High bilge alarm! & Whale fresh water connectors

[slowgoesit]

A few weeks ago, there was a thread discussing whether or not to use dock water under pressure for fresh water that didn't use your on-board tanks, nor your on-board fresh water pump.

My concern, and that of several other posters was that if you used your on-board water, and you had a failure of an on-board water line, or fitting, the worst that would happen was that you would dump all your fresh water into the bilge.
Move on to using fresh water supplied to the boat through a fitting, and using dock pressure to supply your water needs. Fitting fails, and your boat starts filling up with a supply of water that is limited only by how much water your marina municipal water company is able to supply . . . which is in every case MORE than is necessary to sink your boat, and in many cases, especially with our current dock with 80 psi of water pressure, and a 4” line supplying water, is more than our automatic bilge pumps could possibly keep ahead of! The water would come in faster than we could remove it.

So, 4 days ago, my wife wakes me up at 0558 and asks, “What is that sound?” I groggily come to my senses, and tell here, “That is the high water bilge alarm”! I’m now wide awake, and running up to the pilot house, where the light that is illuminated for the engine room compartment. I silence the alarm, switch on the bilge pump, and head to the engine room, where I find water all over the place, and 300 gallons of fresh water in the bilge. Not a big deal, and the bilge pump deals with it in about 15 minutes.

So, now to failure that led to the water escaping . . . The cold water supply line to the forward 12 gallon water heater has popped out of the fitting on the water heater.
The brand of the fitting was Whale. And a 15mm water line. No tension on the line. It was securely fasted to a bulkhead, properly seated from all appearances, it just popped out, allowing our on-board pump to pump 300 gallons of fresh water, which was everything that was in the tank, all over the fwd part of the ER, and into the bilge. . . . Sooooo, I looked over the fitting, it appeared that the guts of the fitting, o-ring, etc, was gone, probably somewhere in the bilge. I measured how much the line could go into the fitting, reseated it, it went in the correct distance, and was in just as far as it was prior to popping out . . . . Pressure is provided by an on-board fresh water pump, which cannot put out anything like the amount of pressure that should cause the Whale fitting to fail.

I couldn’t locate any spare fittings on the boat, so priced them on line. Anywhere from $22.99 to 32.99 . . . for ONE fitting! And apparently not available anywhere locally, so must buy on line. . . . . And I can’t find a source locally for the pipe . . . and no one is shipping due to cost . . . Granted, I didn’t look exhaustively, only spend 30 minutes or so . . . so I went down to the spares bins, found a brass fitting, 1/2” npt male on one end, 1/2” barb on the other. I screwed the npt end into the valve on the water heater, then slightly heated the end of the water line with a heat gun, slipped it over the barbed end of the fitting, installed a marine hose clamp, Viola, we’ve got fresh water again. . . .

First takeaway: Since we were on the boat, and the maximum possible spillage was 350 gallons from the forward water tank, no lasting harm occurred, or could have occurred, even if we hadn’t been on the boat. However if we had been hooked up to dock water, and not on the boat, we could have sunk our boat . . . . Food for thought. (Yes, I know that everyone says they turn off the water EVERY TIME they leave the boat, and that NO ONE would accidentally turn the water back on . . . but I wouldn’t be willing to bet my boat on that.)

Second takeaway: I now have added to the list of boat upgrades/repairs, to replace every bit of whale pipe and connectors on the boat with Pex, using SS crimp fittings instead of Whale fittings, which I will never trust again.

Third takeaway: I need a louder high water bilge alarm.
p { margin-bottom: 0.1in; line-height: 120% }So a few weeks ago, there was a thread relating to whether or not to use dock water under pressure for fresh water that didn't use your onboard tanks, nor your onboard fresh water pump. My concern, and that of several other posters was that if you used your onboard water, and you had a failure

 

[ksanders]

Great post!

A couple of thoughts.

First and foremost is that you are entirely correct in that dock water can sink your boat if a fitting fails, whereas a water tank cannot.

Regarding Whale fittings and pipe. These are found on Many different brands of boats with thousands or even tens of thousands of boats using this plumbing system quite safely.

My opinion is that you simply had a failure and that there is no need replace all your pipe and fittings.

I have Whale pipe and fittings on my boat. I keep a good selection of fittings and pipe onboard, not because I've had failures, but because I have had several projects requiring them.

Locally in the USA you will find whale fittings in stock at West Marine. You will not find them at home or plumbing stores because they are pretty marine industry specific.

 

[ScottC]

I agree with ksanders - that what you experienced was likely a failure due to possibly a single defective fitting. I would not change out my entire plumbing system because of this. My boat is completely plumbed with Whale pipe and fittings and I've never had a problem or drip in 11 years. But then, my risk is limited to <100 gallons.

I do not have a city-water connection either, but if I did, I would certainly build into my boat-departure routine a step to shut it off...just like I lock the door. I agree with you about not wanting to bet my boat on somebody NOT turning the water supply at the dock on again, however. Could you put the shutoff on the boat-end of the hose, perhaps? ...and shut it off there AND on the dock side as well?


You could also consider an alarm system with an app that will receive an alert if there is high water to limit your risk for the odd time when you've forgotten to shut off the water supply.

 

[Bacchus]

"That is the high water bilge alarm”! I’m now wide awake, and running up to the pilot house, where the light that is illuminated for the engine room compartment. I silence the alarm, switch on the bilge pump, and head to the engine room, where I find water all over the place, and 300 gallons of fresh water in the bilge. Not a big deal, and the bilge pump deals with it in about 15 minutes. "

Scot...
Is that account correct? The high water alarm goes off but the bilge pump needs to turned on manually?
That seems like a much higher priority project than replacing plumbing.
On my Mainship when the high water switch is tripped it not only turns on the alarm but it activates ALL bilge pumps including the large capacity high water pump.

 

[backinblue]

I use city or dock water but ONLY when at a marina as a transient. I like having unlimited water w/o using the tank or pump. I am sleeping on the boat and not off the boat for long stretches of time. I don't see this as a serious risk. I would not hook up to water at my home slip and leave the boat.

 

[klee wyck]

"That is the high water bilge alarm”! I’m now wide awake, and running up to the pilot house, where the light that is illuminated for the engine room compartment. I silence the alarm, switch on the bilge pump, and head to the engine room, where I find water all over the place, and 300 gallons of fresh water in the bilge. Not a big deal, and the bilge pump deals with it in about 15 minutes. "

Scot...
Is that account correct? The high water alarm goes off but the bilge pump needs to turned on manually?
That seems like a much higher priority project than replacing plumbing.
On my Mainship when the high water switch is tripped it not only turns on the alarm but it activates ALL bilge pumps including the large capacity high water pump.

This....
Why did it get to the point of high water alarm? The pump should have come on automatically well before hitting the level of high water alarm in the configurations I have seen and am comfortable with. The high water alarm should only serve to tell you that water is coming in faster than the pump can evacuate it signaling the need for a high volume back-up system?
I would hate to turn my back on a boat that did not have this feature and where you had to manually turn on a pump if water ingress occurred.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Pretty sure the PEX on our boat has conventional brass barb fittings secured by stainless hose clamps, but I'll be confirming that next trip. I appreciate that there are good safety and performance records, but are Whale fittings a better mousetrap, or simply a different and more complex mousetrap?

 

[psneeld]

To me...the push on fittings are easier to switch out..but way more expensive and can be more prone to leaks.


No system is perfect and relies on proper install and ease of access to really determine what you would rather live with.

 

[OldDan1943]

My high water alarm is a 5 inch bell.
My water filling is water hose into the dock fill. Works fine. No moving parts. LOL

 

[Solly]

Wonder about the age of the fittings... Any type can get old, maybe brittle, and fail.
If one fitting failed how about the rest.....
I do like a reinforced hose and a good SS clamp with metal fittings but hose gets hard, clamps can fail.

 

[sean9c]

I'm curious. When you run your boat off dock water is there a pressure regulator? My marina has crazy high water pressure, great for washing your boat, but it'd scare me thinking that it was connected to my wimpy boat water system.
I replumbed my boat from really old copper to Whale. The Whale all worked fine but every once in a while if you bumped a fitting it'd start leaking until you wiggled to get it to stop. That finally irritated me enough that I tore that all out and went to pex. since I was concerned about repairability I fiddled around with the pex crimp rings and found that the pinch plier kind are pretty easy to take apart. So repairs or mods are easy

 

[slowgoesit]

"That is the high water bilge alarm”! I’m now wide awake, and running up to the pilot house, where the light that is illuminated for the engine room compartment. I silence the alarm, switch on the bilge pump, and head to the engine room, where I find water all over the place, and 300 gallons of fresh water in the bilge. Not a big deal, and the bilge pump deals with it in about 15 minutes. "

Scot...
Is that account correct? The high water alarm goes off but the bilge pump needs to turned on manually?
That seems like a much higher priority project than replacing plumbing.
On my Mainship when the high water switch is tripped it not only turns on the alarm but it activates ALL bilge pumps including the large capacity high water pump.

Automatic bilge pumps are small capacity 400 gph. Switchable pumps are 2000 gph. Engine driven is in the of 8,000 gph, actual. When valved for intake overboard, this pump also can function as a fire hose.

The small pump was on, but with a popped water line, water was pumping into the bilge faster than the small pump could pump out. Got to high water alarm float, then I turned on the 2000 gph pump. Everything functioned as designed, except the Whale connector.

With both the 2000 gph pump, and the engine driven, I have to manually select which water tight compartment to pump out. The small auto pumps in each compartment pump only that compartment. The high water alarm lights the associated light in the pilothouse, telling you which compartment has high water.

In order to lay in an adequate supply of Whale Connector repair parts, I would spend more than replacing the entire water system will cost, including water lines with Pex, AND repair parts to have on hand in the event I have a failure. I am also planning on putting in a transom/swim step shower as well for showering off after diving/swimming, as well as hosing off dingy and running engine with fresh water, so as long as I'm going to be expanding the boat water system, I am planning on doing it all with the same type of piping/fittings, all with SS crimp fittings. This won't be happening tomorrow, but it IS now on the list. It will probably be done when I install the aft deck shower.

P.S: The existing Whale piping/connectors on the boat appear to be around 20 years old. Thanks for all the comments! If I can make people think about their systems, or check the condition of their system, this post will have served it's purpose!

 

[slowgoesit]

I'm curious. When you run your boat off dock water is there a pressure regulator? My marina has crazy high water pressure, great for washing your boat, but it'd scare me thinking that it was connected to my wimpy boat water system.
I replumbed my boat from really old copper to Whale. The Whale all worked fine but every once in a while if you bumped a fitting it'd start leaking until you wiggled to get it to stop. That finally irritated me enough that I tore that all out and went to pex. since I was concerned about repairability I fiddled around with the pex crimp rings and found that the pinch plier kind are pretty easy to take apart. So repairs or mods are easy

That has been my experience as well! Not so for the bronze/copper crimps, but I only use those for houses, NOT boats.
As to the pressure regulators, I don't have one, but then I never use the dock side water supply fitting, only use dock water to fill the tanks. I'm interested as well, to know if the people using dock side water pressure either have regulators, or check the dock pressure and compare it to the rated pressure of all of the appliances/faucets/washing machine solenoid (if equipped) to ensure that they aren't putting more pressure into the boat than the weakest appliance/fitting is designed to handle. Most household appliances here in the States are designed with a working pressure of around 45 psi, and a max pressure of 60 - 65 psi. Our dock pressure at our current marina is 80 to 85 psi . . .

 

[Bmarler]

i use a lot of those push lock fittings (like the whale fittings) there are several manufacturers of them. they can be rated for some pretty high pressures. they're all over the place in industrial settings. some of them have been in service for decades without issue. sometimes the o-ring can fail, or the whole inside piece can come out, but it's fairly rare. on a boats low pressure water system a failure would be rare indeed.
personally though, for the boat i prefer to have copper plumbing, flare or compression fittings. pex would probably be second choice.

 

[backinblue]

I'm curious. When you run your boat off dock water is there a pressure regulator? My marina has crazy high water pressure, great for washing your boat, but it'd scare me thinking that it was connected to my wimpy boat water system.
I replumbed my boat from really old copper to Whale. The Whale all worked fine but every once in a while if you bumped a fitting it'd start leaking until you wiggled to get it to stop. That finally irritated me enough that I tore that all out and went to pex. since I was concerned about repairability I fiddled around with the pex crimp rings and found that the pinch plier kind are pretty easy to take apart. So repairs or mods are easy

Yes, water inlet connections made for a boat have a pressure regulator and backflow valve. Generally they regulate your boat's system to about 40 psi. Something like this for instance:

https://www.amazon.com/Jabsco-Regul...t=&hvlocphy=9003386&hvtargid=pla-570026745320

 

[OldDan1943]

Not familiar with the Jebsco regulator....
A little searching you should find a pressure reducer valve, with gauge. you can put on a hose. I would recommend putting the pressure reducer valve close the marina bib.

 

[backinblue]

Not familiar with the Jebsco regulator....
A little searching you should find a pressure reducer valve, with gauge. you can put on a hose. I would recommend putting the pressure reducer valve close the marina bib.

This is built into the water inlet so it's always with you wherever you go. I don't know, but always assumed that there would be a regulator for a water hookup on any boat or RV. I suppose that's not always the case.

 

[Davil1]

this thread reminded me the need for a bilge water alert.
Any recommendation based on experience.
many choices and prices available
thank you for your help

 

[koliver]

this thread reminded me the need for a bilge water alert.
Any recommendation based on experience.
many choices and prices available
thank you for your help

You may already have one. Like Scot, I have one who sleeps next to me. "what is that sound?" has been my wake up call, as it was for Scot.
Priceless.

 

[rslifkin]

Automatic bilge pumps are small capacity 400 gph. Switchable pumps are 2000 gph. Engine driven is in the of 8,000 gph, actual. When valved for intake overboard, this pump also can function as a fire hose.

Those bigger pumps should also be auto. Just put the floats up higher. In my mind, any pump that can be auto should be.

 

[ksanders]

Automatic bilge pumps are small capacity 400 gph. Switchable pumps are 2000 gph. Engine driven is in the of 8,000 gph, actual. When valved for intake overboard, this pump also can function as a fire hose.

The small pump was on, but with a popped water line, water was pumping into the bilge faster than the small pump could pump out. Got to high water alarm float, then I turned on the 2000 gph pump. Everything functioned as designed, except the Whale connector.

With both the 2000 gph pump, and the engine driven, I have to manually select which water tight compartment to pump out. The small auto pumps in each compartment pump only that compartment. The high water alarm lights the associated light in the pilothouse, telling you which compartment has high water.

In order to lay in an adequate supply of Whale Connector repair parts, I would spend more than replacing the entire water system will cost, including water lines with Pex, AND repair parts to have on hand in the event I have a failure. I am also planning on putting in a transom/swim step shower as well for showering off after diving/swimming, as well as hosing off dingy and running engine with fresh water, so as long as I'm going to be expanding the boat water system, I am planning on doing it all with the same type of piping/fittings, all with SS crimp fittings. This won't be happening tomorrow, but it IS now on the list. It will probably be done when I install the aft deck shower.

P.S: The existing Whale piping/connectors on the boat appear to be around 20 years old. Thanks for all the comments! If I can make people think about their systems, or check the condition of their system, this post will have served it's purpose!

Your boat, but that is simply not true.

Whale components are not unlike any other plumbing part. You need at least one 90, and a tee, a end cap, and a threaded fitting as spares. Total cost maybe $25-30 USD.

Re-plumbing your boat will take a month of sundays and hundreds of dollars in parts. My guess is over a thousand dollars in parts before the job is done.

I do not know about you but I have a infinite l;ist of things I would like to do on my boat, and a finite amount of time in which to do them. Replacing a perfectly good plumbing system is not even on the list.

 

[swboater]

I know it sounds cheap; it was. I made my own bilge alarm with a float switch and a junkyard automotive car horn. I have less than thirty dollars in it. It saved us 2 years ago when I forgot to turn off the shore water. I won't forget again.

 

[OldDan1943]

this thread reminded me the need for a bilge water alert.
Any recommendation based on experience.
many choices and prices available
thank you for your help

I have 4 bilge pumps with internal float switches, on/off for the pump. I added 4 separate float switches that trip the bell. Bought the pumps and separate float switches from West Marine. Also have a panel that counts the number of times the various pumps cycle. Good to know if one is away from the boat for a time.

 

[twistedtree]

The Whale fittings are rated to something like 140-150F. If you have them exposed to hot water that has been heated by the engine, it will be in the 180F range and is likely to deteriorate the fitting over time. Ideally you would install a tempering valve at the HW tank outlet to keep the hot water in the rest of the system at a more reasonable temp.

Also, it seems all too common for there to be a check valve where the cold water feeds the hot water tank. When that’s the case, there is nowhere for the hot water to expand when it’s heated, especially when it’s heated by the engine. This can lead to periodic very high pressure in the hw system, and may exceed fitting ratings of all sorts, not just Whale. Similarly, many smaller boat system have no accumulator or expansion tank, which is another way to end up with periodic very high pressure in the system.

 

[rslifkin]

Also, it seems all too common for there to be a check valve where the cold water feeds the hot water tank. When that’s the case, there is nowhere for the hot water to expand when it’s heated, especially when it’s heated by the engine. This can lead to periodic very high pressure in the hw system, and may exceed fitting ratings of all sorts, not just Whale. Similarly, many smaller boat system have no accumulator or expansion tank, which is another way to end up with periodic very high pressure in the system.

This is definitely a concern. I'm doing a partial rebuild of my water system this winter and will be adding an expansion tank between the check valve and the water heater input. Currently, if the water heater is warming up from cold, I have to remember to crack a hot water faucet for a second every 20 minutes during the heating process (otherwise it builds enough pressure on the hot side that one of the faucets will start to drip and if I set the thermostat on the water heater any higher, the T&P valve will blow off a bit).

 

[backinblue]

Doesn't the hot water heater have a pressure relief valve for that if too much pressure builds? And to take it a step further, when a tank full of hot water starts to cool at anchor, does your fresh water pump cycle occasionall due to the drop in pressure?

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

We don't ever hook up water to our boat. Fill up the tanks ( we have 350 gal) and use that water - keeps the tanks fresh, and won't sink the boat.

 

[rslifkin]

Doesn't the hot water heater have a pressure relief valve for that if too much pressure builds? And to take it a step further, when a tank full of hot water starts to cool at anchor, does your fresh water pump cycle occasionall due to the drop in pressure?

The T&P valve on the water heater is only meant to relieve a dangerous overpressure. If it ever opens in normal use, the system is poorly designed. Plus, any water it dumps is wasted. And yes, as the water heater cools, an occasional pump cycle is normal (if no water has been used in a while and the system pressure hasn't been topped up before dropping enough to turn the pump on).

 

[Bmarler]

Doesn't the hot water heater have a pressure relief valve for that if too much pressure builds? And to take it a step further, when a tank full of hot water starts to cool at anchor, does your fresh water pump cycle occasionall due to the drop in pressure?

this is a good point. that pressure relief needs to be matched to system pressure. they usually come with a high pressure relief that's way too high for a boats pressure. i remember reading notes from my surveyor that the pressure relief should be about 30 or 40 pounds above normal system pressure. (from memory)
a lot of those have like 140 psi relief on them, way too high.

 

[sean9c]

After what I posted earlier, if you have Whale fittings in your system and like them, the fittings are available and are only $5 or so. You can get them at your West Marine and also in the PNW at Fisheries Supply. So for maybe $50 you can have a handful of spare fittings and a length of tube that'd patch most of what could fail.
Also Whale fittings and tube are metric, things like Sharkbite and pex tubing aren't, they don't mix.