Hi all. I have a 1982 Albin 40 DC. The aft port and stbd cleats used to be mounted to the deck but now that I’ve removed the teak and will be applying nonskid, I’d like to change the cleat location from the deck to the bulwarks like how Grand Banks cleats are located. The cleat has a square stainless plate that was installed underneath that I will attempt to reinstall, then I’ll bed everything with sika 295. Is this a dumb idea? With the bulwarks be able to handle the load the cleat will be applying to it? Below is a crappy picture to give somewhat of an idea.
New Cleat Location
- Thread starter SeaBoy
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AlanT
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Based solely on the picture you attached I doubt that there is enough flat width to the interior surface of the bulwarks to successfully use a backing plate. A word of caution on using Sika between the backing plate and the underside of the bulwark.
Please read this extract from my sailing blog: "The cleats are robust and are through-bolted with backing plates through two inches of solid fibreglass so my first question was "how did they weaken?" On disassembly I found that the backing plates had been slathered with sikaflex or a similar product on installation. Consequently there was some 'cushion' in the fitting and although the cleat bolts were tight, this cushioning effect allowed a tiny amount of lateral movement in the cleat under severe load."
If you want to read the entire post it is about 3/4 way down this page:
Moonstruck Hylas Yacht European Modifications
jleonard
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I had an 83 Albin 40. I would NOT put the cleats there. The fiberglass is very thin, and I would not trust them.
Put them back on the deck.
Put them back on the deck.
Some discussion and photos of this issue here: https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/cleat-failure-your-experience-46172.html
Search for other examples, as I recall another recent discussion of a Hawse cleat failure, again with photos.
Search for other examples, as I recall another recent discussion of a Hawse cleat failure, again with photos.
psneeld
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I had a 1988 40" Albin and Jay is right about the bulwarks being thin.
I kept the stern cleats on deck but moved the mid ship cleats to the bulwarks right next to the hawse hole.
Because of the inaccessibility to the innards to get a backing plate in there and or nuts on bolts...I used a 3 foot piece if pressure treated 2X4 slathered with 5200 and rammed it up in there. To hold it, I could see it was in place from the 4 holes I already drilled in the bulwark for the 4 screws I used. Three foot of 2X4 5200ed in place probably exceeded even the bolts in sheer... the weakest issue with cleat fasteners is usually in some sort of tension or working from being loose.
I then just inserted the screws to hold it in place. Because the only line angle that cleat could be used for would put the bolts/backing in sheer...I felt safe that any spring line would probably break before the bolts/backing or chafe through long before all four eventually broke progressively.
I went without midship cleats for probably 4 years before I thought they would be a good idea and thought of this way of installing them. They were a real toe crusher on the narrow side decks and that's why they disappeared for 4 years or so.
If I really needed a spring before I replaced the midships...I just used one from the forward or aft cleats (midships rarely a necessity). OR....if hard pressed...I would just tie the spring around one of my fender board 2X4s and pull it up tight to the hawsehole.
If you wanted to try some home made hawse hole cleats without anything on deck and without replacing the whole assembly already there.... you could braze some bronze bar to the inside ring. The weak spot I say was the rivets holding the innner and outer pieces.
If I tried something like that...I would definitely try some destructive testing before I consider them "good to go".
I kept the stern cleats on deck but moved the mid ship cleats to the bulwarks right next to the hawse hole.
Because of the inaccessibility to the innards to get a backing plate in there and or nuts on bolts...I used a 3 foot piece if pressure treated 2X4 slathered with 5200 and rammed it up in there. To hold it, I could see it was in place from the 4 holes I already drilled in the bulwark for the 4 screws I used. Three foot of 2X4 5200ed in place probably exceeded even the bolts in sheer... the weakest issue with cleat fasteners is usually in some sort of tension or working from being loose.
I then just inserted the screws to hold it in place. Because the only line angle that cleat could be used for would put the bolts/backing in sheer...I felt safe that any spring line would probably break before the bolts/backing or chafe through long before all four eventually broke progressively.
I went without midship cleats for probably 4 years before I thought they would be a good idea and thought of this way of installing them. They were a real toe crusher on the narrow side decks and that's why they disappeared for 4 years or so.
If I really needed a spring before I replaced the midships...I just used one from the forward or aft cleats (midships rarely a necessity). OR....if hard pressed...I would just tie the spring around one of my fender board 2X4s and pull it up tight to the hawsehole.
If you wanted to try some home made hawse hole cleats without anything on deck and without replacing the whole assembly already there.... you could braze some bronze bar to the inside ring. The weak spot I say was the rivets holding the innner and outer pieces.
If I tried something like that...I would definitely try some destructive testing before I consider them "good to go".
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Comodave
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Sika 295 UV would not be the Sika product that I would use in this application anyway. It is made for plastics and acrylics. If you use a caulk there I would use Sika 291. But for backing plates I use thickened epoxy.
psneeld
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Not sure what you are getting at with the Gand Banks. I Don't know what is in their bulwarks. Then again I can't be sure what you have in yours.
You could use backing plates but check your access before jumping in even with only ideas.
Comodave
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You may find that the bulwark is hollow. Check to make sure before proceeding. If you through bolt it may crush if it is hollow.
LOL
I now have a toe that bends at an odd angle and permanently, having been broken on the cleat that is on my bulwarks, beside the midship hawse. Yes, I have known its location for many years, have hooked my sandal on it hundreds of times, and have bashed my toe on it many times, just not hard enough to do any damage until this one time. I don't recall ever hitting it with my ankle, though it is at ankle height.
I agree that an on deck cleat at that location would be worse.
psneeld
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If it was like mine (bet it is) you will find it is barely 1.5-2 inches wide inside, depending where you select as it is not a finished area and there are folds of hardened glass that make access all but impossible.
As I posted, getting a backing plate and nuts/washers in there and tightened were not my cup of tea.
And usually I am fanatical about putting things where they belong even if difficult.
psneeld
Guru
If you reuse the stock cleats midship, even on the bulwark the catch your ankle, foot top or even worse, your shoe lace which I gotta say almost had me fall a couple times, quite possibly overboard.
The stern cleats should be fine except for access behind the bulwark and won'tcha need 4? One for each stern hawse hole?
AlanT
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Thinking laterally there are hawse fittings that incorporate a cleat. You could replace one or both of your hawse fittings with that instead. I have these on my boat. They are great and keep lines off the deck which is an added plus.
This pic is of one for sale on ebay this week at $119 New Old Stock, in bronze (chrome plated bronze)
This pic is of one for sale on ebay this week at $119 New Old Stock, in bronze (chrome plated bronze)
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Comodave
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I have never been a big fan of those. I have seen them fold a horn under strain and it can be tough to put 2 lines on them.
mvweebles
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Why not put a clear on the caprail? This one from Buck Algonquin has tapped holes so can use threaded rod for any thickness (McMaster has 316 all thread)? I realize the hawse holes would need to be patched, but not a fan of feeding docklines through them
https://www.propellerdepot.com/70cobsstud100-tapped-cleats-round-footprint
Peter
https://www.propellerdepot.com/70cobsstud100-tapped-cleats-round-footprint
Peter
Because my boat is pretty much a restoration project (which means now I’m broke) I still want to use the original cleat. I have epoxy that I can thicken and my fellow liveaboard neighbor has stainless plate I can use for backing. My question is, is 3/8” fiberglass with a 12” plate mounted with thicken epoxy, enough to take the load my dock lines will be applying?
mvweebles
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Gotcha. Well, I'll go counter the prevailing and say that you're probably okay with mounting to bulkwark with a decent backing plate. There is quite a bit of form-structure to the fiberglass there and if you're in storm conditions or trying to tow something largish, you'll likely rip-out your hawse holes first anyway and saw through the fiberglass. Rare, but it happens.
I simply do not understand why so many boat builders go through such gyrations to secure a line. Fairleads (including hawse pipes) on boats in this class should be a last resort, not a first one.
Peter
I simply do not understand why so many boat builders go through such gyrations to secure a line. Fairleads (including hawse pipes) on boats in this class should be a last resort, not a first one.
Peter
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May be an option. Bulwarks are solid. Have snapped dock lines during long, heavy surging but no issues with cleats. We have two cleats on each side, midship. Used mostly for springs. For and aft cleats are deck mounted.
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