Gulf oil filter problem

[Riff Raff]

I have an accepted offer in on a boat with John Deere 6068sfm. 1200 hours , 15 years old. All ok except high lead. No high copper, nor high anything else. The party line is that the gulf coast filter cylinder was not cleaned properly so created high ppm. Does that make sense? Thanks.

 

[Comodave]

There really isn’t much to clean in one, just replace the filter element, maybe a roll of paper towels, and that is about all you do to them as I understand it. Maybe PM Ski and ask, he is very knowledgeable about engines.

 

[Lepke]

Lead is from main, rod and cam bearings. If too much bearing surface has worn away, you have low oil pressure. If the oil pressure is normal once the engine is at full operating temperature, you're probably ok.

Properly used, A Gulf Coast Filter should keep the oil exceptionally clean.

 

[Riff Raff]

Thanks Comodave. Yes, I was hoping Ski would have a chance to comment. Have been quietly reading forum for years and his is always the voice of reason.
Thanks for your thoughts Lepke too. I know you have a ton of experience and totally respect your opinion. I have seen various pressures for a warm engine at idle so I am still in doubt of correct pressure. My understanding is 13-15 psi at idle is correct but that seems low.

 

[High Wire]

... My understanding is 13-15 psi at idle is correct but that seems low.

Yes it is very low unless there is something special about that engine model. Ski will know. Red flags waving!

 

[sunchaser]

Maybe contact JD for oil contaminant tell tales to look for. But -----

I am not a fan of gulf coast oil filters. Especially if used in place of the OEM setup. Why not? The after market canister designs I've seen seem too low tech and subject to paper degradation Vs a JD pleated element setup. On fuel the debate is different if a JD on engine secondary is in place.

Any evidence or records that indicate annual oil changes? If not suspect dirty oil as a culprit for high lead. If you otherwise like the boat get an estimate for an in frame rebuild and negotiate accordingly. And go to a standard JD oil filter setup.

 

[jleonard]

Can you tell us the lead number? Or better yet post the report?

 

[Ski in NC]

I won't be too much help on this one. I don't have experience with the GC filters, and not much with the 6068. Don't know if 13-15psi at hot idle is low. That is pretty typical for lots of similar engines.

Lead is often in the alloy used as an overlay on bearing surfaces. So if that overlay is worn, there will be Pb and also the other metals used in the alloy. The blend of metals used in the alloy varies with the bearing shell mfr.

Good start is to post up the whole oil analysis. Might be able to pick through the numbers a bit.

 

[kchace]

Thanks Comodave. Yes, I was hoping Ski would have a chance to comment. Have been quietly reading forum for years and his is always the voice of reason.
Thanks for your thoughts Lepke too. I know you have a ton of experience and totally respect your opinion. I have seen various pressures for a warm engine at idle so I am still in doubt of correct pressure. My understanding is 13-15 psi at idle is correct but that seems low.

According to the manual, 15PSI at slow idle is correct. That said, I doubt the Gulf Coast filter is at fault and high lead is a scary metal to have in the oil.


Ken

 

[Riff Raff]

Lead amount

The ppm for the lead is 51 ppm. All other components of sample completely normal. Not high at all. Will try to post sample results. I am fairly sure the oil has not been changed for years nor the oem filters. Date on gulf coast filter change was November 2020. No date on oem filters and PO said no need to change oil and he directed me to gulf coast website to see why oil didn’t need to be changed , just their filter. . Of course that was before poor sample results.

 

[Riff Raff]

oil sample

View attachment 1428688_4JDXM068069#ALCHEMY_ENG_MAIN_H430-51110-3005_AR.PDF

hope this is legible. first attempt.

 

[PM]

Labs have been known to make mistakes. I would send a second sample to either the same lab or a different one.

pete

 

[Comodave]

Maybe contact JD for oil contaminant tell tales to look for. But -----

I am not a fan of gulf coast oil filters. Especially if used in place of the OEM setup. Why not? The after market canister designs I've seen seem too low tech and subject to paper degradation Vs a JD pleated element setup. On fuel the debate is different if a JD on engine secondary is in place.

Any evidence or records that indicate annual oil changes? If not suspect dirty oil as a culprit for high lead. If you otherwise like the boat get an estimate for an in frame rebuild and negotiate accordingly. And go to a standard JD oil filter setup.

You don’t use a GC BYPASS filter as the only filter. The majority of the oil still flows through the OEM filter and a bit goes through the bypass filter for ultra filtration.

 

[Comodave]

The ppm for the lead is 51 ppm. All other components of sample completely normal. Not high at all. Will try to post sample results. I am fairly sure the oil has not been changed for years nor the oem filters. Date on gulf coast filter change was November 2020. No date on oem filters and PO said no need to change oil and he directed me to gulf coast website to see why oil didn’t need to be changed , just their filter. . Of course that was before poor sample results.

Yes, if you filter the oil to an extreme level then it doesn’t need to be changed, maybe ever, but the additives in the oil do get depleted. Don’t know if you can add some additives back in or not. But each time you change the paper element in the GC filter you have to add about a gallon of new oil so that MAY replenish the additives. GC has a test kit for the oil, not sure how it works. I was going to put GC filters on a previous boat but found that I didn’t have enough room as the GC filters are really big.

 

[jleonard]

The ppm for the lead is 51 ppm. All other components of sample completely normal. Not high at all. Will try to post sample results. I am fairly sure the oil has not been changed for years nor the oem filters. Date on gulf coast filter change was November 2020. No date on oem filters and PO said no need to change oil and he directed me to gulf coast website to see why oil didn’t need to be changed , just their filter. . Of course that was before poor sample results.

The highest lead content I ever had on my Lehman analysis was 1 ppm.

 

[twistedtree]

I’m confused. The Gulf Coast filter is for oil, or for fuel? I thought they were for fuel.

The engine is low hours and a good engine, but sounds like the oil was never changed. You could change the oil and probably run the engine for 20,000 hrs. But there is some risk of actual damage, so really depends on you risk appetite.

Regardless, if the GC is oil filtration, and worse yet has eliminated the on engine oil filter, I would lose it immediately and restore to factory configuration. An oil change every 250hrs is cheap insurance and a good excuse to give the engine a closer look.

 

[Riff Raff]

i would appreciate any knowledgeable comments on all the metal levels of sample. Thanks, Jeff

 

[Comodave]

I’m confused. The Gulf Coast filter is for oil, or for fuel? I thought they were for fuel.

The engine is low hours and a good engine, but sounds like the oil was never changed. You could change the oil and probably run the engine for 20,000 hrs. But there is some risk of actual damage, so really depends on you risk appetite.

Regardless, if the GC is oil filtration, and worse yet has eliminated the on engine oil filter, I would lose it immediately and restore to factory configuration. An oil change every 250hrs is cheap insurance and a good excuse to give the engine a closer look.

No, as I said above the GC is a BYPASS filter. See post #13. It does not replace the OEM oil filter. You take a small amount of the oil filter and route it through the GC filter. It does filtering at an extreme level. But the oil flow is small and slow through the filter. It is in addition to the original oil filter. So worse case you still have the OEM oil filtration.

GC filters can also be used in fuel filtering as a polisher. I don’t think they flow enough to be the primary filter though.

 

[Riff Raff]

Thanks Comodave. I do completely understand the gulf coast filter is a bypass filter. What I am trying to determine exactly what my probable risk is. Seems the oil sample shows high lead but not other elements. So, why only lead? Seems odd. Would expect a broader spectrum of high readings. Confused.

 

[Comodave]

I am not an engine mechanic. But with only lead showing in the sample, maybe the sample was bad or the lab was wrong. Can you pull another sample and have it tested to see if the results are the same. I would use a different lab. I don’t see how the GC filter could be the issue. If anything it should help the engines health since the oil is supposed to be filtered to less than a micron. There was a lot of writing on them in the early years of PassageMaker Magazine.

 

[Riff Raff]

Should have clarified. Oil was changed. Engine run under load and oil retested. Expect results of second sample in next couple of days. Will post result.

 

[Comodave]

I believe that to get good results from an oil analysis you need about 50 hours on the oil. I could be wrong but that is what I have heard.

 

[skyhawk]

Yes, if you filter the oil to an extreme level then it doesn’t need to be changed, maybe ever, but the additives in the oil do get depleted. Don’t know if you can add some additives back in or not. But each time you change the paper element in the GC filter you have to add about a gallon of new oil so that MAY replenish the additives. GC has a test kit for the oil, not sure how it works. I was going to put GC filters on a previous boat but found that I didn’t have enough room as the GC filters are really big.

Back in the early 1990's I was working as a Maintenance Engineer in a pulp and paper mill. One of our responsibilities was overseeing the lube oil analysis program. I was taught by a Texaco lubrication engineer that oil is a blend of polymer chains of various lengths....over time the shorter length polymers will evaporate leaving behind a higher concentration of long polymer chains...and that leads to out of spec viscosities, "sludge", etc...... and that this is the reason for the time specification for recommended oil change intervals.

Is that no longer the common thought on the idea?

 

[High Wire]

I believe that to get good results from an oil analysis you need about 50 hours on the oil. I could be wrong but that is what I have heard.

If you suspect a bad sample, no need to wait 50 hours.
Sorry, missed the post #21 where the old will was changed. The new sample will show, well, new oil plus a touch of residual.

 

[C lectric]

I believe that to get good results from an oil analysis you need about 50 hours on the oil. I could be wrong but that is what I have heard.

Generally YES BUT I have several times done immediate oil test pulls to get a base line of what the oil contamination level is NOW after a short oil change.

Particularly after a change immediately after repairing a fuel leak into the oil.
Did the repair, emptied the crankcase [SHORT CHANGE] did NOT change the filters, ran the engine at idle for 5 -10 minutes to mix the old and new oil and then took my sample.

That gave me the contamination level as of NOW. Then in my case I did another test in 10 hr and then 50 hr and finally at the normal change time of about 150hr.

This way I could see VERY QUICKLY if the work I had done effected the repair. In my case it worked.

So a SHORT change can be usefull if you empty the crankcase, add replacement new oil, leave the filters alone, run the engine for 5 - 10 minutes at idle, and then take another sample. You will then see what the lead level is immediately. THen another test in 10 and/or 20 or 50 hours which will tell you quickly if the contamination is rising again of if there was actually a problem.

In your case doing another test NOW would tell you compared to the test posted here if things are getting worse as long as there are maybe 10 or so hours.


It is possible the lab goofed.
It is possible the lead built up over a long time if oil changes were not being done. Bypass filters should be used in conjunction with oil testing, not in place of.
I don't see where the last real oil change was done.
THese filters will NOT remove contamination like this.

 

[mvweebles]

General question: what problem is being solved by addition of a bypass oil filter? My understanding is major engine manufacturers go to great lengths to assure proper filtration. What does an aftermarket bypass filter do that the OEM JD filter can't? I understand the logic for fuel filtration since there are external components, but engine oil is a closed system that does not easily permit contamination.

As far as the oil analysis, a bad number is a bad number. The current owner should figure it out. It would drive me nuts if I bought the boat - constantly wondering if I hear something or see something when I change oil or a change in exhaust. Ignoring a bad reading is the equivalent of putting a piece of duct tape over an indicator light and hoping it's a sensor malfunction.

Regardless, good luck.

Peter

 

[jleonard]

You also may not know where the sample came from. Meaning was it taken from the bottom of the sump where heavy metals may have accumulated?

I only mentioned this because in the past I had taken a sample from my velvet drive tranny and it had extremely high (3200 ppm) iron content. Turns out I had taken the sample from right next to a magnet that was epoxied inside the tranny case and that was not shown in the manual.

I consulted 3 "experts" and none suggested that could have been the reason iron was high.

 

[catalinajack]

By-pass filtration filters the oil down to a much lower micron level, thus, much cleaner oil, the benefits of which should be obvious. A typical full flow filter is 20 microns. The AMSOIL by-pass filter is 2 microns. That is a profound difference. By-pass filtration also extends oil change intervals whether Dino or synthetic oil is used. On my diesel pickup, I have gone as long as 800 hours with the oil analysis coming back with a "still-good-to-use" recommendation.

General question: what problem is being solved by addition of a bypass oil filter? My understanding is major engine manufacturers go to great lengths to assure proper filtration. What does an aftermarket bypass filter do that the OEM JD filter can't? I understand the logic for fuel filtration since there are external components, but engine oil is a closed system that does not easily permit contamination.

As far as the oil analysis, a bad number is a bad number. The current owner should figure it out. It would drive me nuts if I bought the boat - constantly wondering if I hear something or see something when I change oil or a change in exhaust. Ignoring a bad reading is the equivalent of putting a piece of duct tape over an indicator light and hoping it's a sensor malfunction.

Regardless, good luck.

Peter

 

[mvweebles]

By-pass filtration filters the oil down to a much lower micron level, thus, much cleaner oil, the benefits of which should be obvious. A typical full flow filter is 20 microns. The AMSOIL by-pass filter is 2 microns. That is a profound difference. By-pass filtration also extends oil change intervals whether Dino or synthetic oil is used. On my diesel pickup, I have gone as long as 800 hours with the oil analysis coming back with a "still-good-to-use" recommendation.

Does this mean that instead of going 15k hours between major overhauls, a decent diesel will go 20k hours?

Just seems like a solution in search of a problem for recreational boats that rarely see more than 100-200 hours per year of usage. Risk of failure of the bolt-on components and associated hoses offsets any benefit. Guessing it also voids the OEM warranty.

Peter.

 

[catalinajack]

I think the answer is a definite "yes", last longer. Is it worth it to any one owner to install by-pass filtration to extend useful life? Probably not if that owner did not intend on keeping the boat for many years. On the other hand, by-pass filtration enables very extended oil change intervals, three or four or five to every change without by-pass. As I said earlier, I have gone 800 hours and not needed a change based on oil analysis. Many boaters change every season or every 100 hours. That's a lot of oil and oil changes. I do not have by-pass on my boat. I change the oil when analysis tells me to do so, not on an arbitrary schedule. I would only do it on a schedule if I did not get analyses done.

Does this mean that instead of going 15k hours between major overhauls, a decent diesel will go 20k hours?

Just seems like a solution in search of a problem for recreational boats that rarely see more than 100-200 hours per year of usage. Risk of failure of the bolt-on components and associated hoses offsets any benefit. Guessing it also voids the OEM warranty.

Peter.