Wireless Docking Remote Controls - What's The Magic Number?

mvweebles said:

My friend is one of the best helmsmen I've ever seen. His close quarter skills are excellent, better than mine and I'm no slouch. Wireless remote is a tool that makes using his boat more enjoyable. Does he need it? No. He just likes it and it does allow him more confidence to approach certain situations. But he has nothing to prove as far as a yachtsman. He loves being in the water and while the wireless remote doesn't add so much as a minute of additional time on the water, he just likes having the ability to be mobile if needed.

Peter

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I feel I'm no slouch at close quarters and can make our boat go virtually sideways with bow thruster and fenced rudder.
I had a crack at a remote on a friends boat and sorry, its not for me. I think over time you'd get lazy and lose your skills.

vertigopilot said:

It appears that several have taken umbrage and mistaken my reason for asking the questions in my original post. I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone here, but merely sought to learn from some examples why it is that many choose to go without the significant safety and convenience improvements that come from having and using wireless docking controls. I may be guilty of being an evangelist, but I'm certainly not trolling for customers. It's disappointing that my inquiry engendered such a negative reaction. I hope that won't deter others from discovering the advantages of incorporating this technology category into their boating experience, regardless of which manufacturer's product they select.

Wired/tethered docking controls may be extremely affordable (particularly the home-cooked variety), but they fall well short of the potential of wireless controls.

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Fair question. Mainly Price. I looked into it and it was 20K . At the time I had a lot more pressing items for the 20k. I see the convenience of it all. I opted for a wired Glendenning version. 3500 or so

Auxiliary Control System (Optional)​

Up to 8 other propulsion functions can be added to the Handheld Remote through the Auxiliary Output Function Unit (i.e., engine stop/start, bow/stern thruster, and rudder control).

This one?

base system will run two engine transmissions and rpms so don’t understand what else a wireless system would offer as regards function.


It offers option to have multiple plug ins. One in pilot house and one in rear cockpit should cover any situation. Would seem more reliable than wireless.

Hippocampus said:

Auxiliary Control System (Optional)​

Up to 8 other propulsion functions can be added to the Handheld Remote through the Auxiliary Output Function Unit (i.e., engine stop/start, bow/stern thruster, and rudder control).

This one?

base system will run two engine transmissions and rpms so don’t understand what else a wireless system would offer as regards function.


It offers option to have multiple plug ins. One in pilot house and one in rear cockpit should cover any situation. Would seem more reliable than wireless.

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What a wireless system offers that wired aux systems cannot is the ability to perform the essential propulsion functions from anywhere on the boat or on the dock, eliminating the dock-line duties for your significant other, and making the task of anchoring a solo function.

In theory a wired station should be more reliable, but my experience in practice has been that they are not. On several boats in the last year where I was called in to diagnose propulsion control anomalies, I found corrosion in wing stations or wired remote connections to be the source of the issues. The added advantage of a wireless docking controller is that it is stored inside and dry, away from salt water, waiting to be called into service.

Another gripe that I've heard is that most wireless docking controllers are not set up to manipulate throttle and rudder. I find that to be a somewhat odd quibble because the boat speeds and conditions for which wireless docking controls are intended do no require or benefit from changes to rudder or throttle. A docking control is generally unsuitable for use as a wireless helm underway. That is a different piece of equipment.

Bmarler said:

Remote controls, whether wired, or wireless, fall into the nice to have, but not needed category. A lot of us here have older vessels, and a mix of equipment being old or new, different manufacturers, etc…
For me, I’d have to put in electronic shift/throttle, and then figure out how to interface with the thrusters and auto pilot for a true control solution.
Since I have a mate with me, I can be the controller, and she is my hands. Works pretty well.

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You are surely more fortunate than most in that you have refined a method of reliably docking your boat in all instances in a manner that eliminates apprehension or emergency, and satisfies your mate. Most of the boaters I meet at the dock have not yet found your formula.

wfleenor said:

I bought a dockmate... One day I came in and stopped at the pumpout and switched to remote there. It was a particulatly windy day and when turning stbd off the pumpout I was unable to turn back port against the wind with only the idle speed offered by Dockmate... I think there is an idle boost that would likely resolve this issue. BTW - it is always windy at this marina, even the wifi password includes the word windy - it was just a particularly bad wind day.

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Thanks for that report. Another alternative to having throttle bump on the wireless transmitter is to add a high idle option at the helm so that when you activate gear shifts in windy or strong current conditions you get that extra bit of propulsion. I've installed this option on several boats and consider it more accident-resistant than doing it on the wireless transmitter.

vertigopilot said:

In theory a wired station should be more reliable, but my experience in practice has been that they are not.

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All I can say is I've probably been in about 100 docking situations where a remote control was used. In two of those instances, the controller was, despite being stored inside, non-operable due to corroded battery terminals which destroyed the controller. Replacement cost was over $1500 each.

I have been on well over 50-boats (perhaps 100) in that had wing stations in 1000's of docking situations (and 100's more that had traditional upper/lower helm stations). I have never experienced a failure that would have been resolved by a wireless controller. I have experienced failure of electronic controlled throttles but that was a much more serious fault - certainly not something that could be cured by a wireless controller.

I appreciate your zeal in selling your product, but in my opinion, saying a wireless remote is more reliable than a wired station is very difficult to support. I understand the value proposition for convenience and understand the safety argument of having a roaming captain. But to imply safety due to improved reliability over a wired station is a bridge too far for me.

Best success in your endeavors.

Peter

So, who does this kind of install? I'm slowing down and it's getting harder to hustle outside from the helm to handle my own lines. I'm thinking a wing and a cockpit wired remote would be best for me, but I'm looking at engine controls from one manufacturer, thrusters from another, auto pilot, windlass .... - and I just don't want to figure all that out. My yard certainly couldn't. What kind of search parameters do I need?

mvweebles said:

All I can say is I've probably been in about 100 docking situations where a remote control was used. In two of those instances, the controller was, despite being stored inside, non-operable due to corroded battery terminals which destroyed the controller. Replacement cost was over $1500 each.

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Yes, and that's a great example of why one should always confirm the readiness of the wireless controller to perform its functions BEFORE leaving the helm. That's just good procedure, along with removing the batteries before storing the transmitter when in Florida or similarly humid environments.

mvweebles said:

I have never experienced a failure that would have been resolved by a wireless controller. I have experienced failure of electronic controlled throttles but that was a much more serious fault - certainly not something that could be cured by a wireless controller.

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Agreed to the extent that the failure of electronic propulsion controls is a serious fault, and is almost certainly not curable by a wireless docking control, nor for that matter by a wing station or wired remote station. The vast majority of electronic propulsion control failures result in a transmission stuck in gear (usually reverse), or shifting into forward gear on their own. The reverse stuck failure is almost always a result of malfunctioning shift servo motor in the control box. An unplanned forward shift is almost always the result of an over-voltage event in the control box triggering a shift request on its own. However, these anomalies are related to older analog electronic controls, and do not manifest in newer CANbus controls.

I appreciate that you have not experienced wing station failures over a respectable data set. I suppose that my experience differs from yours primarily because the first time that I generally step onto a boat is after it has experienced control anomalies. I have dealt with repairs where the wing stations were source problem that brought down the entire control system. Wireless controllers don't cure those situations, but they also don't cause them in the first place, at least not properly implemented controllers.

mvweebles said:

I appreciate your zeal in selling your product, but in my opinion, saying a wireless remote is more reliable than a wired station is very difficult to support. I understand the value proposition for convenience and understand the safety argument of having a roaming captain. But to imply safety due to improved reliability over a wired station is a bridge too far for me.

Best success in your endeavors.

Peter

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Please don't mischaracterize my motives; I'm not trying to sell any product, but only to engage in open discourse on the benefits of the technology from my perspective as a developer and technician in this field. I have no illusions that I would ever sell you anything.

Every control system has advantages and weaknesses. But one important weakness of a wired wing station that a wireless controller does not share is the capacity to bring down the main helm control.

LongJohn said:

So, who does this kind of install? I'm slowing down and it's getting harder to hustle outside from the helm to handle my own lines. I'm thinking a wing and a cockpit wired remote would be best for me, but I'm looking at engine controls from one manufacturer, thrusters from another, auto pilot, windlass .... - and I just don't want to figure all that out. My yard certainly couldn't. What kind of search parameters do I need?

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It would be easier to suggest someone if we knew a bit more about your location and your existing helm controls, engine(s) and transmission(s).

vertigopilot said:

Another gripe that I've heard is that most wireless docking controllers are not set up to manipulate throttle and rudder. I find that to be a somewhat odd quibble because the boat speeds and conditions for which wireless docking controls are intended do no require or benefit from changes to rudder or throttle. A docking control is generally unsuitable for use as a wireless helm underway. That is a different piece of equipment.

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On a relatively high-powered, twin screw boat I agree that rudder and throttle aren't that important. On a low-powered, single screw boat, rudder and throttle are essential maneuvering tools, especially when wind or current are significant.

vertigopilot said:

,...............Wireless controllers don't cure those situations, but they also don't cause them in the first place, at least not properly implemented controllers.......

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Since you haven't divulged your product or source of marine profession, I can only speculate, but phrases like "installed properly" always raise an eyebrow. To my ears, what that really means is that if it doesn't work, it's not their fault - good luck with tech support or warranty claim. And let's not forget, electronic helm controls are incredibly reliable as long as they're installed properly too so you're comparing a properly installed system with an improperly installed one. Which one is easier to install and maintain properly? My money would be on wired wing stations.

I have no issues with companies hawking wireless controls as a convenience item. Makes a lot of sense in somes cases. Where I push back are the claims of enhanced reliability and the derogatory characterization and reliability of wired systems it's a FUD approach that turns me off (fear, uncertainty, doubt). I do realize many planes and vessels are fly-by-wire, but they were designed from scratch with backup and rigorous testing. Not mysterious Internet claims.

You are correct that you won't sell me a wireless system. But if I owned a boat where the use case warranted one, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one as long as the purchase process did not rely on an opaque sales pitch. It's a red flag for me.

Peter

Retriever said:

On a relatively high-powered, twin screw boat I agree that rudder and throttle aren't that important. On a low-powered, single screw boat, rudder and throttle are essential maneuvering tools, especially when wind or current are significant.

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Agreed, with the additional distinction that in the low-powered single-screw example the boat is also lacking bow and stern thrusters, in which case it is not a suitable candidate for wireless docking controls in any event.

mvweebles said:

...
You are correct that you won't sell me a wireless system. But if I owned a boat where the use case warranted one, I wouldn't hesitate to buy one as long as the purchase process did not rely on an opaque sales pitch. It's a red flag for me.

Peter

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Not every opinion expressed on a topic by someone who is regularly engaged in that topic professionally is a "sales pitch", and I'll decline to resolve your gripe on opacity lest you then complain of solicitation. I am however relieved that we've reached clarity that I will not sell you anything, nor will you buy anything from me.

Cheers!
Jim

vertigopilot said:

Agreed, with the additional distinction that in the low-powered single-screw example the boat is also lacking bow and stern thrusters, in which case it is not a suitable candidate for wireless docking controls in any event.

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Even with thrusters, rudder and throttle are always nice to have and essential in certain conditions. I've done tens of thousands of miles with a single screw and bow and stern thrusters--both hydraulic and electric--and regularly encounter situations that require prop & rudder in addition to thrusters. Plus it's a lot more fun and elegant to maneuver with the rudder and gear than grind away on thrusters.

A wireless remote without rudder and throttle control just isn't that useful for the boats I use. In the trickier situations where it would be most helpful, it might also lack the controls to do the job.

Retriever said:

Even with thrusters, rudder and throttle are always nice to have and essential in certain conditions. I've done tens of thousands of miles with a single screw and bow and stern thrusters--both hydraulic and electric--and regularly encounter situations that require prop & rudder in addition to thrusters. Plus it's a lot more fun and elegant to maneuver with the rudder and gear than grind away on thrusters.

A wireless remote without rudder and throttle control just isn't that useful for the boats I use. In the trickier situations where it would be most helpful, it might also lack the controls to do the job.

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With all respect, you must be a rare captain indeed who would competently manage the additional variables of rudder and throttle from a remote device without getting yourself into a jam. I've had many requests for such configurations, but only actually provided them twice, both times to very experienced professionals who had the credentials and demonstrated ability to handle them reliably (in my humble estimation) on their 60' trawlers. In both cases they later told me that ultimately decided to forego variable throttle and rudder manipulation while docking with the wireless controller.

It is a demonstration of grace and excellence to bring a vessel smoothly to dock without thrusters, but it is often far more impressive to onlookers when you single-hand the boat precisely to the dock while moving between the foredeck and the cockpit with only the slightest movement of your thumb.

Few can consitently accomplish the former, while almost any boater can consistently deliver the latter.

vertigopilot said:

With all respect, you must be a rare captain indeed who would competently manage the additional variables of rudder and throttle from a remote device without getting yourself into a jam. I've had many requests for such configurations, but only actually provided them twice, both times to very experienced professionals who had the credentials and demonstrated ability to handle them reliably (in my humble estimation) on their 60' trawlers. In both cases they later told me that ultimately decided to forego variable throttle and rudder manipulation while docking with the wireless controller.

It is a demonstration of grace and excellence to bring a vessel smoothly to dock without thrusters, but it is often far more impressive to onlookers when you single-hand the boat precisely to the dock while moving between the foredeck and the cockpit with only the slightest movement of your thumb.

Few can consitently accomplish the former, while almost any boater can consistently deliver the latter.

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You may want to re-read Retrievers post. He was clearly speaking of single engine boats. Far from rare, a single, even with thrusters, requires throttle and rudder control during close quarter maneuvers.

As far as using rudder and throttle for twins, far less frequently used but there are times when it's handy, and many owners like to experiment and eventually discover ways to use tweaks of rudder and throttle.. Interesting that your firm won't satisfy that request unless the buyer demonstrates competency to your satisfaction.

Peter

Don’t have the expertise of many here. However in my limited experience have seen the plug for the wired controller to be inside the pilot house ad not exposed to weather. When docking side doors are left open and wire is long enough to allow direct vision of the situation.
Have more experience with controls in aft cockpit. Often with duplication of navigation inputs. Not only extremely helpful when docking but also helpful when fishing. As with any outside helm station harden against weather.
Currently looking at options for our next boat as we downsize. Have decided to not include joysticks nor wireless. But rather a primary helm and a second in the aft cockpit. Beyond saving $22-30k more than adequately serves my needs. Also greater reliability and doesn’t require a shift in my paradigm thinking as I shift from one mechanism of control to another. More intuitive for this old brain.
I have had troubles with remote wireless AP controllers in both Raymarine, garmin and current simrad. I’m at a point with them that they just sit unused except on occasions I’m in open water. Failures have been charging, software and hardware. As a cruiser think we should try to avoid any single point failures that can endanger our boats. KISS. I’ve never had a AP issue using the dial at the helm stations. Still fly by wire but kept in a protected environment with one less interface.

Would note on a small boat if you can get a spring or midship line secured you can do the rest at your leisure. Have yet to be on a boat where that hasn’t been achievable except in very unusual circumstances. In those situations yes I need a dockhand. A wired or wireless controller would not eliminate that need in my judgment. Of course I may be limited by my skill set. Nor would multiple helm stations. Throwing a line to someone already on the dock would still be required. Accept your mileage may vary.

Even with wireless controls, mishaps will happen. My son works at a yard in Tacoma and sent me pics of a large boat they just finished working on. I can’t show them out of respect for the owners.
Boat owner grabbed the wireless control and somehow mashed the throttle, snapped the dock lines and ripped out part of the wing dock. Then blasted across the waterway into a barge. Owner and wife are now in harbor view recovering. Boat is a mess.
I don’t know the details of what happened, whether it was operator error or some type of malfunction, but it was an awful event for all involved.

Issue of thruster has been raised. Have yet to operate a boat with twin or more outboards with dual props. In talking with operators they report it’s slightly different than twins with single props but counter rotating. Depending upon size and situation a bow thruster remains helpful.
Think ideally controls should include throttles, transmissions and thrusters.

Bmarler said:

Even with wireless controls, mishaps will happen....Boat owner grabbed the wireless control and somehow mashed the throttle, snapped the dock lines and ripped out part of the wing dock. Then blasted across the waterway into a barge.

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There's no denying that mishaps occur with wireless controls in hand, just as they happen with wired controls in hand. But, in the cases of mishap with wireless controller in hand where I was called to investigate after the incident (each of them equipped with other manufacturers' wireless systems) , the problem was positively isolated to the original installed wired equipment, most often the servo motors in the propulsion control box.

It goes without saying that mashing the throttles while docking never ends well. That's exactly why I am very reluctant to place variable throttle functions onto a wireless controls except in very limited circumstances.

Hippocampus said:

Don’t have the expertise of many here. However in my limited experience have seen the plug for the wired controller to be inside the pilot house ad not exposed to weather. When docking side doors are left open and wire is long enough to allow direct vision of the situation.

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Yes, wired remote controls tend to be more dependable when the their connection plug is located inside the pilothouse, though a few times in that configuration I found the control problems to be caused by intermittent short-circuits in the long cable -- either at the general location where that cable crosses the threshold outside the cabin, or at plug connection (probably from repeatedly tripping over and yanking the cable.)

mvweebles said:

You may want to re-read Retrievers post. He was clearly speaking of single engine boats.

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Yup, I got that. Thanks.

mvweebles said:

Far from rare, a single, even with thrusters, requires throttle and rudder control during close quarter maneuvers.

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I understand that may be your experience, but the many single-engine boats with thrusters on which I've installed wireless docking controls (along with hundreds of other boats on which I've either consulted or have been a guest) routinely dock without manipulation of throttle or rudder settings.

mvweebles said:

Interesting that your firm won't satisfy that request unless the buyer demonstrates competency to your satisfaction.

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We're all entitled to decide for ourselves what sort of liability risks we're willing to take on and when to make exceptions. I hope that's OK with you.

Retriever said:

I've done tens of thousands of miles with a single screw and bow and stern thrusters--both hydraulic and electric--and regularly encounter situations that require prop & rudder in addition to thrusters.

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I think I remember crossing wakes with you a few years ago in SE Alaska or Northern BC waters. Akeeva is a fine looking ship! I'd be interested to hear of some of the places and situations where rudder was required, not merely some minor amount of throttle bump.

We have been watching a Dutch boating video channel to try to learn a bit of Dutch and see the areas they are traveling. They seem to have a berth in a city we spent some time so we like to see where we have been, so to speak.

The owners are VERY experienced. If I understand it correctly, they own a large river going fuel tanker. He is/was the captain and his wife handled the business side of running the ship. I think their yacht is 20-25 meters and twin screwed.

The last video they showed him replacing his remote wireless control. Something happened to the old one and he got a new one. I think from the same company. He had to swap out a circuit board but it seem to go pretty quickly. The remote had a lithium battery and its own "docking" station to charge the new remote. I think he said something about the old remote having battery problems. I don't know if that was a statement about batteries or just the remote was old and the battery can't be replaced.

The remote controls port and starboard thrusters and port and starboard engines. I did not notice if it had rudder control. I have seen one of the havens, aka, marinas he docks his boat and it is VERY tight. The remote certainly makes docking much, much easier since he can move around the boat and see what is happening. They have had several videos showing them docking and undocking and it is impressive. He really does not have much room to spare with his large boat in the tight space of the haven. I don't think I would want to dock a boat in that haven without a remote that would allow me to walk around and see what is happening vs being confined to a helm station.

There are wire remotes that are hard wired or one can have wired remotes that can be plugged and unplugged as needed.

vertigopilot said:

I understand that may be your experience, but the many single-engine boats with thrusters on which I've installed wireless docking controls (along with hundreds of other boats on which I've either consulted or have been a guest) routinely dock without manipulation of throttle or rudder settings.

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That is slightly painful to contemplate. I would not have thought that boat handling skills had been that widely abandoned.

guy with a boat said:

That is slightly painful to contemplate. I would not have thought that boat handling skills had been that widely abandoned.

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You'll have to let us know what percentage of NOG owners (Nordhavn Owners Group) maneuver without throttle/rudder but use gear/thrusters only. I can see it for backing down into a hole. Other than that, not a best-practice (not even close). At least in my opinion. Using prop-wash across the big rudders of a single screw is very effective at pushing the stern around. Odd that the suggestion is to abandon one of the most effective close quarter tools in the arsenal for a single-screw trawler.

For those who follow this unusual advice and center your helm on a single-screw and use thrusters to steer the boat, I strongly advise over-sized adjustable-speed hydraulic thrusters. I know electric thrusters have come a long way, but you might want to cough-up the extra dough for the best thrusters money can buy. In this use-case - abandoning the rudder to steer the boat - the thrusters are much more essential than how they are usually used to clean-up a landing.

Peter

guy with a boat said:

That is slightly painful to contemplate. I would not have thought that boat handling skills had been that widely abandoned.

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Alas…

mvweebles said:

You'll have to let us know what percentage of NOG owners (Nordhavn Owners Group) maneuver without throttle/rudder but use gear/thrusters only. I can see it for backing down into a hole. Other than that, not a best-practice (not even close). At least in my opinion. Using prop-wash across the big rudders of a single screw is very effective at pushing the stern around. Odd that the suggestion is to abandon one of the most effective close quarter tools in the arsenal for a single-screw trawler.

For those who follow this unusual advice and center your helm on a single-screw and use thrusters to steer the boat, I strongly advise over-sized adjustable-speed hydraulic thrusters. I know electric thrusters have come a long way, but you might want to cough-up the extra dough for the best thrusters money can buy. In this use-case - abandoning the rudder to steer the boat - the thrusters are much more essential than how they are usually used to clean-up a landing.

Peter

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Hydraulic thrusters are always a great recommendation (and I don’t even sell them)!