Negotiate or Not

[SILENTKNIGHT]

So my hull survey came back for a 2006 Mainship 34T

here is what came back as to big $$$ issue

1. Flybridge deck soft spot 3sq feet. i plan to negotiate that right away, and prefer Marina/broker to give me estimate 5-7k.

2. Both cutlass bearing are shot, do i ask seller to fix ?
3. All motor mounts on both engines are shot. Do i ask seller to fix?
4. Both dripless shafts have small drip. Do i ask seller to fix?

are these items negotiable or just wear & tear that seller neglected to do.

 

[menzies]

So my hull survey came back for a 2006 Mainship 34T

here is what came back as to big $$$ issue

1. Flybridge deck soft spot 3sq feet. i plan to negotiate that right away, and prefer Marina/broker to give me estimate 5-7k.

2. Both cutlass bearing are shot, do i ask seller to fix ?
3. All motor mounts on both engines are shot. Do i ask seller to fix?
4. Both dripless shafts have small drip. Do i ask seller to fix?

are these items negotiable or just wear & tear that seller neglected to do.

When you say engine mounts are "shot" what exactly is the issue. That really shouldn't be the case in a 2006 boat.

You can ask for anything (though I wouldn't worry too much about the drips), you just have to decide what you will do if they say no.

My approach has always been to get a best professional estimate on the fix, use that to negotiate the new offer, and have it done myself then I know it is done right. And I have any work warranties.

But yes, you should adjust the offer based on findings.

 

[SILENTKNIGHT]

The surveyor said the rubber bottoms are laying right on the hull? and did use feeler gauge test and said the feeler gauge could not pass underneath the rubber . Also he said while under way the entire engine was moving?

 

[menzies]

The surveyor said the rubber bottoms are laying right on the hull? and did use feeler gauge test and said the feeler gauge could not pass underneath the rubber . Also he said while under way the entire engine was moving?

Sounds like all three issues may be linked.

The engine is clearly not aligned. Now the question is what caused the initial mis-alignment. It could have been a hard grounding rather than gradual wear and tear. It sounds like you did a haul as part of the survey - did he see anything else re shaft and props etc.?

 

[skyhawk]

.....

My approach has always been to get a best professional estimate on the fix, use that to negotiate the new offer, and have it done myself then I know it is done right. And I have any work warranties.....

That would generally be my thought process too.... I can choose who does it and how, rather than letting the seller pick the lowest bidder and perhaps shortcutting everything possible......
but the flip side is that while doing the job, other cans-o-worms might be opened.
a situational judgment call....depends how bad you want it vs risk tolerance

 

[jhall767]

How many hours on the engines? Are the motor mounts a known issue with this engine/boat? They don't usually go bad that fast.

Definitely some kind of vibration issue going on. Hard to say if bad motor mounts caused the shaft seal to leak and bad cutlass bearings or the other way around. Possibly bent shafts or heavily damaged props at some point. Any record of replacement/repair?

Leaking shaft seals can usually be moved up or down the shaft slightly. Only issue is if a significant groove has been cut into the shaft and has weakened it. Very rare though.

 

[BandB]

So my hull survey came back for a 2006 Mainship 34T

here is what came back as to big $$$ issue

1. Flybridge deck soft spot 3sq feet. i plan to negotiate that right away, and prefer Marina/broker to give me estimate 5-7k.

2. Both cutlass bearing are shot, do i ask seller to fix ?
3. All motor mounts on both engines are shot. Do i ask seller to fix?
4. Both dripless shafts have small drip. Do i ask seller to fix?

are these items negotiable or just wear & tear that seller neglected to do.

Do NOT get your estimate from the broker. Get it from unbiased experts who are willing to do the work for what they estimate.

I'd want to know as to the soft spot in the flybridge deck, what is under it, how far does the softness go.

As to the small drip from the dripless shafts, I'd figure in a repair cost but not worry too much.

As to the cutlass bearings and motor mounts, I'd really want to know more as there would seem to have been some abuse and/or neglect. Those issues don't just happen, something causes them. I'd worry the problem is greater than identified. I'd insist on them being repaired and a resurvey or a very generous allowance to handle them as identified plus hidden associated issues. It's not normal wear and tear. I would think the sea trial would have suffered. Was the vibration significant or were you even able to have a sea trail?

 

[SILENTKNIGHT]

see my survey notes

see my survey

 

[mvweebles]

That's a pretty long list of repairs. These are not wear/tear items the buyer should expect. I try to be reasonable when purchasing older stuff - if it's a wear item, then you can't reasonably expect it to be replaced with new. Normally, I'd expect a credit of about 50% as a fair and reasonable compromise.

But....as Menzies mentions, issues may be linked. Engine mounts should be inspected every service interval or so - probably never happened on this boat. If that's the case, I'd lean towards having more than the 50% compromise number suggested.

I don't know how common it is, but sometimes getting a shaft coupling off the shaft is damn difficult - hub sometimes has to be cut, sometimes the shaft is buggered. It can take a while to sort out, even with experienced yard work. Cost can add-up. Not sure I'd want to take a simple credit on this one. I might want the yard to do the work, I'd offer to pay the cost of the cutless bearing and new bellows for dripless shaft (assuming PYI).

Peter

 

[SILENTKNIGHT]

alot of vibration at idle....The trial went great. The engines performed at the expected RPM.

 

[Jorgeinseal]

Motor mounts may lead to other issues, survey on prior boat detected broken motor mounts that misaligned the shafts causing additional wear on the gear. We asked for repair allowance, seller refused, we walked.

 

[BandB]

alot of vibration at idle....The trial went great. The engines performed at the expected RPM.

No, actually slightly under, but only slightly.

There are a lot of issues indicating neglect of maintenance. A lot of stress cracks on bridge and swim platform. Thruster issues, low fluids left and right. Rudder/steering actuator hardware issue. Even failing to send in recalled fire extinguishers. Were any maintenance records provided? Horn, bilge alarms. Unable to test A/C. I wonder if the stern thruster ever worked and who installed it. Smoke detectors not operating. Same with carbon monoxide monitors. How long since this boat has been used? Bet a long time. Lots of inoperatives that you shouldn't find on a boat being shown and things like doors that wouldn't close, latch not operable, lights inoperative. Stereos not working. Not at all what you'd expect out of a well maintained, regularly used 14 year old boat.

Whatever dollar amount you're assigning to the survey issues, double it.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Every thing is negotiable!!!

 

[rgano]

On the face of it, the vessel does not appear to have been well cared for. How much did the surveyor NOT find? Are you handy and willing to deal with all that, or do you want a boat ready to go?

 

[Nomad Willy]

OP,
Your job isn’t to dictate to the boat owner what he needs to do to his boat.

Your job is to analyze what needs to be done, see if his price is right and adjust your offer to match the condition of the boat.

A really honest seller has already made the adjustment when he posted the selling price. You asking or demanding he lower it from there is you simply trying to take advantage of him.

Buyers that think their job is to demand all things on a boat be fixed and thereby they calling themselves a jerk. A jerk trying to jerk the seller out of the box of reality.

It should be assumed a seller has considered all the things that need to be repaired and adjusted his price accordingly.

But a dishonest seller is just hoping someone will come along and not notice the issues his boat has and buy it as if the issues don’t exist.

But old boats have issues. That dosn’t mean the buyer should get an old boat paying a new boat price. But on the other hand it’s criminal to “you need to fix this and that” until your giving him the boat.

Buyers need to look the boat over throughly (by whatever means), make a reasonable offer and be prepared to walk. Or go back and check their price. If the price is good then the buyer needs to buy or go look at another boat.

But if the boat stays unsold for too long (that varies) the time spent may have brought the seller to the reality and honesty box. Time to buy.

 

[boathealer]

OP,
Your job isn’t to dictate to the boat owner what he needs to do to his boat.

Your job is to analyze what needs to be done, see if his price is right and adjust your offer to match the condition of the boat.

A really honest seller has already made the adjustment when he posted the selling price. You asking or demanding he lower it from there is you simply trying to take advantage of him.

Buyers that think their job is to demand all things on a boat be fixed and thereby they calling themselves a jerk. A jerk trying to jerk the seller out of the box of reality.

It should be assumed a seller has considered all the things that need to be repaired and adjusted his price accordingly.

But a dishonest seller is just hoping someone will come along and not notice the issues his boat has and buy it as if the issues don’t exist.

But old boats have issues. That dosn’t mean the buyer should get an old boat paying a new boat price. But on the other hand it’s criminal to “you need to fix this and that” until your giving him the boat.

Buyers need to look the boat over throughly (by whatever means), make a reasonable offer and be prepared to walk. Or go back and check their price. If the price is good then the buyer needs to buy or go look at another boat.

But if the boat stays unsold for too long (that varies) the time spent may have brought the seller to the reality and honesty box. Time to buy.

A boat is only worth an amount that YOU are willing to pay for it. What would a boat like that be worth TO YOU? ------ In wherever you currently are in your financial and emotional life and in whatever condition it is currently in?

Market-shmarket. Forget BUC, forget NADA - its a bunch of data, IN THE PAST, that gives folks a starting point for creating an ad price.

If having a specific boat is worth X to you, then pay it. If not, and you still like the boat, make an offer of what you are WILLING TO PAY after carefully assessing condition and what YOU would want to fix to make the boat acceptable to YOU. Offer what it is worth TO YOU. Period.

I have bought a lot of boats at *FAR* below "asking price" because I offered a price of what that boat was worth TO ME, at that time, and apparently I was the only one who did.

I have also been laughed at (out loud) for offers - but in those instances, I didn't pay for a boat that was not worth what I was willing to pay at the time. I didn't overspend or sacrifice our home budget because the "market" said I should pay more. No remorse.

Plain and simple - the "market" is only what any one person views as a value, and is willing to pay.

---
Just my $0.02

 

[SoWhat]

Mfgr may have installed inadequate mounts or designer spec'd them wrong. Anything labeled 'safety' will have to be repaired before insurance co will bind policy. Everything is negotiable. I would meet with qualified marine repair service, obtain some ballpark estimates, and proceed from there.

 

[SILENTKNIGHT]

Original price was 148K, I offered 130k before survey. Now im thinking 120K .

 

[rgano]

OP,
Your job isn’t to dictate to the boat owner what he needs to do to his boat.

Your job is to analyze what needs to be done, see if his price is right and adjust your offer to match the condition of the boat.

A really honest seller has already made the adjustment when he posted the selling price. You asking or demanding he lower it from there is you simply trying to take advantage of him.

Plenty of people involved in buying and selling used boats do not have a truly good handle on either the condition or proper pricing for the vessels concerned, try as they might. So the customer has no real idea of whether the seller is "honest" or not. More appropriate, at least in this capitalistic society, is to assume the seller, while possibly honest, wants the best possible price for his wares leaving the buy to beware.

 

[menzies]

Original price was 148K, I offered 130k before survey. Now im thinking 120K .

Don't just go in with the amount, assign dollars to the work, plus any contingency. Also have a final number in your head, one which if you don't get to you are prepared to walk.

The toughest part is walking after you have sunk momey into the survey, but another boat is out there for you.

 

[mvweebles]

Original price was 148K, I offered 130k before survey. Now im thinking 120K .

Curious how you arrived at market value for this boat? Nothing implied - I don't know the market for these, but they are a good looking boat in a nice size range. Seem to have a decent following. I would think resale would be strong, but I don't know what 'strong' is for this boat. What does your market intelligence tell you?

BTW - I agree with other opinions on deferred maintenance. My quick glance through it looked like it had a long list of stuff that had been let go. What was your impression when you were aboard?

Peter

 

[jhall767]

Original price was 148K, I offered 130k before survey. Now im thinking 120K .

As someone said the value is what it's worth to you. I would say that's less money than it may take to get it fixed. At a minimum you are talking pull the shafts and props and have them checked/reconditioned. New engine mounts. New cutlass bearings. New shaft seals.

Three possibilities;

1) The seller may not have known about the engine/shaft issues. If not then the price hasn't been reduced to reflect it.
2) The seller might have thought something was not right but didn't know.
3) The seller has already gotten a quote to fix it or worse yet been trying to fix it and failed. Hoping to sell without fixing.

Place you bets now....

I think most people would correct the motor mount issue if they knew about it prior to listing or running the boat.

I'd probably come back with a lower offer and express my concern that I don't know how engine mounts break or how much they cost to have fixed.

 

[BruceK]

...I don't know how common it is, but sometimes getting a shaft coupling off the shaft is damn difficult - hub sometimes has to be cut, sometimes the shaft is buggered. It can take a while to sort out, even with experienced yard work. Cost can add-up. Not sure I'd want to take a simple credit on this one. I might want the yard to do the work, I'd offer to pay the cost of the cutless bearing and new bellows for dripless shaft (assuming PYI).

Peter

The Survey revealed running gear/engine mount defects. They have to be fixed, and with an 800 hour boat, it`s on the seller. Question is, how is it done, ie, seller does it, or buyer gets a price reduction.
I`d be surprised if 10K covers it. Once you start dismantling it`s the strawberry punnet syndrome, deeper you go, worse it gets.
I`ve recently done the rudder bearings, cutlass bearings, props, and shaft repairs, plus reinforcing the rudder rack frame thought to have created the rudder issues. It wasn`t cheap,again on an 800 hour boat. No engine mount issues.
Because of the defects/cost uncertainties I suggest asking the seller to fix it. Then you risk the seller doing a cheap half hearted job. So you have to require the seller to allow inspection checks, details of what is found as it is found, and what is/was done to correct it. I once tried that with a seller who offered to repair,they didn`t like the checks or having to do the work to a specified standard, red lights flashed, I walked.

 

[PM]

Price seems high for a 15 year old mainship with "issues"

just saying..

pete

 

[rgano]

OK, having gone through the survey, I stand by my very first post on this boat. If this vessel were bought as is and the new owner asked me to deliver it down the bay on a nice day, I'd demur. It's a fixer-upper sure enough, and with the right care will be ok. Hope the price is really good because there will be bunches of previous owner screw-ups yet to find if this survey is any indicator.

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

Don't buy with your heart, buy with your head. I have see too many folks buy based on their emotions and get stuck with a lemon with no lemonade.

 

[johnma]

I have a 2003 390 with similar hours. As I read through your survey and comparing the issues with what I know about my boat I can say that this is a lot of issues for a 15 year old Mainship. I have no issues with cutlass bearing, motor mounts, dripless coupling, soft spots, etc.
things like stress cracks are somewhat normal, ( I have some). Things like carbon monoxide detectors don’t last forever. I’ve had to replace 2 of the 3 on my boat.
John

 

[OldDan1943]

Original price was 148K, I offered 130k before survey. Now im thinking 120K .

Your money. What do you think?
Personally, unless I knew there was a pot of gold hidden in the bilge, I'd walk.

 

[Nomad Willy]

It’s the same w houses.
Most people are at least a little dishonest.
Find out what it’s worth and make him an offer .. that will make him honest .. or a thing of the past.

 

[Juliet 15]

I absolutely would walk away unless the seller dropped it to a price that made it a steal, something below 100k. There's a TON of things wrong you and your surveyor are unaware of. My concern with what we do know is the possibility of some kind of un-repaired underwater strike.
-Prematurely worn cutlass bearings
-Engine motion visible
-Leaking "dripless" shaft seals
-Prematurely failed engine mounts.

Those things spell a lot of money and time, aside from the laundry list of other items the surveyor found. There are other boats available that people have loved and cared for. My 2 cents: Wait for one.