To box or not to box? That is the battery question.

[mncruiser]

I know the correct answer is to put batteries in a box...but let me explain. Picture first:

These are the two 8D house batteries in the boat I just bought, a 2001 Mainship 390, single Yanmar 300. The surveyor correctly called out these should be in a box. He said they weren't secure, but they are in trays and strapped down. I agree they should be in a box.

I'm moving the boat from Charlevoix, Michigan (Lake Michigan) to Bayfield, Wisconsin (Lake Superior) in early June. This is about a 3 day trip.

Long term I don't really want FLA batteries. These two were new in June of 2019, only used until September of 2019. The boat has been in heated storage from September of 2019 until present day. They are likely in good shape. The boat has a 4D FLA in a box for starting, and the generator has its own battery as well. Questions:

1. Should I do the voyage as-is (^pic) or spend $189 on a Noco battery box and give them a home? I'm hesitant as I *think* this not my long term setup. But it won't be that much effort, I hope. And maybe these in a box are a good solution for a few years? I'm not sure.

2. What would I likely replace these with? Assume the capacity I have is what I need. 4x Group 31 AGM's? Something else I'm not thinking about?

I am defaulting to AGM's, and I will not be cruising full-time, this will be a seasonal May-Sept boat on the Great Lakes. I know there are high end solutions, LiPo, Firefly....stuff I don't know about, not sure I need them. There is currently no inverter, and initially I have no plans for one.

I know I'm being vague and some may say careless, but really just looking for general direction and things I'm not thinking of.

Thanks!

 

[rslifkin]

AGMs don't need a box, just solid mounting. For FLA, a box is a good idea, but I think ABYC may accept a liquid tight tray of sufficient depth as long as the battery is mounted securely.

Personally, I have all AGMs. My start batteries are in boxes, but the house bank isn't, just based on how it was most practical to mount them in the desired spot.

 

[Comodave]

One thing to think about is what does your insurance company say. They may require you to fix all the defects the surveyor calls out, maybe not. It depends on the company. Some will require safety defects be fixed some may require all of them fixed and some may not care. But be careful if they say you have X number of days to fix them and you say you fixed them and actually did not fix the defects. If you have a related claim you may be denied. As to whether to put them in boxes if the insurance company does not care, that is a decision you must make. It will be a PITA to do it since they will weigh about 150 pounds and you will have to lift them up over the side of the box. IMO if the insurance company says fix the defects, I would go ahead and put in the AGMs now just so I didn’t have to lift the 8Ds more than once, and that once would be to get them out of the boat. If you are going to do it at some point might as well do it now if it is in you current budget.

 

[DDW]

I would not hesitate to do that voyage with them as is, provided the insurance company doesn't object. For the future, I'd consider one of the sizes of 6V golf cart batteries as a replacement. You can get them in three sizes, all the same footprint, different heights, 200, 300, and 400 AH. The 200 and 300 can be moved by humans, the 400 is similar to the 8D in that weight lifters are required. I just removed three 4D batteries - already too big for humans - and replaced them with four of the 300 AH golf cart AGMs. The footprint was similar to one 4D battery box. I did put them in boxes as I found ones that took very little extra space, but would have done without if I'd not found boxes that were a good match. The ones I used were from Century Plastics in Canada.

 

[HopCar]

I think you’re in good shape.
Test the batteries to be sure they are good.
Make sure they can’t move.
Cover the terminals so a dropped tool can’t short across them
When you do replace the batteries, for your back’s sake, get smaller batteries!
When I went to AGM, I was able to mount them on trays, on their side, outboard of the outer stringers. That used a lot of what had been wasted space and freed up access to the engine.

 

[mncruiser]

One thing to think about is what does your insurance company say. They may require you to fix all the defects the surveyor calls out, maybe not. It depends on the company. Some will require safety defects be fixed some may require all of them fixed and some may not care. But be careful if they say you have X number of days to fix them and you say you fixed them and actually did not fix the defects. If you have a related claim you may be denied. As to whether to put them in boxes if the insurance company does not care, that is a decision you must make. It will be a PITA to do it since they will weigh about 150 pounds and you will have to lift them up over the side of the box. IMO if the insurance company says fix the defects, I would go ahead and put in the AGMs now just so I didn’t have to lift the 8Ds more than once, and that once would be to get them out of the boat. If you are going to do it at some point might as well do it now if it is in you current budget.

Great points Dave. I’ve got 25 days to correct my list after binding coverage. The batteries are on the list. Coverage is not bound yet. Will be after sea trial very soon.

My challenge is doing this away from my home port before the voyage home. I could potentially bring a new solution with me (new whatever AGM’s) but would be rushed to install in the 3 days I have planned for replacing other minor items and shakedown, before my hired captain shows up and it’s time to go.

Every time I rush I regret it. Every single time!

Making changes maybe isn’t the best idea before my trip….maybe I don’t even do the box? Voyage as-is and deal with it when I don’t have to go anywhere?

I can lift a lot, but I’m not 18 year old Marine me anymore, and I think I already hate the size of those and have never even moved one.

I do like the idea of one move and that’s out!

Budget is not an issue, but I don’t want to be wasteful. If I can spend $189 on a box and be good for a few years, maybe I do that? But I really liked when I went to AGM’s on the last boat. Just trouble free.

Truth be told when I saw those 8D’s my first thought was “they gone”!!

 

[Comodave]

Are you looking at 2 individual boxes or one box for both batteries? One box may be a problem since it looks like a pole in between the batteries.

 

[rslifkin]

The big l16 6 volts aren't nearly as bad as moving an 8d. They're a good 30 lbs lighter, plus the size leads to the handles being spaced well to shoulders, so better leverage for lifting.

 

[mncruiser]

Are you looking at 2 individual boxes or one box for both batteries? One box may be a problem since it looks like a pole in between the batteries.

See what happens when I rush? Yep, there’s a pole there.

I owe you!

 

[mncruiser]

And thank you all for the responses!

 

[KnotYet]

You could simply remove the batteries and do the trip without them.
Bring along portable lights, entertainment and an ice chest.
When you get where you're going you can take the time you need to redesign.

Obviously if these power a thruster, electric head or other system you could use a
jump pack or a porta-potty. On my boat I always carried a charged Optima just in case.
A set of high quality jumper cables saved the day on more than one occasion!

 

[STB]

As long as the batteries are solidly strapped down to something solid, and you are within the insurance time limit, I wouldn't hesitate to take a trip that way.

At my convenience within the time limit, I'd box them. It won't take long or much money. Use a come along and a couple pieces of wood, if needed.

I wouldn't replace perfectly good, relatively new batteries on a new to me boat.

I'd take as much of the remaining lifetime of those batteries as needed to learn the boat, find the gremlins, and set priorities. As I learn a boat, mine always change. If you'd look at my maintenance log, you'll see some of the things I did very early were much lower priority than those things I did with urgency later upon learning the boat. My wallet would have liked it better if I didn't so some things I ended up redoing differently, didn't do some things that seemed obvious at the time, but didn't really matter, etc.

For the couple hours of time and ~$300 of it takes to box those batteries, you can enjoy delaying replacing them for years if need be as your priorities and understanding of what you want evolves as you learn the boat and you learn more about how you use it and what you want.

 

[tiltrider1]

Batteries do not need to be boxed. They need to be secured to prevent movement and the terminals need to be covered. If the batteries are secured from movement I would use duct tape and a plastic bag to cover the terminals. Don’t cover the vents. If the batteries are not secured I would place a Rubbermaid container over the top of the battery and strap it to the floor.

This would pass as having corrected the problem however I would not consider it a permanent fix.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. mn. Lacking anything specifically stating "a box" in the AYBC suggestions I think Mr. t has provided the solution.

 

[STB]

Well...I'd want batteries to be secured from movement, protected from contact to their terminals, e.g. a dropped wrench, and able to contain a fluid leakage, spill, or explosion.

I'd once thought a tray that could contain leakage was good enough. Then, between the time my boat was sea trialed and I first visited it as my own, a battery exploded. The resulting mess, which would have been devastating had I been down there when it happened, caused me to box the batteries without a moment's delay.

I also wouldn't quite count on duct tape or plastic bags. These solutions tend to work well...until they don't. And, that's when I drop the wrench.

 

[Comodave]

Batteries do not need to be boxed. They need to be secured to prevent movement and the terminals need to be covered. If the batteries are secured from movement I would use duct tape and a plastic bag to cover the terminals. Don’t cover the vents. If the batteries are not secured I would place a Rubbermaid container over the top of the battery and strap it to the floor.

This would pass as having corrected the problem however I would not consider it a permanent fix.

The reason for a box is to contain acid if the case gets cracked. His terminals, the positive anyway, are covered and only the positive has to be covered but I like both covered just in case. Covering the top of the batteries will not correct the lack of a box as far as the insurance company is concerned. Surveyor called for a box and covering the top will not meet that need.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. gk. You raise very valid points. I suppose it's the risk factor. I can appreciate Mr. mn's desire to do repairs in his home port. It appears to me, in spite of the lack of a "box", the installation isn't too bad. A tad messy to my eye but not unsafe IMO.
I would do the 3 day delivery trip.

 

[STB]

Hey RY,

I am 100% with you on that. As long as they are strapped down for reals, I wouldn't hesitate to do the delivery as is. Not one bit.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
The point that hasn't been raised is what does AYBC say because that's what the surveyor should be basing his recommendations on.
Mr. C. I understand and agree with the reasoning behind battery boxes but Mr. mn simply wants to make a 3 day delivery trip after which time he will rectify his current situation, at his leisure.
This is just another example of "hidden" AYBC suggestions IMO.


Edit: Just re-read my own post..."current situation"....SOOO sorry about that one. Groan.

 

[Comodave]

I am not saying not to make the trip as is, IF he can do it within the 25 day window and then fix it before the window closes.

 

[tiltrider1]

The OP was clear, he wanted a temporary solution to get home to make proper repairs. Doing nothing but saying you are operating under the 25 day rule is not safe. I offered a temporary solution that is safe and would meet ABYC standards. I was clear that it was not an acceptable permanent solution.

I was not asked what a proper permanent solution should be. I am also sure the OP is not full understanding the insurance requirements. Any deficiency that is deemed an item of seaworthiness must be addressed before a trip. Non seaworthy items have a grace period. I also doubt it says he has to follow the surveyors recommendation. It probably says the surveyor’s items must be addressed.

 

[mncruiser]

I am also sure the OP is not full understanding the insurance requirements. Any deficiency that is deemed an item of seaworthiness must be addressed before a trip. Non seaworthy items have a grace period. I also doubt it says he has to follow the surveyors recommendation. It probably says the surveyor’s items must be addressed.

Thanks for the reply. The insurance thing is pretty interesting. On the survey there are 3 lists. 1- Safety deficiencies 2- Deficiencies needing attention 3- Recommendations and maintenance items.

List 1 and 2 are no brainers and will be fixed before I leave a dock. List 3 includes the batteries, and is not as defined.

The insurance company said ALL items must be addressed. But here are a few examples of list 3 items:

"Minor wear noted on bottom paint in several locations. Continue to monitor and re-apply as owner sees fit"

" The shower sump box is dirty. Clean it as the owner sees fit"

I asked for detail on their "ALL" statement and the reply was "ALL". I monitor the bottom paint, it is fine. I prefer a smelly, dirty shower sump box, as long as it works, and I don't see fit to clean it. List satisfied right?

My agent says as long as I use common sense and fill out their form before day 25, keep receipts and documentation of the work performed, I'm good.

I guess I see why the insurance company has to say "ALL". To expect them to evaluate each survey in detail and make specific recommendations is probably unrealistic.

I'm going to correct the battery issues, just probably not before I get it home. I'll cover the terminals, double check the strapping, maybe add some wire across the top to tie them down tighter? Just kidding, I'll use non-metallic straps.

Thank you all for your thoughts. Speaking of battery issues, this picture is from my buddy Kevin here in MN. He asked his brother-in-law to clean the storage shed up at the cabin. He did a great job. Check out his work and comment when you see it:

 

[SteveK]

Metal jack laying over a battery looks a bit rusty should be oiled so it is ready when needed. That pink styro insulation must go immediately as it can catch fire by spontaneous combustion and then all those gas cans would melt.

 

[SteveK]

"a 2001 Mainship 390"
The battery issue has only become an issue in the past year or so. "ALL" to be remedied is also new. The surveyor has not done anything differently in 20 years on this boat with those batteries as they are because as they are was very common, and may still be.
The insurance underwriters are paying closer attention. ABYC has become the last word, the surveyor, a god. We are now paying the price for the sins of our fathers.
You want insurance, fix it ALL. Then get ready for a new list the next time when nothing has changed.

My new to me boat came with many past surveys. I read them and can see why 'ALL' needs to be done when the same suggestion is repeated yet nothing was done. If the little stuff is left undone, what lies past that becomes the question. The age of a boat matters less than the due diligence of the insured.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. mn. I think Kevin got shortchanged on a BIL. Anyone can see that the tow strap is not properly coiled and presents a tripping hazard. I'm also surprised the BIL didn't leave the caps off the gas cans so they could air out. Good grief!

 

[amdavis]

Also notice what looks like a jack stand on shelf at right could slide off and dislodge valve on propane tank. Maybe use said tow strap to secure?

 

[Jonboy108]

Try this boys and girls

the Code of Federal Regulations pertaining to marine battery installation:
§ 183.420 Batteries.
(a) Each installed battery must not move more than one inch in any direc- tion when a pulling force of 90 pounds or twice the battery weight, whichever is less, is applied through the center of gravity of the battery as follows:
(1) Vertically for a duration of one minute.
(2) Horizontally and parallel to the boat’s center line for a duration of one minute fore and one minute aft.
(3) Horizontally and perpendicular to the boat’s center line for a duration of one minute to starboard and one minute to port.
(b) Each battery must be installed so that metallic objects cannot come in contact with the ungrounded battery terminals.
(c) Each metallic fuel line and fuel system component within 12 inches and above the horizontal plane of the bat- tery top surface as installed must be shielded with dielectric material.
(d) Each battery must not be directly above or below a fuel tank, fuel filter, or fitting in a fuel line.
(e) A vent system or other means must be provided to permit the dis- charge from the boat of hydrogen gas released by the battery.
(f) [Reserved]
(g) Each battery terminal connector must not depend on spring tension for its mechanical connection to the ter- minal.
[CGD 73–217, 42 FR 5944, Jan. 31, 1977, as amended by CGD 81–092, 48 FR 55736, Dec. 15, 1983]

My comment: the poorly placed shields over the positive terminals are insufficient; i wouldn't trust them to shield the terminals per the regs. Also, whether to box or not to box the batteries- or what course of action to take prior to trip: I believe in the "black box theory" that whenever you use best practices on your boat; be it over engineering battery installation, or performing maintenance on systems, etc., you put "good will" into a black box. Your boat will absorb that good will and will sometimes get you through a sticky spot when maybe you shouldn't have made it. You want to keep your black box full of good will, ie., good maintenance, prudent practices, practicing forehandedness, being ready for whatever emergency, rather than trying to get away with something that is sub par.

 

[Nautica]

Agreed

 

[OldDan1943]

He asked his brother-in-law to clean the storage shed up at the cabin. He did a great job. Check out his work and comment when you see it:

IMO, it's a dangerous accident waiting to happen.

 

[Caballero II]

FLA? Sheesh!!!

I know the correct answer is to put batteries in a box...but let me explain. Picture first:

These are the two 8D house batteries in the boat I just bought, a 2001 Mainship 390, single Yanmar 300. The surveyor correctly called out these should be in a box. He said they weren't secure, but they are in trays and strapped down. I agree they should be in a box.

I'm moving the boat from Charlevoix, Michigan (Lake Michigan) to Bayfield, Wisconsin (Lake Superior) in early June. This is about a 3 day trip.

Long term I don't really want FLA batteries. These two were new in June of 2019, only used until September of 2019. The boat has been in heated storage from September of 2019 until present day. They are likely in good shape. The boat has a 4D FLA in a box for starting, and the generator has its own battery as well. Questions:

1. Should I do the voyage as-is (^pic) or spend $189 on a Noco battery box and give them a home? I'm hesitant as I *think* this not my long term setup. But it won't be that much effort, I hope. And maybe these in a box are a good solution for a few years? I'm not sure.

2. What would I likely replace these with? Assume the capacity I have is what I need. 4x Group 31 AGM's? Something else I'm not thinking about?

I am defaulting to AGM's, and I will not be cruising full-time, this will be a seasonal May-Sept boat on the Great Lakes. I know there are high end solutions, LiPo, Firefly....stuff I don't know about, not sure I need them. There is currently no inverter, and initially I have no plans for one.

I know I'm being vague and some may say careless, but really just looking for general direction and things I'm not thinking of.

Thanks!