Boating and Cannabis

From Power and Motor Yacht.

https://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/at-sea/the-new-rules-of-boating-and-cannabis

Isn't there a test to determine THC levels, e.g. 0.08 for alcohol? And not just test for presence but a quantifiable level.

I think you are missing the point. Cannabis is still illegal federally. The USCG is a federal agency. Also, cannabis use can be detected in your body long after the effects wear off, so the whole enforcement issue is murky.

Yes there are tests for quantifiable amounts ( have been for decades).... when I was involved as a senior USCG official, the detailed tests were so outrageous for cost/complexity that it was impractical at the time. I believe there are more simple tests now but my guess the lack of wide acceptance is because their accuracy/inability to determine "high/influence".

I am sure it varies between states but some/many still go with "under the influence" and that can be for virtually any amount detected. Strange though, alcohol is still at some specific threshold.

Lots of legal opinions/clarifications on Google.

Though never in an article I have read, my background in the USCG suggests the feds are reluctant/ can't/ won't change drug laws due to being entangled in international treaties.

phillippeterson said:

Isn't there a test to determine THC levels, e.g. 0.08 for alcohol? And not just test for presence but a quantifiable level.

Click to expand...

My understanding is NO
The only tests I'm aware of ID presence but I didn't think it can quantify.

Even if quantifiable the fact that the compounds remain in your system for a long time (weeks?) make use of any test data difficult.

AFAIK The long residual presence makes use of testing difficult or impossible as an enforcement tool for any boating, driving, operating anything while ability impaired... thats part of what makes the legalization or not such a controversial subject. How would LEO apply use of marijuana to bus / taxi / uber drivers, charter capts, equip operators, etc. when it could have been consumed long (days / weeks) before the work / operation period.

It also raises another issue not boating-related. You can be employed in a state where it's illegal and vacation in a state where it's not. If you use cannabis on vacation then come back to work you could test positive for illegal drug use.

backinblue said:

It also raises another issue not boating-related. You can be employed in a state where it's illegal and vacation in a state where it's not. If you use cannabis on vacation then come back to work you could test positive for illegal drug use.

Click to expand...

It's worse than that. I work for a company headquartered in Denver - Colorado is a state where marijuana is legal. Company has a zero tolerance policy. If you test positive, you're fired. If you're an applicant and test positive, your offer is recinded.

I don't know why anyone would risk this type of situation - "but officer, I only had one toke." Outcome would be wholly dependent on the mood and disposition of the LEO involved. Trying to point out the error of his reasoning will not help the situation.

Peter

Bacchus said:

How would LEO apply use of marijuana to bus / taxi / uber drivers, charter capts, equip operators, etc. when it could have been consumed long (days / weeks) before the work / operation period.

Click to expand...

In the US most transportation workers are subject to preemployment, reasonable suspicion, after incident, and random drug testing. That includes commercial boat captains, truck & bus drivers, pilots, etc. If there's an incident in a commercial vehicle all involved get tested. Zero tolerance there and it's a condition of employment. If your employer thinks you're acting strangely (called reasonable suspicion, as a supervisor I had to take classes on that) they can test you. Penalty is at the very least loss of license. "Under the influence" is not debated, any presence or refusal to test is a violation. They test for pot, meth, opioids, amphetamines and cocaine. Alcohol is also tested after incident but that's a separate reg. It all started many years ago when two passenger trains collided head on killing hundreds. Both drivers bodies (they both died) showed high levels of cocaine. When I was actively working my Master ticket, I got random tested many times, the company had to send several members of the crews in at least four times a year. And I have to test to renew the license and before any new employment.

jgwinks said:

In the US most transportation workers are subject to preemployment, reasonable suspicion, after incident, and random drug testing. That includes commercial boat captains, truck & bus drivers, pilots, etc. If there's an incident in a commercial vehicle all involved get tested. Zero tolerance there and it's a condition of employment. If your employer thinks you're acting strangely (called reasonable suspicion, as a supervisor I had to take classes on that) they can test you. Penalty is at the very least loss of license. "Under the influence" is not debated, any presence or refusal to test is a violation. They test for pot, meth, opioids, amphetamines and cocaine. Alcohol is also tested after incident but that's a separate reg. It all started many years ago when two passenger trains collided head on killing hundreds. Both drivers bodies (they both died) showed high levels of cocaine. When I was actively working my Master ticket, I got random tested many times, the company had to send several members of the crews in at least four times a year. And I have to test to renew the license and before any new employment.

Click to expand...

We get random tests as well. A tester will show up and every crew member will have to test. I have had to test on my time off before (random). I get a fed ex envelope with orders to go to quest diagnostics and test within 48 hrs...Also got drug tested twice in one day... I took a required physical and was tested and returned to the tug which was having a random test..yup, tested again

Sailor of Fortune said:

We get random tests as well. A tester will show up and every crew member will have to test. I have had to test on my time off before (random). I get a fed ex envelope with orders to go to quest diagnostics and test within 48 hrs...Also got drug tested twice in one day... I took a required physical and was tested and returned to the tug which was having a random test..yup, tested again

Click to expand...

Haven't had it quite that bad but I did get tagged three quarters in a row. Other members didn't get tagged for years. They call it random, and it is.

Every industry is different.
In the '80's one in particular would provide supplements if your level seemed low!

So many opinions about it, but the reality is it's legal in some states, not in others, but illegal by federal law and, therefore, the CG does enforce it. Sometimes suspecting potential trafficking, will get very zealous. It would cause any captain to lose their license and it's presence can cause fines for boat owners and even loss of boats.

Only tests for determining whether one is under the influence are the standard field sobriety tests. As to determining possession if it's in a liquid or other form not easily detected, none of the field kits law enforcement was using work. The problem is they can't determine quantity. Now the equipment in labs can do so.

The laws can't even keep up with the market. Delta 9 is illegal in some states, so places started selling Delta 8 and states had to pass new laws. Then there is the magic 0.3% rule. Less is legal in all states. I find it hysterical how long it took for an enterprising girl to figure out a solution. However can you possibly sell gummies with up to 15 mg of THC? Simple. Make the gummies bigger.

Even within states where it's not legal, you'll see far different levels of enforcement. One LEO will say no big deal and another will cite you and refer to it as narcotics. Then you get to employers, as Weebles pointed out. I understand concerns operating equipment but employers have gone way too far in many cases testing for both illegal and legal drugs and forcing employees to provide evidence of prescriptions. Our business rules are no use within 10 hours of a work shift and no smell of it or tobacco. We can tell if employees are high by their work. We do not test for any drugs (other than truck drivers) except in the event of an accident or injury.

For our boats, our rules are no crew can use at anytime and no guests can ever bring it or any illegal drug aboard.

We really need to change all our approaches in our war on drugs as they aren't working and aren't consistent. I do worry about marijuana use as I do about alcohol use, as those like the ones in the article who "must" use it every day are addicted and likely impacted in many ways by the long term use. There is a huge difference in how your body is impacted by years of daily use vs. the occasional recreational use.

Brief rant against the latest insanity. Over 2/3 of all drug deaths are attributable to Fentanyl. Fentanyl test strips are widely available and accurate in determining it's presence. Yet, those strips are illegal in many states. The strips cost less than $1 each.

Back to the article, "Steve thinks marijuana should be treated like alcohol". Well, so do I, but what either of us thinks is irrelevant. It's illegal in many states and illegal on boats. This is without even considering travel to other countries and the serious consequences one might encounter.

jgwinks said:

In the US most transportation workers are subject to preemployment, reasonable suspicion, after incident, and random drug testing. That includes commercial boat captains, truck & bus drivers, pilots, etc. If there's an incident in a commercial vehicle all involved get tested. Zero tolerance there and it's a condition of employment. If your employer thinks you're acting strangely (called reasonable suspicion, as a supervisor I had to take classes on that) they can test you. Penalty is at the very least loss of license. "Under the influence" is not debated, any presence or refusal to test is a violation. They test for pot, meth, opioids, amphetamines and cocaine. Alcohol is also tested after incident but that's a separate reg. It all started many years ago when two passenger trains collided head on killing hundreds. Both drivers bodies (they both died) showed high levels of cocaine. When I was actively working my Master ticket, I got random tested many times, the company had to send several members of the crews in at least four times a year. And I have to test to renew the license and before any new employment.

Click to expand...

I am glad to hear that snd hope its universal. That still leaves the non commercial drivers that dont sign sny empliyment contracts. If any accident does a driver lise license for trace amt that.might be weeks old when its legal in that state?

Bacchus said:

I am glad to hear that snd hope its universal. That still leaves the non commercial drivers that dont sign sny empliyment contracts. If any accident does a driver lise license for trace amt that.might be weeks old when its legal in that state?

Click to expand...

If driving commercially, you will lose your license in every state. Use of the drug is cause, under influence not required. A non-commercial driver will only have their license impacted if convicted of driving under the influence. Under the influence is very difficult to prove.

Steve’s classic 34-foot trawler lazily swings on the hook.

Click to expand...

wrong, it is a 36 classic. Must be a typo.

There was no mention of where the substance was purchased. Does that matter, I wonder, if we brought the good stuff with us instead of buying local.

Before guests come on board, I ask if anyone has weed on them. If they say yes, with a smile. I tell them to leave it in their car. But it's legal in this state they say. Yes it is until we leave the dock. Then we fall under federal law. Not worth giving up my boat.

Believe this is still true...

"Final Thoughts on Interstate Transport of Marijuana

At the time of writing, it is entirely illegal to cross state lines with cannabis. It doesn't matter if you are traveling from one recreational or medicinal marijuana state to another; you can be arrested and charged with drug trafficking.Mar 4, 2020"

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

Before guests come on board, I ask if anyone has weed on them. If they say yes, with a smile. I tell them to leave it in their car. But it's legal in this state they say. Yes it is until we leave the dock. Then we fall under federal law. Not worth giving up my boat.

Click to expand...

^What he said^

Alaskan Sea-Duction said:

Before guests come on board, I ask if anyone has weed on them. If they say yes, with a smile. I tell them to leave it in their car. But it's legal in this state they say. Yes it is until we leave the dock. Then we fall under federal law. Not worth giving up my boat.

Click to expand...

We had to have that discussion with the kids they hired as wait staff on the dinner boat I used to drive. "It's legal here!" Yes, in the parking lot, but as soon as you come through the gate and board the boat it is not. And any prior use is not. That was just before the preemployment test for everyone, some of them didn't pass.

Interesting side note. There is really no good data that pre-employment drug testing effects on the job incidents/injuries.

I have worked in the medical industry for 35 years and have had multiple jobs with multiple healthcare entities. Some do pre-employment drug testing and some do not. I have been told (I have not confirmed this) that the main reason they do pre-employment drug testing is because it lowers insurance costs.

Chris

Run a dry boat. Underway no intoxicants of any sort including alcohol. Got snookered once. Crew lied on his application and questioning. Had nips hidden in his kit. Found one when doing the trash. He said no biggie and surrendered his stock. 3 d later tremulous and not focused. I carry wine and spirits. Took him off the watch rotation and allowed him just enough to prevent D.T.s. Later that year got a email. He didn’t realize extent of his addiction. Did do detox and 12 step. Wanted to thank me for not being confrontational.

My feeling anything that impairs function has no place when operating boats, cars, planes, trains or heavy machinery. Period.

Years ago when I was trying to break-in to the delivery business, I was bugging the guys at PAE telling them they need to hire me due to my teaching skills. They were tempted, but pretty distracted. One day I get a call that they have a customer who needs his new N46 delivered to Blaine WA, stones throw from the border. Now, my contracts all have dry-boat language, which he liked. He was in his early 60s and he and his wife had cruised a sailboat in the South Pacific when they were young and wanted to re-capture the spirit.

The owner was a heavy drinker and smoker. I didn't know much about alcoholism, but he was clearly gettin sick and wasn't sleeping. His wife told me the story - that going dry was a problem. He made it to San Francisco and I got the boat north with a crew. All good.

So....about 10-days later, I get a call from Dan Streech, president of PAE. "Hi Pete, just checking in. How did it go with Fred?" I'm thinking to myself 'dang it- I should have called them' but I was so busy I just went on to my next assignment. Dan starts asking me leading questions about how it went, were there any problems, etc. And then I get the whole story. Fred & Wife were nightmare customers. The boatyard where their boat was being commissioned near Dana Point banned them from the premises. Went through all of PAE's project managers. No one wanted to work with them. Which is why they gave me the delivery assignment - didn't want to burn one of their regular skippers. Dan was genuinely stunned the delivery went well. Wasn't my best ride, but wasn't too bad either. Fred/Wife were really appreciative and had a good time --- to the extent possible.

From there, I was first-string with PAE/Nordhavn until I exited the business to return to Corporate America. I guess my experience with executives played well with PAE customers.

Peter

trihartsfield said:

Interesting side note. There is really no good data that pre-employment drug testing effects on the job incidents/injuries.

I have worked in the medical industry for 35 years and have had multiple jobs with multiple healthcare entities. Some do pre-employment drug testing and some do not. I have been told (I have not confirmed this) that the main reason they do pre-employment drug testing is because it lowers insurance costs.

Chris

Click to expand...

Well I wouldn't want my aircraft mechanic work on my plane while under the influence.

trihartsfield said:

Interesting side note. There is really no good data that pre-employment drug testing effects on the job incidents/injuries.

I have worked in the medical industry for 35 years and have had multiple jobs with multiple healthcare entities. Some do pre-employment drug testing and some do not. I have been told (I have not confirmed this) that the main reason they do pre-employment drug testing is because it lowers insurance costs.

Chris

Click to expand...

I will bet $ there is no data to support that it doesnt make any difference.

Bacchus said:

I will bet $ there is no data to support that it doesnt make any difference.

Click to expand...

I'll go one further. Broadly, there are three scenarios. Being high has no effect on judgement and motor skills. Being high has a negative effect. Being high has a positive effect. Pretty sure the data would converge on the middle scenario without question.

It's been 35+ years since I've been high. I wouldn't want me driving my car when I was high. And I understand pot is much stronger now.

Peter

I closed down and sold my custom furniture shops three ago because (1) I had a very hard time getting employees to either take a drug test or or (2) pass one. I had seven hands running machines two of which were retired old timers who wanted to keep going instead of working fast food. They were my instructors and they couldn’t understand why some guys after lunch couldn’t figure out the job anymore. Making stupid layout and cut mistakes and costing money in waste. I drove into the shop one day and found three of them smoking reefer in their car. They told me in Michigan it was legal, okay so is alcohol but I can’t have you stoned running these machines. None of my saws or shapers are vegetarian — they will eat your fingers and hand without remorse. Had enough and shut er down. Don’t tell me getting stoned doesn’t affect performance or safety

Rick

I have a work buddy from Vermont, we always room together at national sales meetings and have become pretty close friends. Last year while on vacation he and his wife passed through our little county in rural Florida and so we took them on the flats boat to our favorite beach.


I don't smoke but he does. I don't really have an issue with it in a legal setting necessarily, I just don't enjoy it. He sometimes smokes in hotel rooms while we stay together and I don't partake (he always offers) I just sort of roll with it and say no thanks.


We get to the beach (by boat, it's an island with no car access) and they pull out a joint and fire up. I had no idea he had weed on the boat with him. I told him he had to get rid of whatever was left as it was not allowed on board. He was pretty taken aback, but did as I asked. Partly my fault, I guess, for not telling him ahead of time.


Weird times these days.

trihartsfield said:

Interesting side note. There is really no good data that pre-employment drug testing effects on the job incidents/injuries.

I have worked in the medical industry for 35 years and have had multiple jobs with multiple healthcare entities. Some do pre-employment drug testing and some do not. I have been told (I have not confirmed this) that the main reason they do pre-employment drug testing is because it lowers insurance costs.

Chris

Click to expand...

Doesn't impact insurance cost. Reasons for testing is executives believing and lumping all drug users together even while ignoring alcohol. They are under two illusions. First is that by pre-employment testing they'll eliminate drug usage. The only one that impacts is marijuana as the others clear so quickly. Second, is they believe every user abuses and all will perform horribly on the job. Also, untrue.

Now another reason for pre-employment testing that many cite is adverse selection. Word does get around quickly as to who tests and who doesn't. That pushes more users to those who do not.

We try to educate and develop good habits. We're open that if you're going to party, do it when you have the next day off. We teach that if you use marijuana every night, you have a problem. We don't say occasional use will cause them serious damage, but we do educate on the risks and effects of long range continued use.

We absolutely discourage all opioids, but we're honest there too in that moderate use of cocaine doesn't diminish work. If anything it provides energy and increases productivity. We encourage having Narcan on hand if using any hard drug and encourage fentanyl test strips if using any drugs. We also educate regarding the laws of the states we're in.

Our health insurance will pay for rehab and we will continue pay under our disability policies. Then with it all, by far the most abused drug is alcohol. One problem with alcohol that we see developing for marijuana is that it's socially acceptable. As marijuana becomes wider used and more generally acceptable, we foresee an increase in the number of users abusing it.

B makes an excellent point. I’ve never seen a death directly attributable to weed but while in practice a near weekly occurrence for alcohol.
I’ve seen wet brain, wernicke korsakoff, neuropathy, cardio and systemic myopathy non Wilsonian hepatolenticular degeneration, DTs, rum fits, the list goes on for alcohol. Nearly every system can be destroyed . Even in our tragic current epidemic with opioids alcohol leads the list for producing disease, disability and attributable death.
There’s studies going back to the sixties showing brain atrophy in heavy hashish users but not the list of gross multi system assault that alcohol produces.
There’s a distinction between habituation and addiction. Addiction requires drug seeking behavior. Habituation requires discomforting withdrawal effects. Just about all of us are habituated to caffeine. Pot doesn’t produce habituation. No withdrawal. Alcohol abuse does. One can be habituated and addicted to alcohol. Not possible for pot.

I wouldn't smoke weed in such places, as I prefer to smoke weed only at the end of the day, a few hours before I go to bed.