Very basic and stoopit questions about costs...

[Jeff Lebowski]

Considering a trawler to live on for 5-6 months per year, perhaps more.

In very very rough numbers, say I buy a single-engine boat for 500K and do most of my own wrenching.

What are the costs? Obviously, fuel and food are going to be what I burn and eat.

What about:

Yearly insurance.
Moorings/dockage while cruising.
Approx yearly maintenance.
Hauling, bottom paint etc.

Can these be easily hauled and laid-up on the hard for the winter or is that idiotically expensive?

Thanks for any input.

 

[LovetoBoat]

Watching this thread - I have been wondering myself the same type of information.


If you buy a $500,000 boat - do you need another $500,000 to maintain and operate the boat for 5 or 10 years? Ball park is all I want to know...

 

[Sealife]

I’ll bite....
Depends!
Old vs. new
Where? US, where?, international?
Usage, dock queen or blue water?
Experience to insure 500k?
Etc.

Typically could haul every 2-3 years. We are on 6.

It all depends/variable.

We need WAY more info for an informed answer

 

[Sealife]

In rough numbers, it cost what you have

 

[DavidM]

A general rule of thumb is that it takes 10% of the purchase price each year to keep the boat maintained and upgrade its systems over time to keep up with current technology. Some years less but then some years a big hit happens.

Also a boat is a big depreciable asset. Even spending 10% each year to keep it in shape it will decline in value each year. Maybe 5-10% annually IF you spend the 10% on top of that.

David

 

[Blissboat]

A general rule of thumb is that it takes 10% of the purchase price each year to keep the boat maintained and upgrade its systems over time to keep up with current technology. Some years less but then some years a big hit happens.

Also a boat is a big depreciable asset. Even spending 10% each year to keep it in shape it will decline in value each year. Maybe 5-10% annually IF you spend the 10% on top of that.

David

What David said - budget 10% of the vessel's purchase price each year for as long as you intend to own it, and you'll come out about right.

 

[Comodave]

How much money do you have? Add 10% to that amount and you will be good. Seriously, if you have $500K don’t spend it all on the purchase of the boat. Usually if the boat is in good condition already you will spend another 10% updating the electronics and other things to get it the way you want it. If it isn’t in good condition then all bets are off. We dock behind our house so it doesn’t cost us anything for dockage. Our insurance is about $900 per year and the boat value isn’t the main factor in that as far as I can tell. Location and experience play a big role in the insurance costs.

 

[Jeff Lebowski]

All good points. More info...

I just threw the 500K out there from looking at used online. The boat will most likely be used. It looks like you can get a hell of a nice boat for that so I may spend less. I figure the house will be sold and we'll live on the boat, so I made it a big number. If we're going to live on it, I'll want size and a reasonable supply of goodies from an accommodation standpoint. Washer/Dryer, AC, etc. Watermaker?? I am planning on a single screw.

If we do this, it will be in Canada. My wife is from Victoria BC, but I don't plan on keeping it in Victoria. The water between Vancouver Island and mainland BC is supposedly a phenomenal cruising ground with hundreds of miles of rivers and bays on both coasts. I envision running up and down the island from Seattle to the island's northern tip, Port Hardy. I figure that we'll live on it for 5-7 months and then head for a warm spot for the winter and park it somewhere safe and secure.

I have 45 years of active boating. The first 10 on sailboats, the rest on power but nothing larger than my current boat, a 30-foot center-console with twins. I have a USCG Masters License but only a 25T rating with Assistance Towing. No experience with a large, heavy boat. I have no idea if that will help with the cost of insurance. But I'm paying almost $1100 per year now for insurance on a 100K boat. I have never filed a claim or gotten a DUI or any other felonies, etc.

I have heard the 10 percent rule. Does this include insurance and mooring fees or is this JUST maintenance?

Thank you all. I am in the research phase.

 

[kthoennes]

I've heard percentage rules a lot, and maybe they're accurate overall and long term but as a practical budgeting matter, it's never that even for us. Yes, we do have fixed expenses like clockwork -- slip fees, insurance, winter layup -- but beyond that we usually have expensive years and lower-cost years. 2021 will likely be an expensive year. New refrigerator, new alternators, new macerator just for kicks, two new batteries, some canvas work, new bottom paint, and we've decided the dinghy is too small for the family, although that's really a discretionary expense. Last year it was pretty much just a new water heater, new air conditioner controls and some more canvas refurb -- low cost year.

Well, besides the dinghy, a lot of our expenses are probably elective when you really think about it. We've chosen to keep the boat Loop-ready even though we're trapped on a section of the Missouri River for now. I don't want the caliber of the boat to erode over time and then have to eat a big expense to bring it back to Loop readiness all at once. I may replace the three bilge pumps because I simply don't like the wimpy, low-budget bilge pumps we have now. The anchor is way too small. Doesn't matter now really, but it'll matter on the Loop. The fenders don't match, we have a mix of white, black and green and that bugs me.

Depends largely on how fussy you are, what your maintenance standards are and how ambitious you are with upgrades.

 

[EngNate]

Well, you definitely sound excited, welcome and good luck. 10% to maintain the vessel in its current state of readiness, serviceability and preservation. Do not include any operating or keeping costs in this budget. No rule could be predictive of what your boat will cost you, but this comes from the averages of many experienced people over many years.

 

[MYTraveler]

A general rule of thumb is that it takes 10% of the purchase price each year to keep the boat maintained and upgrade its systems over time to keep up with current technology.

This is the conventional wisdom, but in my experience not very accurate. I bought my boat new, 10 years ago. For the first several years, costs were minimal (at least no where near 10%) as virtually nothing broke, and recurring costs, like insurance, dockage, bottom cleaning and paint, were no where near 10% a year. Now, stuff is failing. My crane burst a hydraulic line. Bilge pumps are failing. The teak will need to be sanded and re-calked. Even so, still not 10% of the purchase price. More importantly, let's say I sell the boat for half what I paid for it. Is the next guy going to save 50% on maintenance costs? Similarly, some boats are inherently more expensive to maintain than others. Keeping brightwork in top condition is expensive. I intentionally spec'd this boat to have zero bright work. The better approach is to budget expenses by category, many of which, most notably insurance and dockage, very tremendously by location.

FWIW, however, I have not spend 10% any year for the last 10 years. If I were to buy the boat used today, I still wouldn't be paying 10% of that price.

 

[tiltrider1]

This is such an impossible question to answer. It isn’t that I don’t want to try. It’s more of where is the starting line and what are the standards.

Do we start with a 10 year, 20, 30 or older boat. Is the standard varnish and chrome or is it work boat and brush paint. Will the boat leave the dock and if it does is it going local, across the straight, up to Alaska or down the coast. Is this a minimalist boat or does it have stabilizers, WD, air conditioning?

A 10 year old minimalist boat probably takes less than 10% of value in maintenance each year.

A 30 year old yacht that you wish to keep to the chrome and gloss standard will probably require 30% of purchase price in maintenance for a while.

If it’s a project boat it will cost 5x more than what ever you think.

 

[ghost]

Most systems are somewhere between 5 and 10 years between full servicing if you want to fix them at your convenience, not theirs. Ten percent is not a bad place to start, though admittedly arbitrary. At some point, it won’t just be fixing, but updating. Yes, you can get some nice periods if you proactively address systems, but beware, nature has a way of taking back a bit more just after profiting from a nice long run. I can’t explain it, I just know it. Like a charging failure prematurely kills some expensive batteries, overnight you are $5k poorer. Head gasket let’s go, maybe $8k poorer if you are not up for doing it yourself. Some things, while borderline “routine” can suck some serious cash in a short period. It just doesn’t take much.

Another perspective, a boat that costs 500k used cost much more to build. You don’t have the economies of scale the mfg did typically. The potential costs of major machinery or hull can easily exceed the value of the boat sometimes multiple times over if based on age. Basically, you could not build one for the cost of buying depreciated. So survey well, because some repairs could equal/exceed the value.

I bought a depreciated well respected boat in well serviced condition. I’ve mostly had to “keep up” and over 15 years on this last boat, that’s mostly what I have done, but over that much time, that’s a lot of cash. Still, now with a 40 year old boat, with the recent run up of boat values in the land of Covid, I am within 85% of purchase price, some very knowledgeable say significantly more, but let’s not get carried away counting our chickens. Bottom line is a moderately aged, fully depreciated, super good condition, good pedigree boat tends to hold value and in more than one economic run, even gain value. Still, the risks are there, and they are significant.

 

[Spinner]

Yes, that area of BC is fabulous boating! Only one navigable river that I am aware of though (Fraser).

Personally I think the 10% figure is not that accurate. It’s probably not bad if you are talking about a $50K to $100K boat. However, I am on my third boat and haven’t used anything like 10% for maintenance.

I do agree that you should hold back a reserve when you buy the boat. My most recent boat was in very fine condition when I bought it. I did spend some substantial $ adding a stern thruster and having a door created in the side of the cockpit.

Good luck on your journey’

 

[mvweebles]

The 10% is just a lazy generalization that is eye catching but not useful except to say owning a boat is expensive.

This ongoing thread on CruisersForum, a sail oriented sister site to TF, is helpful for understanding the cost categories. Sure, it's a sailboat in Florida (I forget where he is these days) but in post 1 of this thread is an XLS of his 49 months of living aboard.

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241436

 

[tiltrider1]

Yes, that area of BC is fabulous boating! Only one navigable river that I am aware of though (Fraser).

Personally I think the 10% figure is not that accurate. It’s probably not bad if you are talking about a $50K to $100K boat. However, I am on my third boat and haven’t used anything like 10% for maintenance.

I do agree that you should hold back a reserve when you buy the boat. My most recent boat was in very fine condition when I bought it. I did spend some substantial $ adding a stern thruster and having a door created in the side of the cockpit.

Good luck on your journey’

Except for your current boat, all your other boats were new. So yes you spent less than 10%.

 

[Jeff Lebowski]

I like this quote from Spinner,

"Bottom line is a moderately aged, fully depreciated, super good condition, good pedigree boat tends to hold value and in more than one economic run, even gain value. Still, the risks are there, and they are significant..."

This has been more or less my typical boat buy over the years. I typically get buy decent quality used boats in decent shape. The one time I bought junk I quickly regretted it every time I turned the key. I don't enjoy running junk, and I despise working on junk, so I will be looking for a decent quality boat in good to excellent shape. It's far easier to keep something sharp and nice than it is to get something there from a neglected state.

Thanks, Gents. I'll keep reading.

 

[tiltrider1]

I have a well maintained 30+ year old boat. December, replaced hot water heater and all that goes with it. $1,500 and I did the work. January, heat pump raw water circulation failed. $350 and I did the work. This is just how life goes on a boat.

 

[Spinner]

Ha ha true for the first 2.

My current boat is 18 years old. If I were spending anything like 10% of the purchase price for annual maintenance and improvements, I couldn’t keep it for very long!

 

[bayview]

$20+ k

 

[firehoser75]

Hi Jeff,
As you can tell, most here are not trying to evade your questions, it is just there are so many variables. For example, as Sue has stated, she does not spend 10% annually for her 18 year old Nordic Tug (worth $350-400,000??).
However, if you buy a 30 year old boat for $80,000 you will spend more than $8,000 per year. A huge factor is DIY or hire out the work. Costs increase drastically if you have to hire out all the time! Boat maintenance and repair is expensive to say nothing about "upgrades" and other additions.
Some of my examples of actual costs:
Annual moorage including dock electrical (at home port): $6,000
Insurance: $2700 (almost 20 years experience with no accidents)
Annual "basic" maintenance: Approx. $1000 (oil, fliters, other systems like plumbing)
Other repairs, larger maintenance., upgrades: Avg. $10,000 per year (so far)
Fuel: $2000 per year (200 hours at 2 gallons/hr, at $4.90 per gallon in Can.)
Other expenses would include haulout, transient moorage, pleasure expenses like restaurants, etc. etc.
Moorage (esp. for storage of boat) can be hard to find (in good locations) or come with very specific restrictions (like have to be out of marina by May 1 and not back until Oct. 1) and permanent moorage (year round) in a convenient location can be hard to find.
The waters here in BC/Alaska/ Puget Sound are very beautiful, with literally thousands of miles of coast line.
Good luck.

 

[Simi 60]

I have a well maintained 30+ year old boat. December, replaced hot water heater and all that goes with it. $1,500 and I did the work. January, heat pump raw water circulation failed. $350 and I did the work. This is just how life goes on a boat.

And a house.
And a car

 

[kthoennes]

I'm not a mathematician and I don't play one on TV, but I am a part time number cruncher in my professional life. I could chart this for you in Excel but it seems to me a blanket maintenance ratio or percentage really doesn't make much sense out of individual context. Seems to me it works like the attached chart. The ratio of X to Y is a variable, a moving target. Hopefully I'll never get to the point where my lines cross and I'm spending more than the boat is worth on maintenance and upkeep, but if we do keep it a very long time and say we repower someday, I can see how that could easily exceed the value.

 

[Chrisjs]

I actually have real answer to your question. In 2006 I purchased a used Selene 47 for approx. $500K. I used the vessel mostly during Summers except for one long cruise to the Bahamas. I sold the boat in 2014. During the ownership period, we cruised 1,500nm. This was a single screw boat. It was insured for full value. The boat was winterized and stored on the hard for 7 out of 8 years. Bottom was painted every year. Maintenance was performed as required using experts as needed and I did routine stuff. Including depreciation, ($100K difference between buying and selling prices), insurance, fuel, delivery captain, and everything purchased for the boat including all supplies, spare parts and upgrades, dockage, and Winter storage, the cost averaged out to almost exactly $40K per year. So the mythical 10% guesstimate is pretty close if you figure all in.

After selling, we figured that was equal to a lot of hotel rooms and airline miles, but we have not yet managed to spend the $40k/year yet on boatless travel!!

 

[Shrew]

Considering a trawler to live on for 5-6 months per year, perhaps more.

In very very rough numbers, say I buy a single-engine boat for 500K and do most of my own wrenching.

What are the costs? Obviously, fuel and food are going to be what I burn and eat.

What about:

Yearly insurance.
Moorings/dockage while cruising.
Approx yearly maintenance.
Hauling, bottom paint etc.

Can these be easily hauled and laid-up on the hard for the winter or is that idiotically expensive?

Thanks for any input.

The question is too vague. You can buy a 26 foot center console for $500K. You can buy a 44 Trawler for $80K. Make, Model, Size and Age will dictate the cost of the vessel.

The same applies to storage....LOA, Beam and location will dictate storage.

Maintenance....this is dictated by size and age. A 2019 single Outboard is going to have a dramatically different cost to service than a 40 year old diesel.

The same applies to hauling, bottom paint.

Insurance is about the only thing that is somewhat static based on replacement cost. Unless you're talking about an offshore racer (Fountain, Outer Limits, etc) Boats that go over 50 MPH tend to get a bit more pricey.

 

[Chrisjs]

I need to make an important correction to my previous post. I stated that we motored, 1,500nm during 8 years. That should have been 1,500 hours equating to approx. 11,000nm. It was too late to edit the earlier post.

 

[RonR]

On average for the last 3 boats (24'-33'-48') we have spent 20% of the purchase price within the first 3 months getting things in order and up to our standards. Keeping in mind all 3 boats were 30-44 years old. Some needed engine repairs, all needed bottom paint and props conditioned. Some needed interior updates, some needed system updates, or all new batteries .

Boat was 100k, I have put 20K into it in the last 2 months getting things in order as they should be


This is our 2021 budget plan for the 48'

12,000 for moorage/insurance
5000 fuel
2000 guest moorage
4000 Upgrades and repairs, tackel


Or about 23% of the purchase price all in for what we figure will be about 100-150 hours of run time. I probably use a bit more fuel than most, and probably pay for guest moorage more than others.

 

[RCook]

Here’s an example of ongoing costs. Size makes a lot of difference.

Our boat is a 2002 37 Nordic Tug. It’s a very nice coastal cruiser, but not capable of crossing oceans. Main berth is in the bow, with an almost queen size mattress accessible from each side. The second berth has two bunk beds. We bought it in 2016, with 1,485 hours on its single 6BTA 5.9 M3 Cummins diesel. In four years (prior to this fairly restricted cruising year), we’ve put 3,100 hours on it, traveling some 17,000 nm on the Inside Passage between Puget Sound and SE Alaska.

Slip costs, insurance, and annual tax, are about $5,000/yr.

She weighs about 28,000 lb loaded. With a big slow-turning prop, cruising at 7-7.5 knots (efficient speed for her length), she gets 3.7-4.0 nm per gallon. And some of that fuel is used by the generator and diesel furnace. Roughly $1/nm, or $4,000/yr for us.

Routine maintenance is done by me. Less costly, and helps me know the equipment.

Head maintenance, about $100/yr.
Four oil/filter changes per year, $80 each, about $360/yr.
Engine zincs, fuel filters, seawater impellers, belts, and other misc items, about $300/yr.

Replacing underwater zincs, by a diver, about $300/yr.
Bottom painting, by a pro, including haulout, every three years, about $700/yr.

Replacing/upgrading various old equipment with new, including batteries and radar (our only catastrophic failure so far), about $3,000/yr.

About $5,000/yr ($6,000 at most) plus fuel, slip, ins, tax, for a total of $14-$15K /yr.

About 5% of what the boat cost us when we bought it at 14 years old, in very good condition.

 

[Airstream345]

Hi Jeff,
Welcome to TF. Yes, there are many variables but in the interest of demystifying some of this for you I'll provide specifics based on our last year of owning a 54' single engine blue water trawler. Obviously, your mileage and costs may vary.

We spent a little over $300K to acquire our 1991 Kadey-Krogen 54. While the boat was mechanically sound in had well maintained systems but it had exterior and interior cosmetics to address (it spent a long part of its life in FL tied to pilings behind the owner's home so it showed signs of sun damage here and there) and a number of the house systems were older and due for an upgrade. Everything but one HVAC system worked when we bought her but all of the appliances were old and inefficient, the heads were original, the pumps and water maker hadn't been run in years, etc. So we replaced all of it.

My friends told me to expect to spend $100K to get her up to our standards in the first year. I think after a year of DIY we're closer to $75K and still have more to do this year. I expect to land the final refit which include adding paravanes, upgrading the electronics, upgrading finishes in the galley and heads and wrapping the hull for another $75K. That lands us around $450K for an upgraded, refit, three stateroom boat that can honestly cross oceans. Keep in mind a lot of this to date has been my labor and I’m hundreds of hours in to date.

PNW Moorage in the Seattle area is between $14/ft - $18/ft per month (less as you move away from Seattle).

Insurance runs about 1% - 1.5% of hull value per year (Puget Sound).

Fuel is a small expense overall given the efficiency of the design (<$2K per year).

In terms of value; KK54s have leveled out between $350K and $475K (according to soldboat.com data) and given the brand, reputation and the condition we’re bringing this boat back to I don’t think we’ll lose our shirt but I also don’t expect any windfall if we were to sell. Basically we’re at the bottom of the depreciation curve on a well found boat that will always have demand (unless some market macro goes haywire).

We also don't plan to sell for a long time and we live aboard full time so we don't mind investing to make things they way we want.

So, with all that said, I expect to get into the 10% of value range after the refit. Depending on the vessel, it’s condition and your desire for specific upgrade you might plan to spend more in year one and year two and less over time. I supposed over ten years we may well land in that 10% per year rule but it’s heavily front loaded for our vessel.

Good luck with your search!

 

[Brooksie]

Hard to generalize but certainly, if you buy a new boat, like a new car, you loose 30% the first time you cast off and a lesser degree in subsequent years. It is also doubtful if that loss can be offset by the fact that you have a warranty as things don't really start to go bad until the warranties are long over.
It has been my experience, that at a certain age, a well found/kept vessel begins to hold it's value and even appreciate. Then the question arises, which vessels and what does it cost to keep them well found in your area
I have always had good luck buying and selling by looking for desirable, unique, boats with simple, maintainable systems and doing all my own maintenance. Not loading up on electronics and other items which will be obsolete and valueless when selling helps as well.