand New England ropes nylon rope. The anchor is a bit light though the Danforth chart claims it's the correct size for a boat to 39ft. I will keep this as an stern anchor and also modify it to serve as a mud anchor. My main anchor which I am still in search of is an Original Bruce 20kg or 25kg The 25kg would be optimal but a very rare size. So a 20kg maybe a 30kg original Bruce. All in good time as I rigg this new to me boat.
thanks again for all the input
Jim

If this will not be your primary anchor why bother going from 1/2 to 5/8? Also, confirm that is in the spec of your windlass.

 

[sailorskip]

If you are looking for a Bruce type anchor, I recommend a Lewmar claw. I had one on my previous boat and have one as a 2nd anchor currently. Current primary is a Rocna. The Lewmar is a good anchor.

 

[jclays]

I currently have and use an original Bruce anchor for the last 20 years on my old to me now boat that is for sale after I detail her. Bruce anchors are a very good anchor for Southern California. I do not like the Lewmar Claw copies of the Bruce. They are not the same anchor. If the boat for sale had a large enough Bruce I would transfer it to my Mainship 350.

 

[jclays]

If this will not be your primary anchor why bother going from 1/2 to 5/8? Also, confirm that is in the spec of your windlass.

You miss read or I was not clear. I will use 5/16 chain and 5/8 three strand rope (Yes spec to my gypsy) and a 44lb Original Bruce as my main anchor.
The 22lb Danforth will be modified to make it a mud anchor and will also serve as a stern anchor. I will keep the 1/2" three strand line to go with it in the stern.

 

[backinblue]

You miss read or I was not clear. I will use 5/16 chain and 5/8 three strand rope (Yes spec to my gypsy) and a 44lb Original Bruce as my main anchor.
The 22lb Danforth will be modified to make it a mud anchor and will also serve as a stern anchor. I will keep the 1/2" three strand line to go with it in the stern.

Yes I misunderstood, sorry. I do have to agree with others that today there are better choices than a Bruce if you are looking to buy a new anchor.