Anchoring again

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Greg QS

Greg QS

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2022
Messages
430
Vessel Name
Quiet Storm
Vessel Make
Nordlund 61
Hi guys. I have just finished our second season with our new boat the quiet storm. It is 65 loa and 75k.lbs. Running a CQR 105 lb plow. I have full chain with snubbers. I anchor every weekend rain or shine. I am having classic anchor dragging problems in storm conditions. I need to change my anchor to something more reliable. Anchoring is in classic soft mud and crowed anchorages in the north east.

I am a lifetime boater whit tons off anchoring time. Technique is not the issue.

Please can anyone in this size category chime in with what they run. The cqr is rated for the size but just dose not have the holding power I need. . I have never had good luck with the Plow style anchor. I gave this 2 good seasons to try with 6 pull/slides. I also have Fortress fx55 's on board. I keep one rigged in the lazarette for an emergency. They are rated too small for the size boat. Fortress should be a fx85. The fortress website says go up to 2 sizes bigger for storm conditions. This puts me into an fx125. Which is were I think I am going to go.


I ran a fortress fx 55 on my 42 sf 33 k lbs for 15 years. Never had a pull even in 60k storms several time. That anchor was 2 times bigger than what fortress said the normal anchor should be.

Real world recommendations for the size and weight of the style of boat would be appreciated.
 
The CQR is an ok anchor, but has been replaced by modern Mansun Supreme, Rocna, Spade, etc. In my experience any of these will provide double the performance as the CQR. So maybe go up one size and switch to one of these.

The Fortress is a great straight ahead pulling anchor and it provides more holding power for its weight than any other. But it doesn’t handle a 90 degree veer very well, much less a reversing current anchorage where it may sometimes end up with a ball of chain wrapped around it.

Those are my thoughts, but let the anchor wars begin. It has been a while since we had an all out war :rolleyes:.

David
 
For mud I do like the Fortress anchor. It also has a mud setting that may help.
 
I run a boat a few feet smaller (62' loa) and about the same weight.
I moved from an 88# Delta plow, which dragged only once through a soupy bottom in 20 knots of wind to a 110# Sacra Excel a few years ago.
The Excel has yet to drag, although here in the PNW we are blessed with generally firm bottoms, infrequent 30 knot+ wind conditions and a plentiful supply of well protected anchorages.

The Excel also fit the bowsprit mounted roller well and was in effect, plug and play.
Rollbar anchors or even a FX125 would require serious work to the foredeck to make them fit.
I also carry a FX85 as my spare, but in 15 years it has yet to see the bottom.

Good luck with whatever you chose.
 
Hi Greg,
First off, I do not have any personal experience with a boat your size, mine is with a 40 foot Nordic Tug (37) and 40 foot sailboat.
However, there are many accounts online that state that the CQR is one of the worst anchors when compared to most plow anchors (like Bruce), and certainly when compared to most "modern" anchors like the ones listed by DavidM. I second his recommendations. Find a modern design that has a reputation for working well in the type of bottom conditions you most often find, as well another factor will be how well it can fit your existing bow and roller setup.
Personally I have used a CQR (and did not trust it, also finding it difficult to set), but was much, much happier with a Rocna, and with a Vulcan. Here in BC waters both of those anchors set easily, never dragged (Rocna did once in a reversing tidal current with a rock bottom - my poor choice of location was the real problem), and gave me great faith in their holding abilities even when winds were above 30 knots.
Good luck
 
We switched to a "CLAW" anchor several years ago, and it always worked. We have a 80kg with 400 feet of 1/2" chain, and it always holds.
 
Just go with an appropriately sized (?+1) Sarca Excel, and you'll have no worries virtually ever. A Fortress as back-up for very soft mud might also be good, but you'll never get to use it. :D
PS I have no shares in Sarca, just know they are good. :)
 
Greg QS said:
Hi guys. I have just finished our second season with our new boat the quiet storm. It is 65 loa and 75k.lbs. Running a CQR 105 lb plow. I have full chain with snubbers. I anchor every weekend rain or shine. I am having classic anchor dragging problems in storm conditions. I need to change my anchor to something more reliable. Anchoring is in classic soft mud and crowed anchorages in the north east.

I am a lifetime boater whit tons off anchoring time. Technique is not the issue.

Please can anyone in this size category chime in with what they run. The cqr is rated for the size but just dose not have the holding power I need. . I have never had good luck with the Plow style anchor. I gave this 2 good seasons to try with 6 pull/slides. I also have Fortress fx55 's on board. I keep one rigged in the lazarette for an emergency. They are rated too small for the size boat. Fortress should be a fx85. The fortress website says go up to 2 sizes bigger for storm conditions. This puts me into an fx125. Which is were I think I am going to go.


I ran a fortress fx 55 on my 42 sf 33 k lbs for 15 years. Never had a pull even in 60k storms several time. That anchor was 2 times bigger than what fortress said the normal anchor should be.

Real world recommendations for the size and weight of the style of boat would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Greg, what I didn't see was scope ratio.
I'm definitely not a fan of CQRs, but to me, anchoring is a combination of anchor type and scope. IMO, CQRs definitely aren't a short scope anchor. So some insight into why the CQR and scope didn't work, would be helpful.

I'm very happy with my Original Rocna 33 anchor, but then I don't short scope any anchor. Probably anchored 400+ times in the last 8 years with it.

Ted
 
I had a 45# CQR on my 47' and never had a problem. Always set hard and fast but, sandy bottoms and no storms to speak of. Maybe 20-30 knot winds. When I bought Aquarius she was 60' and 64,000# before I added my junk. She had Fortress 55 on the bow and a 37 on the stern. I wanted a modern anchor and opted for the Mantus. Because I don't go out in storms, I actually undersized it. Mantus says 120# for storm conditions, I went with an 88. I still have the FX55 incase but the fortress needs 5 to 1 scope to be effective and the Mantus can get away with 3-1. I'm anchoring in 100' and that makes a big difference. I have 500' of chain but I hate to put that much out. I have never dragged with the Mantus but frankly I have never dragged with any anchor except that one time when my sailboat's Danforth laid on some kelp and never set. So, I agree with others that a modern anchor may be best but as you mentioned it may not fit your platform with out adjustment. My Mantus doesn't quite fit like I would like but it's working. One of the things I like about the Mantus is that 50% of the weight presses on the point helping it to dig in and also reset when necessary. Good luck. Lots of opinions here.
 
I’m a big fan of Rocna and would likely go with a 55kg/120lb for your boat. The new Mark II or a Vulcan would be my preference, depending on which one fits. The original roll bar Rocna of the same size would also be great and would be a huge improvement over your CQR. We run a 70kg/154lb Rocna on our boat (68’OA, approx 120k lbs) and its been terrific from Bahamas to Alaska in all kinds of conditions.

We have had lots of nights with 180degree reversing current from big tide swings and never had it do anything but stay set or reset with no significant movement.

The only reason to upsize further is if you ever need to go ultra short scope, which is better avoided if possible.
 
50kg original Bruce.
 
Greg QS said:
I also have Fortress fx55 's on board. I keep one rigged in the lazarette for an emergency. They are rated too small for the size boat. Fortress should be a fx85. The fortress website says go up to 2 sizes bigger for storm conditions. This puts me into an fx125. Which is were I think I am going to go.

I ran a fortress fx 55 on my 42 sf 33 k lbs for 15 years. Never had a pull even in 60k storms several time. That anchor was 2 times bigger than what fortress said the normal anchor should be.
Click to expand...


Do you have two bow rollers? If so, maybe FX-85 on one and a SARCA Excel/Rocna II/Vulcan/Mantus/whatever (pick one)?

Or if only one roller, FX-125 -- if it'll carry properly -- and declare victory.

-Chris
 
O C Diver said:
Greg, what I didn't see was scope ratio.
I'm definitely not a fan of CQRs, but to me, anchoring is a combination of anchor type and scope. IMO, CQRs definitely aren't a short scope anchor. So some insight into why the CQR and scope didn't work, would be helpful.

I'm very happy with my Original Rocna 33 anchor, but then I don't short scope any anchor. Probably anchored 400+ times in the last 8 years with it.

Ted
Click to expand...

I knew the storms were a possibility so long rode was laid out. During the storm the first line of defense is more rode. I was running at least 12 to 1. I run full 1/2 chain with bridal that puts the pull point at or below the water surface in 10' of water. By the time it was done probably 20 to 1.
 
70,000 lb. 47’, Rocna Vulcan, 3/8” chain w/snubber

Couldn’t be happier & we do a lot of anchoring.
 
guy with a boat said:
I’m a big fan of Rocna and would likely go with a 55kg/120lb for your boat. The new Mark II or a Vulcan would be my preference, depending on which one fits. The original roll bar Rocna of the same size would also be great and would be a huge improvement over your CQR. We run a 70kg/154lb Rocna on our boat (68’OA, approx 120k lbs) and its been terrific from Bahamas to Alaska in all kinds of conditions.

We have had lots of nights with 180degree reversing current from big tide swings and never had it do anything but stay set or reset with no significant movement.

The only reason to upsize further is if you ever need to go ultra short scope, which is better avoided if possible.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the practical information, just what I am looking for. I have a pulpit so I need to stay away from the roll bar models. That puts me into a Mantus 125lb, a vulcan 55 at 120lb. or a Fortress fx 125.
 
TF_BG said:
70,000 lb. 47’, Rocna Vulcan, 3/8” chain w/snubber

Couldn’t be happier & we do a lot of anchoring.
Click to expand...

What weight/model on the Vulcan.

Looks like 2 positive for the Vulcan.
 
Greg QS said:
Hi guys. I have just finished our second season with our new boat the quiet storm. It is 65 loa and 75k.lbs. Running a CQR 105 lb plow. I have full chain with snubbers. I anchor every weekend rain or shine. I am having classic anchor dragging problems in storm conditions. I need to change my anchor to something more reliable. Anchoring is in classic soft mud and crowed anchorages in the north east.

I am a lifetime boater whit tons off anchoring time. Technique is not the issue.

Please can anyone in this size category chime in with what they run. The cqr is rated for the size but just dose not have the holding power I need. . I have never had good luck with the Plow style anchor. I gave this 2 good seasons to try with 6 pull/slides. I also have Fortress fx55 's on board. I keep one rigged in the lazarette for an emergency. They are rated too small for the size boat. Fortress should be a fx85. The fortress website says go up to 2 sizes bigger for storm conditions. This puts me into an fx125. Which is were I think I am going to go.


I ran a fortress fx 55 on my 42 sf 33 k lbs for 15 years. Never had a pull even in 60k storms several time. That anchor was 2 times bigger than what fortress said the normal anchor should be.

Real world recommendations for the size and weight of the style of boat would be appreciated.
Click to expand...

Greg QS said:
I knew the storms were a possibility so long rode was laid out. During the storm the first line of defense is more rode. I was running at least 12 to 1. I run full 1/2 chain with bridal that puts the pull point at or below the water surface in 10' of water. By the time it was done probably 20 to 1.
Click to expand...

Greg, thanks for clarifying the scope.
I missed the part about soft mud in your first post. IMO, soft mud, reversing tidal currents, and CQRs don't go together. The CQR probably requires more setting effort than just about any anchor. When it reverses in sort mud with a tide change, it's not always going to reset. Let me put this another way, if it could do it 90% of the time, you wouldn't trust it. With scope between 12 and 20 to 1, you probably would have been better off with the fx55 as that has a much better reputation of resetting. With enough scope in modest winds, the friction of all that heavy chain in the soft mud is probably what held you in place, not the CQR.

For me, when anchoring in the soft mud of the Chesapeake Bay, it's all about the surface area of the anchor and its reputation for a reliable reset. The big Fortress may be a good choice for you in soft mud. My only knock on them is that because of their light weight, I haven't had good luck with mine penatrating pebblely bottom, very hard bottom, or grass. I have a smaller Fortress that I use for a stern anchor in protected areas without reversing currents. Probably a good reason to have another style available for different bottom conditions, should you choose a Fortress for soft mud.

Ted
 
I've been very happy with my Vulcan (33kg / 73lb model on a 38' LOD boat, 27,500 lbs loaded). I'd think the 55kg / 121lb model would be a good fit for you.

Realistically, I'd look at all of the modern anchors that test well in the SV Panope tests and choose based on which one of them will fit best on your pulpit, or which one will fit in the largest size. Many of the manufacturers give dimensions and/or templates you can print out and mock up.

A huge Fortress is a good idea as a backup for very soft mud, but I wouldn't use it as a primary anchor.
 
I have been going through the sv Panope videos there for a while. It was hard to find him comparing the fortress to the new plow anchors. I found this there today. In the results its clear the fortress excelled, in sand, mud, surf sand, even cobblestone than the other plow anchors. In the video he mentioned due to the different style he was going to keep the anchors in a different class and not compare to the plows because it was a different animal. He also had a problem getting the anchor to dislodge from the bottom. It seems to simply stay down better. This minimizes the re engaging factor if it does not disengage in the first place. The only trouble I ever had with the fortress was in weed. Not setting, but ff the anchor pulls the weed plant. The weed on the anchor will jam between the flukes and shaft and not clear. It never re engage itself. I see the benefit of the plow here.

For me , up here in the north east there is always a combination of sand/ mud , soft mud, soupy mud, or straight sand and sand cobble stone. Looks like the fortress simply excels in these conditions. Still trying to find test data on the actual size anchors I am looking at . Vulcan 55 and fortress fx125. Both are considered in the storm anchor category for my vessel. If the pattern holds true the fortress will be the winner.

I guess the big question is the Vulcan 55 with the re setting, clearing, and rock/coral, ( for the Bahamas later) a better all round fit. Will this anchor keep me stationary ? Is the fx125 just overkill?
 

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I think the Fortress was selected for some vessels in the USCG and US Navy.

I think they are a great anchor..... and in larger sizes, and in many situations as they performed as advertised.

Smaller ones suffer greatly (from experience and numerous reports made to me by former captain's license students of mine) from the inability to penetrate some bottom types and can jam just like Danforths if rocks or shells get between a fluke and the shaft. Other have reported that they are so light, they flutter down and foul the rode/chain before they hit bottom.

I know, I know .....some seem not to have similar problems but again, from my own experiences and just too many dissatisfactory reports, I would never use a mid size to smaller Fortress as the primary/pulpit anchor. In an emergency, I will not depend on something I don't trust. But I happily carry one as a storm/back-up anchor as I have the luxury then of making sure it is finally set.
 
Positive results with Vulcan and now a Spade in sand and stiff mud. If soupy mud go up a size. Both excellent in reversing current.
 
psneeld said:
I think the Fortress was selected for some vessels in the USCG and US Navy.

I think they are a great anchor..... and in larger sizes, and in many situations as they performed as advertised.

Smaller ones suffer greatly (from experience and numerous reports made to me by former captain's license students of mine) from the inability to penetrate some bottom types and can jam just like Danforths if rocks or shells get between a fluke and the shaft. Other have reported that they are so light, they flutter down and foul the rode/chain before they hit bottom.

I know, I know .....some seem not to have similar problems but again, from my own experiences and just too many dissatisfactory reports, I would never use a mid size to smaller Fortress as the primary/pulpit anchor. In an emergency, I will not depend on something I don't trust. But I happily carry one as a storm/back-up anchor as I have the luxury then of making sure it is finally set.
Click to expand...

Obviously I am not talking about there smaller anchor. The fx125 is 1 size over the fx85 that is recommended. The "storm" classification is the 125. I do anchor a lot and I don't see the point of running a smaller anchor and have to change the anchor for the sudden squall. The hydraulic windlass never complains about the larger anchor.

The cqr is just not a good fit. Nothing like negotiating anchor balls and boats at 4 in the morning while anchor is out and only smi holding you in a driving rain and 0 visibility. Its not a simple process to go out , pull the snubber, leave out more rode and/or retrieve the anchor in a storm. Much easier just to stay put.
 
The thing about the Fortress (and Danforth) is that it's kinda special purpose. In the situations where it works well, it works really well. But they sometimes struggle to set in harder bottoms or weedy bottoms. And unless in a fairly soft bottom where it can be buried deeply, they can struggle with direction changes.



The really good holding power in some bottoms makes them a great second anchor to have on board, but in my opinion, their performance isn't well rounded enough for a good primary anchor.
 
Greg QS said:
Obviously I am not talking about there smaller anchor. The fx125 is 1 size over the fx85 that is recommended. The "storm" classification is the 125. I do anchor a lot and I don't see the point of running a smaller anchor and have to change the anchor for the sudden squall. The hydraulic windlass never complains about the larger anchor.

The cqr is just not a good fit. Nothing like negotiating anchor balls and boats at 4 in the morning while anchor is out and only smi holding you in a driving rain and 0 visibility. Its not a simple process to go out , pull the snubber, leave out more rode and/or retrieve the anchor in a storm. Much easier just to stay put.
Click to expand...

I did a lousy job of it I guess, but I wasn't trying to imply a large Fortress wasn't a suitable all purpose anchor as the military gave it the nod.

I just don't trust the smaller ones as I posted before except in special situations.
 
I have a couple of years boating starting in the 1950s and found out way back then to always go up at least one size from the recommended size plus I always used 7:1 scope as a minimum. I resisted the modern anchor as I was always happy with my real Bruce but recently I bought a Spade after lots of research, I liked the Rocna but didn’t care for the hoop. Since using the Spade I have never had it drag or not set immediately. I would buy another in a heart beat. I also use an all chain rode.
 
Perhaps the key to this is your comment that they are crowded anchorages. We went around the world in Sweetwater (57' loa, 60,000# loaded for voyaging) using a 75# Genuine CQR and 3/8" chain everywhere. The only times we had to work at getting anchored was when there was only a thin layer of sand over coral. Never dragged after setting the anchor. Sweetwater is a little smaller than Quiet Storm, but with an 82' mast, I suspect the windage is similar. So a 105# CQR should be holding you.



I'm going to guess that in crowded anchorages you aren't using much scope. I never go less than 5:1 and shoot for 7:1 when I can get it.


Although I have had much good luck with the CQR, Morning Light has a Rocna and I suspect that's what I will have on the new boat.


Jim


Sweetwater - Swan 57 sloop - circumnavigated 1995-98
Fintry - x Royal Navy Fleet Tender 2003-22 20k miles including x-Atlantic The Fleet Tender Fintry
Morning Light -- Webbers Cove 42 trawler 2021- 23
Going back to sailing now that Morning Light is sold.
 
@Greg, my 65 footer was about 50 tons. I had a 60lb Danforth because that's all the weight I could lift over the handrails (no bow roller). I also carried a 100+lb in the lazarette for storms, although the 60 worked just fine even with boat rotations.

On another boat I had a CQR, oversized like crazy, but never liked it. I wound up forcing a buddy of mine to take it for free, just so I could get rid of it.

However in today's world I wouldn't specify an old-school anchor anymore. We have better technology and designs today. Keep your Fortress of course as a kedge, stern anchor or backup.
 
I have a 49' Defever with a 110 lbs Sarca Excel and 520' of 13 mm (1/2 inch) chain. It does take effort to set the anchor, but since I calculate the forces the wind can put on the boat (and then determine how much chain I need) we never drag and we never pull the anchor out when the wind shifts. We turn around the anchor chain, not around the anchor.

I happened to decide on a Sarca, but am pretty sure other anchors are just as good. Just the one I had before was not meant for the kind of bottom conditions we encounter. And I guess that is the most important issue, find an anchor of which you know it works well in the conditions you encounter 80 % of the time.
And as others have stated, make sure you get 2 sizes larger than what is advertised for your boat.
We have 110 lbs for a 49' and 28.000 kg, so for your boat I would probably decide on a 139 lbs anchor or even an 194 lbs. Sounds over the top, but the moment you find yourself dragging in 35 or 40 kts wind.............you wish you had taken the heavier version. For my boat the 79 lbs was advertised, I went for the 110 lbs version and sleep very quiet, even in bad weather. It is like being attached to a mooring buoy.
 
Same ballpark trawler: 62’ 48tons. Full time live aboards. Anchoring 50% of time from artic norway to southern Med. 75kg Spade SQ240 never fails. Setting and resetting can’t be beaten. Because of led in tip fluke area bit smaller at same weight hence take a bit oversized. Lack of buegel makes it fit nice and no problems with jammed up mud like Rocnas that won’t reset in such circumstances.
 
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A CQR was the worst anchor I ever used. Most of my cruising is in the Bahamas where you can see the bottom and pick your spots. Then I dive the anchor to see that it's set. I could never get the CQR to set to my satisfaction and that is even when diving and trying to place it so it digs in. It was a real CQR and not some knock-off.

I am a big fan of Delta anchors - but again I'm 99% in sand. I had one incidence in 40 years where it dragged in soft mud.

There are some grassy spots that have given me trouble with Danforth type anchors. The conservationist in me makes me try to avoid the grass, but sometime the only available spot is very small sandy spot in the grass anchorages and the Danforths can have trouble digging in and seem to skip over the grass. Otherwise they work fine for me also.

So my bow pulpit has a Delta and I carry a decent size Fortress for backup since I can lift it out of it's locker and connect it to a spare chain/rope rode already installed in the anchor locker.

On a side note: My son has a small - maybe one size up from the smallest Fortress for a lunch hook for his 31 Contender. He had several boats rafted up to him at a local airshow and the fortress was the only anchor out of 3 or 4 boats that would stick.
 
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