Insurance question

[TexasBryan]

I was tied to the T-head at a marina last Friday night. A storm blew through overnight and a 64' Hatteras pulled anchor and crashed into me causing significant damage to my boat.

His insurance (State Farm) told me today that they will not cover the damage to my boat claiming that the Hatteras did nothing wrong and the damage was caused by the storm.

What would your insurance provider cover if you were the boat at anchor?

What would your expectations be if you were the boat tied to the dock?

 

[psneeld]

Call your insurance and let insurance companies fight it out.

 

[sbman]

I was tied to the T-head at a marina last Friday night. A storm blew through overnight and a 64' Hatteras pulled anchor and crashed into me causing significant damage to my boat.

His insurance (State Farm) told me today that they will not cover the damage to my boat claiming that the Hatteras did nothing wrong and the damage was caused by the storm.

What would your insurance provider cover if you were the boat at anchor?

What would your expectations be if you were the boat tied to the dock?

Keep in mind that you have no legally binding contract with the other parties insurance, so their terms and limitations are not something that you are subject to. I'd look for legal advice from a lawyer that specializes in marine insurance.

 

[Larry M]

Call your insurance and let insurance companies fight it out.

What he said. Your insurance company should pay your claim and they will subrogate against the the other guy's insurance, State Farm. Ask me how I know.

You can go after the other guy and/or his insurance company for your deductible which your insurance company probably wont pay.

 

[BandB]

I was tied to the T-head at a marina last Friday night. A storm blew through overnight and a 64' Hatteras pulled anchor and crashed into me causing significant damage to my boat.

His insurance (State Farm) told me today that they will not cover the damage to my boat claiming that the Hatteras did nothing wrong and the damage was caused by the storm.

What would your insurance provider cover if you were the boat at anchor?

What would your expectations be if you were the boat tied to the dock?

First thing you do in an event like this is contact your insurance. Then you step back and let them handle it.

I'd argue against State Farm in this case. I do understand there are events in which those who do everything right, end up being damaged and damaging others. However, I think of the dog that gets out of the yard and bites someone. People plea "it dug under" or "So and so failed to close the gate well" or "it broke it's leash" or dozens of other arguments. But the reality is the owner failed to secure their dog. I see that here, the owner of the anchored boat failed to secure it. He can say the anchor has always worked or anything else, but on this occasion it wasn't enough. He could have purchase more anchor or anchored elsewhere or docked or anything, but didn't and the proof that what he did was inadequate is that the boat came loose. I know they'll claim "act of god" but I still see that what they did was inadequate. The proof is that their boat hit yours.

I see the likelihood of your insurer covering you and then this ending up in litigation.

 

[AlanT]

I was tied to the T-head at a marina last Friday night. A storm blew through overnight and a 64' Hatteras pulled anchor and crashed into me causing significant damage to my boat.

His insurance (State Farm) told me today that they will not cover the damage to my boat claiming that the Hatteras did nothing wrong and the damage was caused by the storm.

What would your insurance provider cover if you were the boat at anchor?

What would your expectations be if you were the boat tied to the dock?

As others have said, classic case of call your insurance, you should not need a lawyer. Your insurer will settle your claim and proceed against the other party and his/her insurance. Hopefully you have all their details. You have a separate claim against the other party for your uncompensated damage (usually the deductible on your policy). You should not get 'dinged' by your insurer for this no fault accident.
~A

 

[tiltrider1]

Like every one has said, notify your insurance company.

Now as a point of reference, State Farm is full of BS and they will be paying the claim. The Hatteras failed to maintain an adequate watch and maritime law is going to stick it to them.

 

[Comodave]

The Hatteras may have done everything correctly however stuff happens and that is why you have insurance. In the end his insurance will pay up. Even if you do everything correctly it still doesn’t relieve you from liability when you hit someone else’s boat.

 

[ksanders]

This situation is exactly why you need a yacht insurance policy.

The other boat's insurance company might be right. Proving the owner of the other boat was negligent might be a difficult thing to do.

A good lawyer could make a convincing case either way.

As others have said, let your insurance handle it.

 

[ksanders]

The Hatteras may have done everything correctly however stuff happens and that is why you have insurance. In the end his insurance will pay up. Even if you do everything correctly it still doesn’t relieve you from liability when you hit someone else’s boat.

Maybe yes, maybe no.

Negligence is what you are trying to prove, not that the other guys boat caused damage to your boat.

If you cannot show the other owner was negligent then you would probably not prevail in a lawsuit.

We as humans erroneously think that just because boat A damages boat B then the owner of Boat a is liable for the damages.

Without establishing negligence you have no case. What did the owner do wrong or not do that a normal person in his situation would have done differently.'

That makes negligence, not the mere fact that boat A damaged Boat B.

 

[Comodave]

Not being a lawyer, could a case be made that since the anchor was not holding then the Hatteras was underway??? If so then they need to be in control of the vessel.

 

[ksanders]

Not being a lawyer, could a case be made that since the anchor was not holding then the Hatteras was underway??? If so then they need to be in control of the vessel.

I'm not a lawyer either but probably not.

In this case...

Is it normal to anchor and leave your boat, or is that negligent? do other's in that area anchor and leave their boats? for how long? Was the owner gone for a week or a afternoon?

Was the ground tackle sized appropriately? Under sized ground tackle could be because of a negligent decision.

Was the ground tackle deployed properly? For example was the anchor short scoped?

Was the storm that occurred out of the ordinary? Prudent people know that storms happen, but to what level?

Those are questions one might ask to determine if the owner was negligent.
As you can see it's not cut and dry.

 

[BruceK]

I'm not a lawyer either but probably not.

In this case...

Is it normal to anchor and leave your boat, or is that negligent? do other's in that area anchor and leave their boats? for how long? Was the owner gone for a week or a afternoon?

Was the ground tackle sized appropriately? Under sized ground tackle could be because of a negligent decision.

Was the ground tackle deployed properly? For example was the anchor short scoped?

Was the storm that occurred out of the ordinary? Prudent people know that storms happen, but to what level?

Those are questions one might ask to determine if the owner was negligent.
As you can see it's not cut and dry.

Maybe not, but you (Kevin) are raising the right issues.
This is like a "res ipsa loquitur", meaning "the thing speaks for itself". The boat was anchored, the anchoring failed, at first instance the boat( boat`s user/owner) looks liable. Over to them to show why the boat isn`t liable? Can they show it`s not? It`s like the onus moves from you to "the boat",to show it did everything right.
The insurer of the boat is not denying liability on tricky insurance terms, it`s gone to the right issue, "were we negligent?" and they`re saying, "no, it was the storm".
(Wonder what brand of anchor it was that failed?.)
Seriously, I`d say the Hatteras and it`s insurer have some work to do. But of course, the law could be very different from here to there.

 

[TexasBryan]

To answer some of your questions.

I don't know what anchor the Hatteras had deployed. They left the marina before dawn and I did not get his contact and insurance information until the CG located him a state away on Sunday afternoon.

There were several other boats anchored in the same portion of the bayou that did not move. From the best I can judge, the Hatteras came in from about 1/2 mile away.

 

[garmstro55]

I am a long time insurance agent and of the above advice, in my opinion the correct answers are 1) your insurance company should pay for repairs and 2) for the other party's insurance to pay there needs to be some sort of negligence proved. You don't have to do this, your company will try to recover from State Farm. You might be responsible for your deductible unless anything is recovered from SF.

People ask me all the time, "my neighbor's tree fell on my house, won't his insurance cover it?" Most likely, no, unless you can prove he was negligent, i.e. knew it was rotted and likely to fall and did nothing about it. Difficult to prove unless you have documentation showing you warned him about it and he ignored you.

If you want to recover your deductible you can always go to small claims court if you have a strong case that the other party did not act in a prudent manner when they anchored. Again, tough to prove.

Don't sweat it, this is why you have insurance.

 

[GoldenDawn]

Another question that might help with your claim - how many other boats dragged anchor during that storm event?

 

[egbauman]

Great discussion that really hits home as my boat was next to Bryan’s boat when the Hatteras came loose and crashed into us. It was a wild night with us out in the rain and wind trying to push the Hatteras away from our boats. My boat was undamaged but that was only due to pure luck.

As to negligence, let me try to clarify. The Hatteras had a 120lb Mantus anchor. I’ll leave it to others to decide whether that was sufficient. But he had only 20 ft of chain. The rest of his rode was rope. I consider that insufficient for a boat that size and weight.

The owner failed to set an anchor alarm. He was completely unaware that his boat had pulled loose from its anchorage and drifter into us until he heard us banging on his hull.

Hope this helps the discussion.

Evan

 

[Moonfish]

Great discussion that really hits home as my boat was next to Bryan’s boat when the Hatteras came loose and crashed into us. It was a wild night with us out in the rain and wind trying to push the Hatteras away from our boats. My boat was undamaged but that was only due to pure luck.

As to negligence, let me try to clarify. The Hatteras had a 120lb Mantus anchor. I’ll leave it to others to decide whether that was sufficient. But he had only 20 ft of chain. The rest of his rode was rope. I consider that insufficient for a boat that size and weight.

The owner failed to set an anchor alarm. He was completely unaware that his boat had pulled loose from its anchorage and drifter into us until he heard us banging on his hull.

Hope this helps the discussion.

Evan

Um, wow!

 

[Mark P]

I know nothing about maritime law, but notify your insurance company just in case the Hatteras had no insurance (you'd be surprised at the number of boats going "bare" so to speak). Your company may deny coverage for failure to notify. The question of whether you need a lawyer depends on what will happen to your coverage if you claim against your insurance. If after the claim, your insurance goes up three fold, and stays there for six years, this could be trouble (that's why i have underinsured and uninsured on my cars). Worse, what if they drop you - now what? State Farm (Hatteras ins.) owes you nothing - your insurance company must abide by your contract. State Farm is hoping you go away, and your insurance company pay based on your contract with them. I'd find out what a maritime lawyers costs for a quick letter to the Hatteras owner - if it costs $300 and saves your $5,000 in future insurance bills, may be worth the call.

 

[BandB]

To the OP:

Have you contacted your insurer? Do you have insurance? Who is it with? Most insurers will apply the right pressure and take any legal action necessary against the other party.

There is prima facie evidence the other party was negligent as his boat broke free and hit yours. That should be enough for your insurer to shift the burden of proof to the other party.

 

[Pau Hana]

To the OP- you've been given great advice here. This situation is simply a liability claim, and nothing more. Doesn't matter what ground tackle was deployed, or the scope he was at.

He hit you, and that is a liability issue- his liability is to making you whole.

Don't go into the weeds with every permutation of "what if"- get your insurer involved and let them do the heavy lifting.

 

[timb7734]

A lot of conjecture here when the facts as stated are a prima facie case in favor of the vessel that was struck. Your insurance will straighten it out, and my experience with State Farm has been similar where they play hardball on large claims. Should not affect your premiums at all.

 

[ProMaritime]

I you are insured turn it over to your insurance company. It's called "subrogation" and is standard procedure in the industry. In fact, if you try to pursue this by hassling the owner of the errant boat, or his insurance company, you may void the right of subrogation. Read your policy.
If the errant boat is a US flag vessel go on the USCG website and do a title search. If both insurers bow out, you as a individual, may file a Maritime Lein on the aggressor boat which is what your insurer will do if his insurer doesn't assume responsibility.
A word to the wise. Always make sure you have "uninsured" and/or "inadequately insured" coverage for other operators. Just like your car insurance.

 

[arcadia]

We had a sailboat pull anchor and land on our bow the first week we had our new ST. Both parties contacted our insurance companies and I ended up getting paid through his. They were very nice about the incident.

 

[billdomb]

I was tied to the T-head at a marina last Friday night. A storm blew through overnight and a 64' Hatteras pulled anchor and crashed into me causing significant damage to my boat.

His insurance (State Farm) told me today that they will not cover the damage to my boat claiming that the Hatteras did nothing wrong and the damage was caused by the storm.

What would your insurance provider cover if you were the boat at anchor?

What would your expectations be if you were the boat tied to the dock?

Sue their lying butts. Can also contact the insurance commissioner in their state. Otherwise, just go after the owner. It's HIS problem.

 

[Group9]

Call your insurance and let insurance companies fight it out.

This. Treat it like being hit by an uninsured boat.

 

[MVDarlin]

Lots of fancy latin terms quoted here. Best advice; contact your insurer.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Sue their lying butts. Can also contact the insurance commissioner in their state. Otherwise, just go after the owner. It's HIS problem.

Go after him with what? A lawsuit? You think a lawyer would take this case on spec?

Why pay a lawyer when you are already paying your insurance premium?

 

[Mark P]

The potential problem I see with the comments to the effect that "let the insurance companies work it out" is that TexasBryan may be losing his "free" claim. Let me explain - my wife hit the tree in front of our house last year (tree has been there for 90 years, I said nothing to her and just fixed the car.). I called the insurance company and (it cost like $5600 to fix) they told me, your rates are not going up because we had accident forgiveness after 35 years with no claims. The next one, however, rates go up, and stay up for a while - it is all based on claims and record. So applying this to Mr. TexasBryan, he should not have to lose his free bite at the insurance apple so to speak because some Hatteras drifted into his boat.

 

[BandB]

The potential problem I see with the comments to the effect that "let the insurance companies work it out" is that TexasBryan may be losing his "free" claim. Let me explain - my wife hit the tree in front of our house last year (tree has been there for 90 years, I said nothing to her and just fixed the car.). I called the insurance company and (it cost like $5600 to fix) they told me, your rates are not going up because we had accident forgiveness after 35 years with no claims. The next one, however, rates go up, and stay up for a while - it is all based on claims and record. So applying this to Mr. TexasBryan, he should not have to lose his free bite at the insurance apple so to speak because some Hatteras drifted into his boat.

You're biting an apple and he's biting a tomato. You talk about a specific feature of your auto policy which doesn't exist across the board on cars and not at all on boats. Plus, a claim made even on the policy of another still shows up as a claim. Someone runs into your car and their insurer pays. Your insurer still has record of you filing the claim against the other party.

So what you're talking about has no relevance here. There's a claim to be filed and a record and it may well impact his insurance rates or may not.