2nd start of fire in electrical equipment, what are your experiences ?

[lwarden]

Wow, this thread has really gone south. Posting a video of someone who has no clue about how to terminate ferrules does no good to further your cause. Not sure if you are aware, but often times getting CE approval for importation of certain systems to Europe REQUIRES the use of ferrules on terminals. Our safety testing certified body NEMKO looks for them when reviewing our systems for import. That's how important they are, especially on high current connections and chassis grounds.

Although Phoenix does not require ferrules, they do suggest them, and considering this application, they should absolutely be used IMO.

From the white paper on ferrules from Phoenix Contact.

Why use ferrules?
Ferrules provide many benefits. They ensure a solid and air-tight connection versus a bare, stripped wire. When wires are stripped of their insulation, the individual strands are compromised. The strands become loose or frayed, and depending on the quality of the strip process, they can be severed. Using a ferrule strengthens stranded wire bundles, eliminating stray strands and providing a durable and safe connection ensuring long-term electrical performance. Ferrules also safeguard the connection from corrosion and vibration, avoiding high temperatures, short circuits, and, in some cases, arc flashes. The use of ferrules allows for easy installation and retention of the shape and integrity of the wire end when removed and reinserted into the application. In many cases, when building a control panel or a rail assembly, wires can be landed incorrectly and must be removed and reinserted into the correct location. This action can cause wear and tear on the fine strands; however, dressing the wire end in a ferrule can eliminate the damage to the fine strands.

 

[CMS]

Wow, this thread has really gone south. Posting a video of someone who has no clue about how to terminate ferrules does no good to further your cause. Not sure if you are aware, but often times getting CE approval for importation of certain systems to Europe REQUIRES the use of ferrules on terminals. Our safety testing certified body NEMKO looks for them when reviewing our systems for import. That's how important they are, especially on high current connections and chassis grounds.

Although Phoenix does not require ferrules, they do suggest them, and considering this application, they should absolutely be used IMO.

From the white paper on ferrules from Phoenix Contact.

Why use ferrules?
Ferrules provide many benefits. They ensure a solid and air-tight connection versus a bare, stripped wire. When wires are stripped of their insulation, the individual strands are compromised. The strands become loose or frayed, and depending on the quality of the strip process, they can be severed. Using a ferrule strengthens stranded wire bundles, eliminating stray strands and providing a durable and safe connection ensuring long-term electrical performance. Ferrules also safeguard the connection from corrosion and vibration, avoiding high temperatures, short circuits, and, in some cases, arc flashes. The use of ferrules allows for easy installation and retention of the shape and integrity of the wire end when removed and reinserted into the application. In many cases, when building a control panel or a rail assembly, wires can be landed incorrectly and must be removed and reinserted into the correct location. This action can cause wear and tear on the fine strands; however, dressing the wire end in a ferrule can eliminate the damage to the fine strands.

But, when you use budget $10.00 crimp tools they pull off.... (grin) Clearly the entire industry and the manufacturer is wrong because some dolt on YT posted a video that shows he knows nothing about what he is doing so, it must be fact, just like Wikipedia..(grin) Amusing thread for sure..

 

[luna]

Amusing?
I'm afraid it may represent just how narcissistic and egocentric some people have become.
They are never wrong and will not take responsibility for their behaviour.
Really, it's just pathetic.

 

[lwarden]

But, when you use budget $10.00 crimp tools they pull off.... (grin) Clearly the entire industry and the manufacturer is wrong because some dolt on YT posted a video that shows he knows nothing about what he is doing so, it must be fact, just like Wikipedia..(grin) Amusing thread for sure..

Here is what we use for end ferrules in production. Very good quality German tool.

https://www.newark.com/weidmuller/0567300000/pz3-crimp-tool-ferrules/dp/65T4972

 

[Mambo42]

How many posts have there been in this thread ? How many opinions have there been in this thread ? How many videos of 'how to connect Victron' are there on the internet ? How many books are there on 'how to connect Victron'.
So many opinions, none of them the same, but all of them claim to have the wisdom and know why a fire erupts when you do it wrong.
When equipment is so extremely sensitive as to how to connect it safely............that equipment should only be sold by specialists and installed by vigorously trained professionals who get checked every month to figure out if they are doing it right.
But that part seems to not hit home by quite a few of you.
I wonder how it will go if some other equipment leads to a life threatening situation on your own boat ? Still going to claim that 'the correct procedure was not used ?'

I think I will go with the observations of the main distributor of Victron and I will simply forget all the so called specialists who think they know it all. The main distributor understands that things are not the way they should be. If you want to give them a call and share your point of view with them, feel free, give them a call. It is not that difficult to figure out who they are. After all, when you fill in a technical support form on the website of Victron...............it actually gets send to this main distributor. Victron does not handle it themselves.

 

[psneeld]

I will admit I have done short cuts or flat out did things wrong and smoke tested stuff. No real fires as fires really aren't all that easy to start....most errors result in meltdowns. Just because stuff is reported to cause fires....how many were actually fires versus smoke tests or melted gear only? My bet few actually result in fires.

So when bad stuff happened to me, my first reaction was hostile and blamed the engineers for the POS they designed...but after 10 minutes I figured out that it was my fault and fixed the problem the right way.....

Never went on the internet for days on end about it.

Projection
Projection refers to attributing one’s shortcomings, mistakes, and misfortunes to others in order to protect one’s ego. Blaming others (i.e. projection) is more common in those who are experiencing negative feelings and are unable to regulate their emotions.

Why Some People Will Always Blame Others

A recent study suggests that blaming others for one’s own mistakes is related to the defense mechanism of projection as well as to emotion regulation difficulties.

www.psychologytoday.com

 

[Mambo42]

I will admit I have done short cuts or flat out did things wrong and smoke tested stuff. No real fires as fires really aren't all that easy to start....most errors result in meltdowns. Just because stuff is reported to cause fires....how many were actually fires versus smoke tests or melted gear only? My bet few actually result in fires.

So when bad stuff happened to me, my first reaction was hostile and blamed the engineers for the POS they designed...but after 10 minutes I figured out that it was my fault and fixed the problem the right way.....

Never went on the internet for days on end about it.

Projection
Projection refers to attributing one’s shortcomings, mistakes, and misfortunes to others in order to protect one’s ego. Blaming others (i.e. projection) is more common in those who are experiencing negative feelings and are unable to regulate their emotions.

Why Some People Will Always Blame Others

A recent study suggests that blaming others for one’s own mistakes is related to the defense mechanism of projection as well as to emotion regulation difficulties.

www.psychologytoday.com

In case you missed it I have only posted updates over the last couple of days and not engaged into any discussion.
That said: the situation I had onboard would have started a fire if I would not have caught it in time. The board to which all the equipment is connected did start to burn and that is what set off the smoke alarm. The lazarette was filled with smoke. I managed to stop the fire from developing, but if I would not have been onboard it would have been a full blown fire.

Last year I had something like: 'wow, how the heck did that happen ?' and then I started making changes. I decided to check the connections every month, just to be sure they were still OK.
And still I ran into a developing fire situation and again it was a connection coming loose.
That was the moment I started asking myself if it was my boat or was there something else going on. That is also why I posted the question, to find out if it had happened to other people.
The first reactions were; 'it is your mistake and Victron parroted that opinion'. In fact Victron stated that it rarely happened. They wanted to give me the impression I was the first person who mentioned this to them.
Little did I know that a simple google search showed me different results, it was not so out of the ordinary and when the main distributor of Victron told me (on the phone) that they did not understand the choices of Victron and that they had warned Victron, but again Victron waved it off.
If this distributor would be some unimportant company I would be able to say: 'ok, it is just their opinion', but as it turned out, if you have a technical issue with Victron equipment.............they will forward that question to this main distributor. I.o.w. this main distributor is not just some company, they are extremely important in the Victron organization and structure.

Knowing all that I am wondering why Victron is changing the connection blocks on other equipment, but not on the MPPT controllers ? According to Victron themselves they have sold over 5 million of them, so is this more a matter of accountability ?
We know that fires / meltdowns / unsafe situations have happened more than Victron is willing to admit. The proof is out there on the internet.
We also know that there are about 100 ways to connect Victron equipment. Just look at the reactions here, the countless videos on Youtube as well as the ways official installation companies of Victron work. I have now dealt with two of them and each one has its own opinion. Also Victron states that each installation company can 'have its own opinion'. And that basically means that even Victron does not think there is only one way to install the equipment.
However, if you do it wrong it is your problem and a fire is a well deserved punishment.
That last piece of logic does not fly with me. Even if you do it not according to the 100 ways Victron thinks you should connect something, it should never be allowed to lead to a fire hazard.
Would it be impossible to come up with a safe connection ? Absolutely not.
So if it is not impossible to come up with a safe connection................why is that not implemented ?
And if Victron thinks the connection block of the MPPT controller is 100 % safe, why are they changing the blocks on other equipment, which had the same connection blocks ?

That is a question victron is unwilling to answer, but their main distributor is not supporting them in this issue and that tells me a lot.

 

[psneeld]

Does the main distributer still sell the piece of equipment in question?

 

[Mambo42]

Does the main distributer still sell the piece of equipment in question?

They are still the main distributor of Victron, they sell Victron equipment all over the world.
And no, I don't think they are going to commit suicide over a piece of equipment for which they are not responsible. If anything happens with Victron equipment they simply pass it on to Victron. However, they do have an opinion and they do get questions from the installation companies, they see the problems and they handle most repairs. I guess that is why they discussed it with Victron to change the connection blocks.
One of the things they don't like is the limitation on wire size. If a solar panel is beyond 5 mtrs it is better to use a thicker cable, but that is impossible, the equipment won't allow it. Victron does not want to listen to that advice.

 

[psneeld]

If they still sell the exact same piece of equipment you are complaining about, it is way beyond me how you can continue thinking the way you do.

I back out again till I just can't stand it again......

 

[luna]

The OP among a whole lot of other things does not seem to be grasp that a 50 A connection needs a larger terminal than a 30 A connection, that needs a larger terminal than a 15 A connection.

It's simple, do what the manual says and it will not burn your boat to the waterline.
Do what your favorite You Tuber says and all bets are off, call the fire department.
How difficult can this be?

 

[Mambo42]

If they still sell the exact same piece of equipment you are complaining about, it is way beyond me how you can continue thinking the way you do.

I back out again till I just can't stand it again......

Problem that I am having at the moment is that my complete system is Victron and you cannot just exchange a couple of items. The system is not going to work anymore like it does now.
E.g. any other MPPT controller is not going to show up in my control panels, working with my BMS, the alternators etc. It would open up a complete can of worms (beyond what I would be able to comprehend) that I am not sure I want to open up.
If I can find an alternative for this connection block, which is more safe and belongs to another brand, but will work with all the other Victron equipment, then I am all for it. At the moment I have one solar panel that is out of use, it is hanging on the side, not connected to anything.
I did spend about 15.000 euro on all the Victron equipment, plus about 15.000 euro to install all of it, so to just dump it into the garbage because of this issue is not really an option. My boat would be without electricity and I would probably not be able to find an alternative anytime soon.
Would you be willing to spend about 30.000 euro, after you have already spent a hell of a lot more, just because of a faulty connection block ?

 

[Delta Riverat]

I would hope the new system does not work like the old system which causes fires.

 

[Mambo42]

I would hope the new system does not work like the old system which causes fires.

I hope that as well, but have not identified it and main question is: 'am I willing to throw 35.000 USD down the toilet for it, plus spend perhaps an additional 35.000 USD for new equipment.
All of it because of a flawed connection block ?
Would you ?
Perhaps everyone is swimming in money, I am not.

 

[Delta Riverat]

I don't think it would cost thirty five thousand to replace some solar chargers.

What else are you going to do?

Go down and tighten the screws every week? Wait for Victron to improve their connectors? Install some middle terminal blocks and some fine strand wire? All are viable options.

But since this is your second fire..., I'd do something to fix the problem.

 

[Mambo42]

I don't think it would cost thirty five thousand to replace some solar chargers.

What else are you going to do?

Go down and tighten the screws every week? Wait for Victron to improve their connectors? Install some middle terminal blocks and some fine strand wire? All are viable options.

But since this is your second fire..., I'd do something to fix the problem.

Victron has an idea of creating a complete system, which means all the equipment can communicate and regulate itself via one central platform. The reason I have Victron batteries is not that I like Victron batteries so much, but I found out that other battery suppliers cannot communicate with Victron equipment.
Same goes for the MPPT controllers, the chargers etc, it is an integrated system and when you hook it all up it functions perfect.
However, start exchanging items for non Victron brands and you will find that certain functions don't function anymore. Since I have a complicated system onboard which requires me to have complete information about all systems, I cannot install any equipment that cannot communicate with Victron.
I did pay about 15.000 euro (around 16.500 USD) for all the Victron equipment I have onboard. In addition I paid about 16.000 euro (around 17.500 USD) to install all of that.
I am not willing to throw that down the toilet and then spend more money to find alternative equipment, which is most likely not able to accommodate the power supply that I have designed for my boat.
And all of that because of a flawed connection block ?

 

[Delta Riverat]

If you love Victron so much, by all means stay with it. Just get that bigger unit that they didn't have before and do the middle blocks to use the fine strand wire for the Victron's that they need.

And I'm not swimming in money. Your Victron stuff cost more than my boat -

 

[Mambo42]

If you love Victron so much, by all means stay with it. Just get that bigger unit that they didn't have before and do the middle blocks to use the fine strand wire for the Victron's that they need.

And I'm not swimming in money. Your Victron stuff cost more than my boat -

It is not that I love Victron so much. I had the choice to go with Mastervolt or with Victron. The quote I got for Mastervolt was triple that of Victron (came to over 80.000 euro) and at the same time I was told that Mastervolt was of a lower quality than Victron.
Other brands were not able to build the complete system that I had in mind, so that is how I ended up with Victron and like I said, it functions good, it does what I want it to do, but it has this problem with connection blocks.

As soon as the MPPT controllers with the MC4 connectors will become available via the main distributor I will buy them. Hopefully can get them this winter. The old ones will go out and will be replaced by a safer connection. I cannot order them now, since we are still travelling and have no place where to send them. We are on our way to Greece again, will only stay in a place for a few days before we move on again. So for now I guess it will have to remain tightening the screws up all the time, but maybe now every 2 weeks instead of 4 weeks.

 

[rslifkin]

Next time you tighten the screws, mark them to confirm if they're actually rotating loose or if the wire is moving under them and losing tension. If the screws are actually loosening, then you could try a little bit of loctite on them and see if that helps keep them tight.

 

[CMS]

And all of that because of a flawed connection block ?

As has been pointed out numerous times the phoenix connectors are not faulty, the installation was faulty. At the volumes Victron is selling there are likely millions of these controllers out there, hell I had four on my own boat and we have 11 in our off-grid camps zero issues. If this really was a problem the internet would be screaming about it.

When we do an install we use the correct gauge wire, quality crimp tools, correct type wire, strain relief, drip-loops, a torque screwdriver, correct MPPT orientation, and then do a final torque check, on everything, before leaving the job. Never once had any high resistance issues any equipment not just Victron... We switched to Victron MPPT'sover ten years ago and that is hundreds of installed controllers. Zero issues..

 

[luna]

As soon as the MPPT controllers with the MC4 connectors will become available via the main distributor I will buy them. Hopefully can get them this winter. The old ones will go out and will be replaced by a safer connection. I cannot order them now, since we are still travelling and have no place where to send them. We are on our way to Greece again, will only stay in a place for a few days before we move on again. So for now I guess it will have to remain tightening the screws up all the time, but maybe now every 2 weeks instead of 4 weeks.

For someone who has difficulty understanding how to make and maintain a simple conductor to terminal connection, switching to MC4 connectors may not prove any safer.

Here is a white paper authored in early 2022. Maybe things have changed since then.

https://www.pvel.com/wp-content/uploads/PVEL-HelioVolta-Ultimate-Safety-Guide-for-Solar-PV-Connectors-Feb-2022.pdf

A couple of items noted at the time.

- A universal design standard has not yet been established.
- The NEC was revised to state that the 2 parts of the connector pairs must be tested together and certified for intermatability. (is that really a word?)

Perhaps Victron provides the certified mate to the mounted MC4 connector, loose in the box, I'm not sure. If they do, then you or that official highly competent installer of yours is going to have to install it on whatever wire you chose originally. Unless you are smart enough to replace the wire.
If they don't, how do you know whatever connector you buy is certified with those connectors mounted in the MPPT? Plus you still need to get it installed. How do you think that is going to work out?

Be careful of what you wish for!

Suddenly, a simple turn of the screw connection, if PROPERLY done seems a lot safer and easier.

 

[rslifkin]

I've crimped and assembled my own MC4 connectors before. If you buy the right tool it's really not hard to get right.

 

[luna]

Provided that you understand the fundamentals of how to make a connection, you are right, with the proper tools, conductor and connectors it's likely not really hard to get right.

Has Mambo42 demonstrated that he/she possesses the tools, materials and understanding to achieve this goal?

 

[Mambo42]

As has been pointed out numerous times the phoenix connectors are not faulty, the installation was faulty. At the volumes Victron is selling there are likely millions of these controllers out there, hell I had four on my own boat and we have 11 in our off-grid camps zero issues. If this really was a problem the internet would be screaming about it.

When we do an install we use the correct gauge wire, quality crimp tools, correct type wire, strain relief, drip-loops, a torque screwdriver, correct MPPT orientation, and then do a final torque check, on everything, before leaving the job. Never once had any high resistance issues any equipment not just Victron... We switched to Victron MPPT'sover ten years ago and that is hundreds of installed controllers. Zero issues..

As stated many times before, I did not install a single wire or piece of equipment myself. I paid an official Victron installer a lot of money to install the equipment. They did notify me of the problems they were running into and they suggested solutions.
So I have absolutely no clue why people keep going on that I should study before installing anything.
Anyone care to explain ?

 

[twistedtree]

This has all become so tiring. The OP only want to complain about things, and has not been receptive to any of the advice or suggestions made. So it's just a thread complaining. I'm going to request that it be closed.

 

[CMS]

As stated many times before, I did not install a single wire or piece of equipment myself. I paid an official Victron installer a lot of money to install the equipment. They did notify me of the problems they were running into and they suggested solutions.
So I have absolutely no clue why people keep going on that I should study before installing anything.
Anyone care to explain ?

Yet you insist on blaming the equipment as opposed to your installer who clearly did not know what he was doing.. Had your installer been competent we would not even been discussing this.. Honestly I would suggest hiring another company, a competent one, to audit the entire install. MPPT’s are about the easiest pieces of equipment to install, if he could not get this right what else is hiding?

 

[mvweebles]

This has all become so tiring. The OP only want to complain about things, and has not been receptive to any of the advice or suggestions made. So it's just a thread complaining. I'm going to request that it be closed.

I was thinking the same thing - seriously, close to 300 posts! And yet I cannot not-read them. Oy vey....

 

[Larry M]

Thanks everyone for being patient. Thread close.