How do you define coastal,near shore + offshore

[Hippocampus]

See these terms used very differently by users of this site. What are your definitions?

I use them much the way I think insurance companies use them to judge risk or countries to judge jurisdiction.
Coastal-inside 50nm of landfall
Nearshore-inside 200nm of landfall
Offshore- greater than 200nm of landfall or outside the continental shelf

 

[rslifkin]

I think I'd account for boat speed in there somewhat. So the faster the boat, the larger the distances (figuring that a faster boat can be further out and still get back to shore in the same amount of time).

 

[Hippocampus]

Good thought but think the conditions, boat requirements and thinking doesn’t actually change that much. Say this having been through the 3 zones on sail, big sportfish and FB cruisers. Different ways to solve the same problems but the problems are the same.

 

[psneeld]

Speed definitely has something to do with it if the boat can still run at speed as the weather deteriorates.


What is just a couple hours back in for some boats is all day for my trawler.

 

[rslifkin]

Speed definitely has something to do with it if the boat can still run at speed as the weather deteriorates.


What is just a couple hours back in for some boats is all day for my trawler.

Exactly. And if there's advance notice that the weather is about to turn, a faster boat can cover more distance to get home in the available time before the weather hits.

 

[mvweebles]

These definitions are as good as any as long as "landfall" means a feasible port or anchorage. Along the Pacific Coast at least, transit is rarely outside 50nms from land, but being outside 100nms from an all-weather port or anchorage is frequent/normal. The level of self-sufficiency is high, though not as extreme as crossing an ocean. I sort of like the term "Coastal Passagemaking" to define the type of prep needed to get from Maine to Alaska, including exploring the Caribbean (east and west).

Peter

 

[BandB]

See these terms used very differently by users of this site. What are your definitions?

I use them much the way I think insurance companies use them to judge risk or countries to judge jurisdiction.
Coastal-inside 50nm of landfall
Nearshore-inside 200nm of landfall
Offshore- greater than 200nm of landfall or outside the continental shelf

I'd define them as:

Coastal, within 12 nm of shore, in the legal parameters of a country.

Near Coastal-within 200 nm of shore.

Offshore-Greater than 200 nm of shore.

I think those would come closest to legal definitions. However, for cruisers in different boats, I'd probably go to hours and think of coastal as something like within 2 hours of short and near coastal within 12 hours.

Then one other way I'd look at things. Most of the tow memberships are covering about 25 nm and so to the average cruiser perhaps coastal is within an area of tow coverage.

 

[Hippocampus]

Very reasonable definitions. So what do you think of some brands calling their boats “offshore” when it doesn’t even come close to your thinking?

 

[Fish53]

The USCG thinks "near coastal" is within 200 miles and inside the territorial boundary as "inland", your personal limits may vary.

 

[BandB]

Very reasonable definitions. So what do you think of some brands calling their boats “offshore” when it doesn’t even come close to your thinking?

I don't like it anymore than I like salesmen overstating the appropriate use for a specific boat. Our friends and we have Riva's with CE-A classification and while we're proud of their ability to handle rough seas and believe in them we'd never suggest them as "offshore" or "ocean crossing". With range just over 200 nm, they're quickly eliminated although do run great to the Bahamas. I know some think of the Bahamas as "offshore" but that's like saying Panama is "offshore" because it's a long way from Florida. The Bahamas are 50 nm from us and even Nassau is under 200 and US Tow Services even cover the Bahamas. I see people talk about getting a boat to cruise in the Caribbean then they start talking the Bahamas. Well, very different places and very different cruising. Yes, getting to the Bahamas can on certain days be prohibitive for many boats when it's 8' or greater seas on the way. Today, we're in the Exumas and have 1' seas, but you go East and outside the barrier islands and seas are 6' and at that considerably calmer than the past few days.

In nearly 150,000 nm of boating, we've very seldom been truly offshore and the times we did run offshore, there were short hop runs we could have made instead. There was talk earlier of Newport to VI and that's a long offshore run but you can go from Newport to the VI without ever being over 200 nm from land so boats designed for near coastal cruising can make it there. To me, that's an important distinction for a boat owner to make. There are thousands of coastal boats in the Caribbean and most were either shipped or got there by island hopping their way down.

I also think convincing someone they need a true passagemaker or offshore boat when they don't for their purposes is something we often see attempted. I see people with Nordhavns who only run the East coast, with a lot of ICW time, and Bahamas and that's fine but a very unlikely match to that cruising.

 

[Hippocampus]

B agree with the substance of your preceding post. Personally think of boats in term of -good seaboat v. not so much. Speaking to the cruising you mention will note years vary. Three years ago we virtually never saw winds below 20 . Have friends still stuck in the eastern Caribbean and even without kite season having started it’s the same. So add in the compression zones as you leave or get to the edges of the islands a day trip can often involve confused and significant seas. The combination of swells with wind waves on top and then compression effects can stress you and the boat.
A good seaboat handles this without issue. All this occurs in sight of land. Similarly there’s are longer jumps even going island to island. Multiple examples but what comes to mind right off is North Sound to Antigua or skipping by St.Vincent. So yes you’re definitely behind and protected on the south side but in between that’s not true. I continue to believe most of the boats out there (both power and sail) are not good platforms for that activity. You would wait months for perfect or even suitable days on those designs.
Lastly it depends on how you like to travel the east coast. Some like to just get there without stops until they get to their desired cruising grounds. Usually that means picking up the Gulf Stream or a countercurrent.
So think offshore means belt and suspenders self sufficiency. But there’s call for good seaboats even when not doing that depending on your locale and style of cruising.

 

[mvweebles]

Question for you Hippo: What is the passage strategy for upper Atlantic states to, say outer Bahamas? Best month for the trip; prevailing weather; strategy for managing Gulf Stream; etc. I know very little about passage planning in that part of the world.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

Assuming leaving from the mid Atlantic states. First thing to think about is where you want to cross the Gulf Stream. Want no chance of wind against water and want a narrow place without unfavorable break outs or curls. Mid Atlantic states are a good place to stage as in late fall you’re likely to have a window for both. People talk about going across the Florida straits but then it’s up current and upwind to get to Florida and you may still have to wait awhile to head east. Whereas crossing the stream further north is usually much easier. Due to insurance first couple of weeks of November are best but folks do it any time before the winter North Atlantic gales set in so as late as Xmas time depending of the year.
We’ve done it several times straight from Newport R.I. But it’s way colder and can be quite unpleasant.
Best to approach landfall from due north. With a modicum of forethought varying SOG you can avoid a inter island race or local nasty weather during that key time.
One arm of the SDR is Hampton (blue water yacht club) to Georgetown (chicken harbor). Some even come from the south to leave from Hampton. As you know once you’re east of the stream you often pick up a favorable current making the trip shorter.
Home is a non issue. Leave anytime before hurricane season. Head generally north west. Vary angle so you avoid wind against wave at time of stream entrance . Run the stream. Keep a reasonable distance near an edge so if northerlies start you can quickly get out of the stream. Turn left before your destination to allow for set. Done.

 

[O C Diver]

I consider my boat a coastal cruiser. My definition would be within 200 miles of land, same as my captain's license (see post #9). Further, I wouldn't have a problem with transiting 350 miles between 2 points of land as I would always be within 200 miles of some land.

I would say that a limitation of any vessel distance off shore should be based on how much bad weather it can handle. In other words, how far can I travel in a reasonable time to a safe place. Obviously this is based on the vessel, amount of seas, speed, and how quickly conditions can reach critical. There are places and times of the year where being 30 hours (200 miles at 7 knots) offshore would be acceptable. There are other places and times where 4 hours (28 miles) would be my limit.

Finally offshore distance is really a pointless distance. It should be distance to harbor of refuge or protected land fall.

Ted

 

[BandB]

Wifey B: Oh no, now I have to jump in. Hubby is in a paddleboat race and just fell off but think he had some help from a cheater. :lol: Now Hippo Man has inserted another term, "Seaworthiness." Omfg, a bazillion interpretations.

For real? You had to do that? Bad boy.

For me, that's capable of handling 6-12' seas safely with varying periods. But we have many here who would say 3-4' or so as they tend to think of those as rough seas. I don't even think of 3-4' and only at 5-6' does it cross my mind of whether to go or wait.

So, you did it, now you define seaworthiness? What is it in your mind?

 

[fgarriso]

Near Coastal is 200 NM!

 

[Hippocampus]

Also on a practical level think local geography comes into it at two levels. When coastal there’s a big difference if depths are greater than 8 times (10 times even better) than highest wave height you see. Waves are much less likely to be breaking waves.
The 2 mile depth included in some some definitions of offshore makes sense as well given its impact on weather and wave behavior.
There’s lots of places where you need to head pretty far out to avoid breaking waves, wave reflection and deflection effects. Coast of New Jersey and approaches to the chessie come to mind.

 

[psneeld]

This sounds like survivability or comfort more than independence of land support or safe harbor.


It is always a concern for coastal cruisers...I would think offshore types would just plan accordingly and head for deeper water as conditions deteriorate.

 

[O C Diver]

I've never seen the big draw of way offshore coastal cruising. I can see cruising in the Gulf Stream going North for additional speed or a straight line like crossing the top of the Gulf of Mexico, but otherwise it seems pointless. Guess I don't understand the allure to cruising from San Diego to Cabo 100 miles off the coast.

Ted

 

[BandB]

I've never seen the big draw of way offshore coastal cruising. I can see cruising in the Gulf Stream going North for additional speed or a straight line like crossing the top of the Gulf of Mexico, but otherwise it seems pointless. Guess I don't understand the allure to cruising from San Diego to Cabo 100 miles off the coast.

Ted

Less traffic. Often calmer seas. And you don't just run 90 degrees straight offshore, you take an angled path out and in.

Now, we did not run 100 miles off through that area. Ran about 50 off from Ensenada to Cabo.

There are some examples where it makes far more sense. Fort Lauderdale to Beaufort NC, you shorten the run considerably. Charleston SC to the Abacos, same thing.

We would not go to the trouble of moving 100 nm offshore unless a very long offshore trip. On the other hand we very rarely run 2 or 3 miles offshore as some do, but far more likely to run 10-20 miles off.

 

[Fish53]

Near Coastal is 200 NM!

That's the distance from land of a license limited to near coastal routes.

 

[mvweebles]

We would not go to the trouble of moving 100 nm offshore unless a very long offshore trip. On the other hand we very rarely run 2 or 3 miles offshore as some do, but far more likely to run 10-20 miles off.

I'm one of those who run the Beach Route. Along the Pacific Coast, because of the prevailing NW weather, it cuts-down on the chop considerably, usually close to half. At night, drift further offshore to the 100+ fathom line to avoid crab traps. Weather also moderates at night.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

B makes good practical points but there’s also an appreciation that’s it’s a different experience. Emotionally being offshore is different. The isolation gives you a different way of thinking. Many of your internal stressors disappear. Your interaction with your shipmates is quite different as their emotional internal life changes as well. Have had some of the most open, honest and entertaining conversations while on passage. The sky (particularly at night) and the ocean is different as well. There’s a intimacy with your surroundings I don’t think you get on a ship. Difference between riding on a motorcycle or going through an area behind the windscreen of a SUV with music on and the windows up. Even your activities of daily living change. Wonderful sleep and great appreciation of meals. The daily rituals of passage are reassuring. You know what you need to do without most of the uncertainties you face in a daily land life. Even clearing flying fish isn’t onerous . Our passages have always included a change in bird life, whale sightings and days of porpoises in the bow compression zone. Agree you either like it or have the mindset of boredom and occasional fear. Different boats...,different folks. But please don’t be judgmental OC. As they said to Mikey”try it you may like it”.

 

[psneeld]

Some of it may have to do with career paths.....


and the perception that running alongshore is "stressful".....


so absolutely it's different for different folks.............

 

[O C Diver]

B makes good practical points but there’s also an appreciation that’s it’s a different experience. Emotionally being offshore is different. The isolation gives you a different way of thinking. Many of your internal stressors disappear. Your interaction with your shipmates is quite different as their emotional internal life changes as well. Have had some of the most open, honest and entertaining conversations while on passage. The sky (particularly at night) and the ocean is different as well. There’s a intimacy with your surroundings I don’t think you get on a ship. Difference between riding on a motorcycle or going through an area behind the windscreen of a SUV with music on and the windows up. Even your activities of daily living change. Wonderful sleep and great appreciation of meals. The daily rituals of passage are reassuring. You know what you need to do without most of the uncertainties you face in a daily land life. Even clearing flying fish isn’t onerous . Our passages have always included a change in bird life, whale sightings and days of porpoises in the bow compression zone. Agree you either like it or have the mindset of boredom and occasional fear. Different boats...,different folks. But please don’t be judgmental OC. As they said to Mikey”try it you may like it”.

I spent 35 years running charter boats offshore between Cape May NJ and Morehead city NC to as far out as 70 miles. I have over 3,000 days at sea. So I understand what's out there. At 25 miles offshore, in all but the rarest of circumstances, you're out of sight of land. Seen most all of the marine life you describe and then some. Been in the water with most of it.

I understand for most people with suburban land based lives and jobs, offshore is new, exciting, and maybe a spiritual experience. Probably comparable to mountain climbing or wilderness adventures. While I'm happy to travel to places where I can dive of snorkel with the bigger marine life, cruising across a mostly featureless ocean with occasional interactions, isn't a spiritual experience for me anymore. Also don't miss the occasional beating by mother nature to remind you she gives life, and can take it away.

Ted

 

[psneeld]

If I wanted to see a lot of marine life at sea...I would go back to flying offshore helicopters.... see lots more and no rocky rolly.....

 

[Hippocampus]

Have also been doing it for 35 years. Ain’t been bored yet. Different folks. Unlike what you describe not professionally and always as a interlude. Maybe 2-6 times a year so a welcome break from the day to day so really looked forward to. Also perhaps a bit different experience when average trip is one to weeks and most of the time is >200 m from landfall.

 

[BandB]

B makes good practical points but there’s also an appreciation that’s it’s a different experience. Emotionally being offshore is different. The isolation gives you a different way of thinking. Many of your internal stressors disappear. Your interaction with your shipmates is quite different as their emotional internal life changes as well. Have had some of the most open, honest and entertaining conversations while on passage. The sky (particularly at night) and the ocean is different as well. There’s a intimacy with your surroundings I don’t think you get on a ship. Difference between riding on a motorcycle or going through an area behind the windscreen of a SUV with music on and the windows up. Even your activities of daily living change. Wonderful sleep and great appreciation of meals. The daily rituals of passage are reassuring. You know what you need to do without most of the uncertainties you face in a daily land life. Even clearing flying fish isn’t onerous . Our passages have always included a change in bird life, whale sightings and days of porpoises in the bow compression zone. Agree you either like it or have the mindset of boredom and occasional fear. Different boats...,different folks. But please don’t be judgmental OC. As they said to Mikey”try it you may like it”.

Wifey B: It's you, your boat, your guests, your crew and what you make of it. I've heard some talk about crossing the Atlantic being the most boring thing they'd ever done. Others however point our the beauty of nature to be seen at see, the peacefulness even with seas tossing you around. I remember my first time out when I couldn't see land in any direction. It was eerie, beautiful, contemplative. I've cruised offshore and always found it to be interesting, just waiting for someone to yell, come look at this. Now, we cruise with people that we could have fun with anywhere and that adds a lot. These are the same people we had in our pandemic bubble and spent months with. Every time you just sit back and talk, you think you know everything about the person, but you learn something new. I also like to hear from others what they're feeling at the moment. It's different for each of us based on our background. Nothing will ever top either the first night we were taken out off the view of land, a clear starry night, a full moon, and we made love that night on the flybridge. The night sky, the sounds of the water, the peacefulness. Sipping champagne (we were not captaining any part of that trip), dipping strawberries in chocolate. I can't wait to make love on the flybridge one night half way from Bermuda to the Azores.

I'd urge anyone planning on long crossings to have people with you who you never get tired of or bored with, people who you have fun with.

 

[psneeld]

There is a HUGE difference in being offshore and appreciating it for what it is despite preferring coastal cruising and being "bored"/ not a good companion.

 

[Hippocampus]

All good points and perspectives. I really like anyway I can be be on a boat. So many different ways to do it.