Very basic and stoopit questions about costs...

[RedRascal]

There is plenty of good stuff in this thread and Portage Bay gave you a pretty good list for stuff associated with the purchase. Corrections may need to be made to the boat before it is insurable. Maybe a fire hazard or no bilge pump. Aside from anything serious then initial costs would go to things you may need to replace right away so the boat is useable to you. Maybe you'll need to replace, fix or add something on this list right away:

Decks and windows
Canvas
Dock lines and fenders
Dinghy & Motor
Anchoring
Cabins(Settee Upholstery and foam, Mattresses, Bedding, blinds/shades)
Galley(Stove, frig, propane tanks, grill)
Systems
-Engine Cooling(Heat exchanger, hoses, water pump)
-Engine Fuel(Tanks, pumps, injectors, filters)
-Engine Other(Turbos, exhaust elbows)
-Electrical(Batteries, Inverters, Charger, Wire, Breakers)
-Heat
-Hot water
-Pumps
-Black water
Electronics(Navigation, Radios, Depth Sounder)
Safety (Flares, Fire Extinguishers)
Dinghy & Motor

Some of the items above will quickly lighten your wallet by a few thousand. Others things will pick away at your wallet with a $100 here and there. Think new flares, fire extinguishers, smoke alarms and bedding can quickly become $400-1,000.

It may help to think about costs in 4 buckets:
1. Purchase(Boat, survey stuff, insurance, registration)
2. Immediate (Fix, replace or addition) If you're going to sleep on the boat it's nice to have smoke alarms and fire extinguishers. Maybe you need a new propane tank so you can use the stove. Maybe it's better fenders for your slip or it's time for a new heat exchanger on the engine.
3. Upgrades over time(New outboard, new cabin heat, new frig, new chart plotter)
4. Maintenance, pretty much everything wears out over time from exhaust elbows to hot water tanks to dock lines to the felt tracks that the windows slide in. When you shop for a boat try to gauge how old stuff is and where the big expenses will be for that boat. Like are the batteries new or 5 years old. Is the anchor chain all rusty or shiny. Is the dinghy shot or new. How many years is the canvas good for. Try to learn the know issues of whatever boat you are targeting and see if those items have been maintained or allowed to waste away. Think teak decks and fuel tanks. If you stay up on maintenance items that will help you budget for annual costs. Say in 2022 you replace the sanitation hoses. In 2023 you'll replace fresh water hoses and rebuild the fresh water pump. In 2024 you'll have the heat exchanges acid dipped for cleaning. 2025 will be new canvas. Having a maintenance and upgrade plan will help make the costs more predictable. That said the new batteries that the prior owner just put in could still develop a bad cell or you fry them so you have to plan for unexpected expensive because new stuff unfortunately will also find ways to fail. However usually the newer stuff is the better.

I think you'll do find since you're are trying to figure some of this stuff out ahead of time and have a plan.

Good luck with your search.

 

[Art]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Art View Post
Sounds as though you do not have much hands-on experience for either repair/maintenance boat-needs nor for piloting a boat. Those two factors may stumble you in more ways than one for successful boat purchasing and then long term ownership.

This is precisely the reason why I'm here.

FWIW, it's my intention to pursue a Captain's license and acquire requisite maintenance skills when the time comes. Everyone starts somewhere. But that's besides the point; what I was specifically asking about was the itemized costs that are baked into the purchase of a boat, because those aren't readily obvious to a new buyer.

Understanding what [that] one does not know and realizing [knowing] that one does not understand that [what] one does not know can pose nearly insurmountable hurdles for getting one to understand what it is that one does not know.

Good luck!

 

[MYTraveler]

People with $500K boats do very little of their own maintenance.

I haven't noticed that and suspect that the self maintenance decision is more strongly correlated with the type of maintenance and how much of it is required and the abilities and skills of the owner. If your point is that there is a price level above which owners generally prefer to hire out the work, based on my anecdotal experience, that point is much higher -- perhaps 10 to 20 times higher.

 

[Newtrawlerowner]

I'm in the process of researching for my first boat; although I grew up on large boats on the Great Lakes and in Southern Florida, this will be the first time the deed is in my name. In addition to figuring out costs of ownership, I'm trying to get a handle on the costs baked into the initial purchase, so I can more realistically budget and avoid surprise fees etc.

I've found spreadsheets that buyers use to compare boats head-to-head, but what I think would really help me is a spreadsheet that helps me lay out the itemized costs of the initial purchase. I don't know what I don't know, so I kinda feel like I'm flying blind here. I'd ask a broker for some help, but truth be told, I can't trust they wouldn't take advantage of my ignorance, given their profit motive.

Has anyone built out an Excel or Google spreadsheet for this purpose that I could use as a template?

As many had said already, the cost depends on a variety of factors.

I've been tracking my costs for about 7 years now, starting with a sailboat and now on a trawler. I allowed for an annual expense in the range of $25k. So far I've managed to stay well below that except these last 2 years where we are doing lots of neglected maintenance on a 2003 Mainship 400. Soft goods and electronics are expensive. New fly-bridge cushions $11k. New bimini $8k. New electronics $10k. Yes these are upgrades but even a $500k boat will need something upgraded.

PM me with an email address and I'll send you my 2021 annual cost spreadsheet.

 

[mvweebles]

Considering a trawler to live on for 5-6 months per year, perhaps more.

In very very rough numbers, say I buy a single-engine boat for 500K and do most of my own wrenching.

What are the costs? Obviously, fuel and food are going to be what I burn and eat.

What about:

Yearly insurance.
Moorings/dockage while cruising.
Approx yearly maintenance.
Hauling, bottom paint etc.

Can these be easily hauled and laid-up on the hard for the winter or is that idiotically expensive?

Thanks for any input.

A a full-time cruiser on CruisersForum regularly posts his very detailed spreadsheet - here's link to Month 57. Shows EVERYTHING. Sailboat so some adjustments, but likely close to a wash (new sails/running rigging vs fuel/oil change, etc.). TF doesn't permit .XLS files, but you can pull it from the CF post link below:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forum...f-cruising-and-living-on-the-boat-252044.html

His first couple years, averaged around $3500/mo. Has now crept-up to closer to $5k with some one-time maintenance and repair items.

Peter

 

[kthoennes]

...New fly-bridge cushions $11k...

YEOW!! What are they upholstered with, Peruvian yak leather? We just replaced our wrap-around bolsters on the upper helm, about 14' linear feet total, 6-8" wide on a curved starboard backing panel, just cost $500. And the canvas shop I used does not cut us a break at all. Next season we have to do the cushions (roughly seats nine people full area), I hope it hasn't gotten that bad.

 

[Newtrawlerowner]

Yes it was Peruvian Yak leather. Isn't that what everybody uses?

 

[kthoennes]

Uh oh, that means now we'll have to have to open a thread on which cleaning products work best on yak leather. Although I've heard Uruguayan yak leather has much better U/V resistance.

 

[Alaskaflyer]

Uh, the yak is endemic to Central Asia, and is not known for domestication in the Andes to any extent.

I suppose that would make Peruvian yak hide even more valuable.

 

[SteveK]

Uh oh, that means now we'll have to have to open a thread on which cleaning products work best on yak leather. Although I've heard Uruguayan yak leather has much better U/V resistance.

You must be joking. Use yak oil.

 

[ThatBeardedFella]

an older 34ft trawler might very well come with Lehman(s)

Your hunch is correct, sir! At least in the case of the trawler that I've got my eye on.

Ford Lehmans are probably still sub $200

This is encouraging, thanks!

 

[BruceK]

Uh, the yak is endemic to Central Asia, and is not known for domestication in the Andes to any extent.

I suppose that would make Peruvian yak hide even more valuable.

But first, you must catch your yak.
Yak butter is much used in Tibet,even in tea, rancid (often is),it`s used to condition leather.
Unreliable memory suggests the Monty Python sketch "Crossing the Andes by Frog". Probably harder than by yak.

 

[Group9]

People with $500K boats do very little of their own maintenance.

It depends on their background. My slip,neighbor, who coincidentally just sold his boat for $500,000 (and,is moving up with his next boat) does almost all his own maintenance and work on his boat, including oil and filter changes ( and, most of the of the engine maintenance). I remember him having trouble with getting the valves adjusted to his satisfaction for a while, doing it himself. But, he owns a construction company and I have a feeling he has been doing that kind of thing for a long time.

The only thing I’ve ever seen him pay someone to do,was washing and detailing the boat. He will be working in that boat all weekend, about every other weekend.

From what I have heard, he sure can afford it. I think it is his therapy. I know that’s what working on my boat is for me. But, I grew up on a farm. We fixed almost everything we owned ourselves.

I would say you are probably right in 90 per cent of the cases of $500,000 boats, though.

 

[SteveK]

Therapy, I like that explanation.
I think I changed the oil in one of my cars once or twice. I always change the oil in the bike and boat, plus do all the maintenance I can. The car goes to the shop mostly.
Yes therapy is a good explanation for clearing the mind of the daily grind doing something that you enjoy even if you could afford to pay someone to do it.

 

[mvweebles]

I've aquired my mechanical abilities first out of poverty, but later in life was driven by frustration of finding reliable and skilled labor. Money aside, it's often just faster to do things myself rather than go through the brain-damage of finding and scheduling someone. For routine oil/filter changes, stuffing box adjustment, raw water impellor, etc., just easier to do it myself.

That said, my preference with a decent mechanic would be to have him come every 3-4 service intervals and do a more complete check-up including adjust valves, check motor mounts, align engine, etc. Every 10-years or so (coincide with major trips), have a major service including swap hoses, belts, rebuild water pumps, etc.

Sort of a hybrid model I suppose. As far as owners of expensive boats not doing their own work, some of the best mechanics I've seen are a subset of Nordhavn owners. The owner of MV Dirona will tackle almost anything. I suspect that's because many owners of larger Nordhavn's are serial-owners. Had they not aquired self-sufficiency mechanical skills, they would have been overwhelmed and not purchased multiple boats.

Peter

 

[Group9]

Therapy, I like that explanation.
I think I changed the oil in one of my cars once or twice. I always change the oil in the bike and boat, plus do all the maintenance I can. The car goes to the shop mostly.
Yes therapy is a good explanation for clearing the mind of the daily grind doing something that you enjoy even if you could afford to pay someone to do it.

I have a friend who is a very successful lawyer, who is the same way at his home. He put a fence around his weekend home himself, taking several weekends to do it. I asked him why he didn't just pay someone to do it, and his answer was, "I like doing stuff like this. If I could make as much money building fences as I make practicing law, I promise you I would be a fence builder."

 

[kthoennes]

We lived next door to a United Airlines pilot for a while, long international runs, not Chicago to Philly so they were doing well, half million dollar house. He'd always mow the lawn himself with a push mower. Precise diamond pattern, alternating direction each time. He always said it was for the exercise and the metal peace and quiet concentration.

 

[Jeff Lebowski]

Believe me, a lot of United pilots are Type A borderline Aye-hole obsessive-compulsive whack-jobs. Just ask me how I know!

(Retired United Type Z pilot, full-on ******* yet not all that obsessive type. More like Jeff Lebowski)

 

[kthoennes]

I know what you mean. Burned out landscaping bulbs would be replaced within minutes next door. And they all matched in color and wattage. Their backyard waterfall and koi pond was meticulously maintained, even in sub zero winter. Current owner has allowed every light to die or get damaged by snow and never repaired, and the pond pump clogged and burned out and the waterfall is dead. Don't look Doug, you don't want to see it.

 

[Jeff Lebowski]

Someone brought up insurance,

How much trouble will I have getting insurance for say, a 43 Selene? The largest boat I've ever owned is the 30 in my picture. I've got a USCG Masters and 40 years of accident/incident and zero claims experience.

 

[Newtrawlerowner]

Someone brought up insurance,

How much trouble will I have getting insurance for say, a 43 Selene? The largest boat I've ever owned is the 30 in my picture. I've got a USCG Masters and 40 years of accident/incident and zero claims experience.

Go online or call Boat US/Insurance. They will give you a quote within minutes.


https://www.boatus.com/insurancequote

 

[backinblue]

Someone brought up insurance,

How much trouble will I have getting insurance for say, a 43 Selene? The largest boat I've ever owned is the 30 in my picture. I've got a USCG Masters and 40 years of accident/incident and zero claims experience.

Try Progressive. They asked very little about my experience and didn't even care to see the survey of the boat I purchased.

 

[ThatBeardedFella]

Try Progressive. They asked very little about my experience and didn't even care to see the survey of the boat I purchased.

That seems like poor business sense on their part. It's literally their business' purpose to manage risk. Personally, I wouldn't trust a life insurance policy that didn't require at least a basic medical exam.

Regardless... I'm curious to hear what people think of the various insurers available. Progressive, Hagerty/Markel... etc. It's one thing to compare them based on the premiums of similar policies, but what are their reputations for customer service and actually paying claims?

 

[River Song]

Boat US insurance

That seems like poor business sense on their part. It's literally their business' purpose to manage risk. Personally, I wouldn't trust a life insurance policy that didn't require at least a basic medical exam.

Regardless... I'm curious to hear what people think of the various insurers available. Progressive, Hagerty/Markel... etc. It's one thing to compare them based on the premiums of similar policies, but what are their reputations for customer service and actually paying claims?

Back when I had a boat in Texas, Hurricane Harvey came ashore near my marina and BOAT US was amazingly easy to work with and paid for all repairs. I was very surprised and impressed.

 

[backinblue]

That seems like poor business sense on their part. It's literally their business' purpose to manage risk. Personally, I wouldn't trust a life insurance policy that didn't require at least a basic medical exam.

Regardless... I'm curious to hear what people think of the various insurers available. Progressive, Hagerty/Markel... etc. It's one thing to compare them based on the premiums of similar policies, but what are their reputations for customer service and actually paying claims?

I'm not an insurance expert, but I'd guess that they have data that determines risk. I could change my homeowner's policy tomorrow and nobody is coming by to do a home inspection.

 

[Hippocampus]

Been sailing a long time. Did nearly all my maintenance and repair myself on prior sailboats. Not due to expense but rather our program meant often nowhere near a suitable mechanic. Think it’s similar with Norhavn, KK, Delta or like owners. The driver is self sufficiency.
Now on a powerboat and a clueless newbie. Will end up paying for service. Will watch and learn. Over a year or two will go back to doing more and more maintenance myself. Big difference was when learning sailboat maintenance had a circle of friends who could walk me through things and teach me. Now I don’t. Look at my yanmar and knew what each thing was and how to play with it. Look at the Cummins QSC 8.3 and don’t know what anything is beyond what’s self taught from the manual. Don’t have all the tricks of the trade to loosen or tighten things easily and without breaking things.
So for the OP. Your prior experience unfortunately doesn’t count as regards maintenance. Even if you can afford to pay you need to learn. Otherwise if something breaks and there’s no wrench nearby you can deal with it. Even more importantly you will know when something needs attention urgently before it totally fails. Also you won’t have any idea if the hired wrench did a good job unless you understand the job done.
Do a diesel course.
Pay people for now but watch them work. Be polite and don’t interfere with the pace of work but watch, ask questions and learn. Network will other owners of your type of boat and learn.