Velvet Drive questions

Jimmys57 · Feb 25, 2021

Hello all and thanks in advance for any help. Had transmission falure this past Saturday while moving our boat from Panama City to Cape Coral. Heard a grinding noise and then no forward or reverse. Got towed in to Crystal River and while under tow there was a bad grinding noise from transmission while prop was free wheeling. We were lucky to find a slip at Twin Rivers Marina where we remain. Transmission is a Velvet drive 10-13-000-003 with 2/1 reduction behind a Lehman 135. Pulled unit from boat and it was found that the splined shaft (planet carrier assembly I think) and the gear that goes on that shaft, what I beleive is called a sun gear had spun and all the splines were ground away. Reduction unit looks ok. Rented a car an took unit to a repair shop but they do not think these parts are avaliable. They say I may have to replace transmission with a different type which would involve lowering the engine. Evidently mine is a "drop center" unit. Any info on part sources to fix existing unit or experiences with replacing with a totally different transmission appreciated. Boat is a Marine Trader 38 single screw. Thank you

rslifkin · Feb 25, 2021

The 10-13 is a Velvet Drive CR2, if I'm remembering correctly. Those are a bit hard to find certain parts for. I know the reduction gear parts for the standard Velvet Drive 71C and 72C are still available though.

I trashed a stationary plate in one of my reduction units a couple of years ago, but with no collateral damage (ring gear and such was fine, just clean up, new plate and it's been fine since). Picture of the carnage is below.

C lectric · Feb 25, 2021

https://www.acadianmarinetransmission.com/

https://www.harbormarine.net/transmission-service

Transmission Marine Inc- Industrial part| Installation Service &AMP; Repair

THese three I bookmarked as rebuilding Velvet Drive and Borg Warner gears.

I have no experience with them but they may serve as a starting point.

Choices · Feb 25, 2021

I have been told parts are being reproduced near Seattle. Might call Brian at American Marine.

I have same tranny, 6000 hours, so following closely. Post lots of pictures.

When did you change dampner plate last?

Jimmys57 · Feb 25, 2021

Thanks for the help. I dont have a photo of the gear that has stripped splines but here is one of the shaft. The splines are still there but damaged. They are totally gone on the gear. The larger gear in the reduction unit looks fine

PM · Feb 25, 2021

To correct "Choices" it's Brian at American Diesel, 804 435-3107.

Those transmissions are rock solid and very simple. You rarely have a catastrophic breakdown, but they do happen. I never could understand why rebuilding such a simple transmission should cost so much.

Same holds true for the F.L. 120 and 135. Mine cost $20,000 to rebuild.

pete

Nomad Willy · Feb 25, 2021

Pete,
I wondered about that too.
Must be the cost of parts.

rslifkin · Feb 25, 2021

It's definitely parts cost if certain items need replacing. More so on the CR2 than the standard Velvet Drives. But even then, that stationary plate that de-toothed itself in my picture above cost me about $500 to replace (plus a few bucks for overnight shipping). Fortunately it didn't damage any of the other expensive gears in the reduction housing.

jleonard · Feb 25, 2021

https://treasure.craigslist.org/bpo/d/sebastian-borg-warner-velvet-drive/7280646359.html

Found this searching craig's list. That's a 2 minute search there are probably more around.
They list a CR-2 at the bottom of the ad
Good luck

timb · Feb 25, 2021

and I was beginning to think I was the one person with a singe in a 38 . i have the same setup but I think mine is close to 2-1/2 to 1 .so now I'm nervous .how many hours were on yours ? I have heard of several failures but not one that could not be fixed . check with seattleboatguy on here and YouTube he had a future of the same transmission in the great lakes .I'm not sure who worked on his.

rslifkin · Feb 25, 2021

timb said:
and I was beginning to think I was the one person with a singe in a 38 . i have the same setup but I think mine is close to 2-1/2 to 1 .so now I'm nervous .how many hours were on yours ? I have heard of several failures but not one that could not be fixed . check with seattleboatguy on here and YouTube he had a future of the same transmission in the great lakes .I'm not sure who worked on his.

Both of my 2.57:1 72Cs have had the same reduction unit failure. The first one to go was at ~1500 hours and had gear damage and got a full rebuild (before it was my problem to fix). The other one failed about 50 hours later, but everything looked perfect aside from the sheared teeth on the plate. First one was a bit noisy for a while before failure, second one never made a sound, seemed perfect up until it let go with no warning. The rebuild has ~200 hours on it now, the one I just split the reduction housing and fixed has about 150 hours since the incident (~1700 total) with no signs of any further issue.

However, my transmissions are handling quite a bit more power than yours would be (340hp engines and planing cruise is around 180 - 200hp continuously). Both failures happened on plane, so with a decent bit of power going through the trans and at higher RPM.

I haven't heard of my specific failure being common, so I'm guessing it's only a concern in higher power and/or higher RPM situations (my engines turn ~4200 at WOT, planing cruise is 3200 - 3400).

Brooksie · Feb 25, 2021

Plenty of parts available for the Velvet Drives, don't even think about going to a different transmission with all that can entail.
There are places that have rebuilt exchanges and many that can rebuild it for you, and always some on ebay & craigs list.

Jimmys57 · Feb 25, 2021

Jleonard- Thank you for the link. Called Ron and told him the situation. He said that repairing this transmission would be shockingly expenive because the gears are so scarce. He said the engine could be lowered 1.66 inches and then use a 10-18-000-006 transmission which can be had rebuilt and ready to go for around 2k however I would have to get a new prop because current transmission is for left hand prop. He did not have an exact figure on repairing the current unit but it sounded like it could be as high as 10k. I am going to call some of the other places that you all have suggested and will post outcome. Thanks again

Jimmys57 · Feb 25, 2021

timb- right at 3000 hours. Always changed fluids, etc. This came out of the blue - no noises or symtoms until it let go.

Brooksie · Feb 25, 2021

tiltrider1 · Feb 25, 2021

Harbor Marine out of Everett, Washington will know your answers. They are a major Velvet Drive rebuilder. (425) 259-3285

Jimmys57 · Feb 25, 2021

Thanks Brooksie. Did look at some of those but most are not drop center units. May have to go with that option if I can lower engine enough.

SoWhat · Feb 25, 2021

Without a picture of the gear I can't be positive but it sounds like the drive gear. (or pinion gear) They are out of production. A machine shop specializing in gears could make one but it might cost you $2K. I would put new disks and seals in during rebuild.

Trans Atlantic Diesel has 2 CR2's in stock, 2.5:1, $3650 each plus shipping. You would need a new prop.

Basic Power Industries has a 1.6:1 CR2 reduction gear in stock, $1495 plus shipping. It is a complete bolt on replacement. You would need a new prop. (I buy gasket kits from them.)

Dropping the engine is not a trivial task. Guessing $2K. Standard 71C's are readily available, anywhere from $1-2K. You might be able to find just the reduction gear but most come with the transmission.

Replace the damper plate while you have transmission out.

Jimmys57 · Feb 26, 2021

Thanks for that info- I would rather not have to lower the engine. I assume if I put 1.6:1 unit in I would need a lower pitched prop and if I went with the 2.5:1 more pitch. Also was told that the offset of the reduction units is different and the engine height would still have to be adjusted not sure about that though.

kchace · Feb 26, 2021

The problem you have with your CR2 is THE problem those typically develop usually in the 4-5000 hour timeframe. The parts needed are particular to that transmission and have not been produced in many years. That said, there are MANY rebuilders of these transmissions. Even if you have to buy one outright for $3-5k you will be much better off than buying something else then having to go through all the changes to accommodate it.

Btw - there are 2 models of CR2, 10-13 and 10-14. The 10-14 has slightly beefier clutches and so is 3/4” longer but other than that there is no difference in the drop or any other dimension amongst all of the ratios.

Ken

SoWhat · Feb 26, 2021

Jimmys57 said:
Thanks for that info- I would rather not have to lower the engine. I assume if I put 1.6:1 unit in I would need a lower pitched prop and if I went with the 2.5:1 more pitch. Also was told that the offset of the reduction units is different and the engine height would still have to be adjusted not sure about that though.

There are several online prop calculators that will suggest correct size for different ratios.

Can't say with 100% certainty but to my knowledge all CR2's should have same output shaft height. Some models might use 71C transmission and some might use 72C but that shouldn't change height. Whoever you buy from should have exact measurements.

Jimmys57 · Feb 26, 2021

Took my old transmission to ADR power systems yesterday. They were very hepful and tore the unit down right away. Fouund out today(as expected) that the damaged gears were basically unavalible and the transmission is worthless. They think that it must have been run alot with little or no lubrication at some point. (before I owned it) Great guys there-charged me nothing to tear down. Luckily I found an exact replacement transmission at a boat yard in Palmetto Fl. advertized on facebook marketplace. Guy had a video of the transmisssion operating on test stand so decided to take a chance on it. Installing tommorow morning. Hoping for the best so we can get home. Thanks again everyone for your help.

Choices · Feb 26, 2021

Keep your old one for parts.

C lectric · Feb 26, 2021

Great to hear that your problem seems to have found a good solution.

Art · Feb 27, 2021

Although none listed here may fit [took two minutes to locate] - If I were you... I'd search google for used, good condition BW trans that meets your need. I'm pretty confident they are out there! Might need new seals etc... but probably a lot less expensive and faster too than finding parts for full rebuild.

https://modesto.craigslist.org/bpo/d/jamestown-borg-warner-velvet-drive/7282957334.html

https://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/bpo/d/santa-rosa-velvet-drive-transmission/7281824524.html

Used Marine Transmissions | Velevet Drive Transmissions - Hurth Transmissions

Good Luck!!

ghost · Feb 27, 2021

tiltrider1 said:
Harbor Marine out of Everett, Washington will know your answers. They are a major Velvet Drive rebuilder. (425) 259-3285

I know they are on the other side of the country but Mike built the transmission business at Harbor Marine over many years. He is as good as they come and I first had him working on my boats more than 20 years ago. Very few people I recommend anymore. I’d take his recommendation in a heartbeat.

jleonard · Feb 27, 2021

Jimmys57 said:
Took my old transmission to ADR power systems yesterday. They were very hepful and tore the unit down right away. Fouund out today(as expected) that the damaged gears were basically unavalible and the transmission is worthless. They think that it must have been run alot with little or no lubrication at some point. (before I owned it) Great guys there-charged me nothing to tear down. Luckily I found an exact replacement transmission at a boat yard in Palmetto Fl. advertized on facebook marketplace. Guy had a video of the transmisssion operating on test stand so decided to take a chance on it. Installing tommorow morning. Hoping for the best so we can get home. Thanks again everyone for your help.

Great find.
I hope you heed the advise given to install a new damper plate since the tranny is out. They are not expensive and now is the right time.
Let us know how it works out after your sea trial.

Art · Feb 27, 2021

Borg Warner rebuild kits... Hope your BW model is included. I bet there are ways to locate the kit for your trany! Good Luck!!

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...HZ3dzLXdpeg&sclient=gws-wiz#spf=1614442272082

gonesailing13 · Feb 27, 2021

A little off subject here but I have the same Lehman135 with the velvet drive trans. Can anyone tell me what type of fluid I should be using in it.

High Wire · Feb 27, 2021

gonesailing13 said:
A little off subject here but I have the same Lehman135 with the velvet drive trans. Can anyone tell me what type of fluid I should be using in it.

If it's red fluid then its Dexron III ATF.

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