Do you need two sets of controls on a liveaboard?

I haven't found a discussion on this one yet. Does anyone have preference or knowledge on if two sets of electronics are needed?

I mean without controls and a captains chair in the cockpit, the helm area can even be used as a dining area (top picture). Then you only have one set of controls on the flybridge area, but is that a dealmaker for an ocean going liveaboard?

I lived on a Uniflite 42 ACMY that didn't have a lower helm station. Was fine by me as all I did is use it for local cruising and the fly bridge was by far the best place to be. nice to have the extra space in the saloon.

But if distance cruising is your main intention, you really need a decent helm station protected from the elements. Getting up/down to fly bridge in a seaway can be difficult (impossible?) in tough seas.

I mean this in a kind and supportive way, but that type of question strikes me as coming from someone without a ton of hands on experience with the type of cruising you're contemplating ("open ocean"). You might want to dial back your aspirations a bit. I know it's tempting to say "if it can cross an ocean, it can get me anywhere I want to go." Heck, that's Nordhavn's marketing scheme in a nutshell. But it's an expensive way to go and not always fruitful.

If I missed the mark, my apologies.

Peter

Nice boat you got there!

Yeah, I wouldn't do anything to it, never know when it might be real nice to go down and drive.

Thank you for the feedback, yes if the upper helm was the main station, it would give much more room in the saloon. That way you could have a separate dedicated dining area and then living room area.

I do have a long ways to go to achieve this dream. I've compiled resources to start, doing the following: American Sailing, Americas Boating Channel & Club, JMYS Trawlers.

I also learned I can do a local boating membership through Freedom Boat Club in my area. If there are any other resources you can think of, please feel free to comment.

I like the one with helm station and dinette combined, lower pic.

Although we only have a heated/AC'd flying bridge helm now, and haven't missed a lower helm. Although we had a lower helm once, and only used it a very few times while underway. Although we don't really liveaboard, even if we do usually spend more than 200 days/year aboard.

Although we don't usually need to do open ocean to get where we're going, especially when we're in or hoe grounds on the Chesapeake. And if we were doing open ocean more often, I think I'd be also wanting stabilization and so forth...

-Chris

If you only have the flybridge you will need a controlled environment on the flybridge. Just running up and down the West Coast it gets extremely cold at night.

I prefer operating from my fly bridge. The seating and view are superior. In order to make this possible on an overnight transit I have enclosed the flybridge. My forward windows are Makrolon, a treated Polycarbonate for glass like clarity. I have heated seats and my hydronic heat system acts as a defroster as well as heating the space. I do not have the ability to cool the space which is not an issue in my area but is also a consideration when committing to only a flybridge location.

Peter on Weebles makes a very valid comment. I am not sure that you will ever find a discussion on that topic. Boating is about safety and redundancy. We all have our comfort zones and what we consider risks. Our optimism can sometimes get us in to trouble. I am a live aboard and have 2 driving stations. I would never consider only 1. The option to drive "inside" during bad weather, storms or a 4:00 am anchor drag fiasco makes it worth it. Although, it looks and sounds great at the boat show.
Get some miles under your belt and your answer will come to you. Again, no disrespect meant

We just cruised from Hilton Head SC to Stuart FL. It took six days. It rained and blew hard for the entire trip. If I didn't have an inside helm station, I would still be sitting at Hilton head.

We are total converts to the enclosed flybridge/skylounge with no down helm concept after moving from our previous Nordic Tug to our current Maritimo. Open up the windows on a nice day for all the breeze you need. Use the yacht controller or remote stations for docking. Get a big airy salon in return. Great bargain.

My single station sport fish is what killed it for me. With doing long cruising you need the ability to be protected from the elements. With doing true cruising , having the change of venue during long hours of driving helps.

Sababa said:

We are total converts to the enclosed flybridge/skylounge with no down helm concept after moving from our previous Nordic Tug to our current Maritimo. Open up the windows on a nice day for all the breeze you need. Use the yacht controller or remote stations for docking. Get a big airy salon in return. Great bargain.

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I agree however the OP insinuated his use-case was open ocean conditions. Getting up/down to a flybridge in boisterous conditions is a challenge. Forget about bringing up a morning cup of coffee......

Peter

If your fly bridge is totally enclosed and you can reach it without going outside (into the weather) you basically don't need the lower helm station in my opinion. After all, there are loads of boats with only one helm station and they are perfectly safe.
However, I can only reach the fly bridge by going outside, so during a storm I would have to go outside to be able to steer the boat, which I don't see happening. On top of that, my fly bridge is not enclosed and the bimini is not strong enough to sustain 65+ kts. When TS are forecasted we take away the bimini and put the cover on the fly bridge to protect it from the rain and wind.
In other words, only during storms and cold weather do we steer from the pilot house, otherwise (also at night) always from the fly bridge.
We would love to have the extra space onboard, but since that we do need to be able to steer from the pilot house, removing the that helm station is not an option for us.

Don’t the oceangoing raised pilot house Nordhavn’s (like the 63) have the cup of coffee problem as well?

As a liveaboard/cruiser, I cannot overstate the importance of coffee accessibility for both helm stations.

What he said!

We have a set of Yeti mugs with sippy lids and the boat name printed on them for precisely that purpose.

Smaller trawler, flat stern in relatively high winds and following sea on Delaware Bay…auto pilot couldn’t hold a course, got pushed around, increasing risk of Broaching, so we moved off the FB to the cabin safely and early as conditions worsened. Far safer, less motion for us, hand steered for 8 hours until the peace of the C&D canal. Your boat would have been fine, but in proportionately rough conditions relative to your beautiful, larger boat, perhaps the lesser roll and pitch of a main cabin steering station would add to the safety and comfort of you and your guests.

Interesting reading prior posts and thoughtful points.

Our KK Manatee has a single helm topsides. Basically, all boat operation is from the second deck, which devotes the entire first deck to living space. This separation allows each space to be optimized for what it is intended to do.

We coastal cruise for months at a time and could not be more comfortable in a 36’ boat.

The one major compromise is that a beam sea can be uncomfortable. When this occurs, we do the same as when we were sailing, we simply tack to another direction.

Access to the helm is via a ladder which serves nicely as my litmus test. Once the knees can’t climb the ladder, it will be time to stop.

We find that as liveaboards we prefer the raised pilothouse style. Your inside and protected, but still have great visibility. Access via stairs to the salon. Only three steps for the admiral to bring my morning coffee.
Full beam salon makes great use of the space and the pilothouse is a “spare room” or quasi office space. When cruising, it’s nice to have the good size pilothouse with a settee and table for meals under way.

OP, although there are no absolutes in life, I can absolutely say that if you are planning ocean crossings or long distance coastal, then a fully enclosed pilothouse is necessary, and a open flybridge is an option, a luxury. Not the other way around. It's about safety and comfort both, but especially safety.

Granted that sailboats cruise with exposed cockpits worldwide, but one of the reasons for switching to power is to get out of the elements, not to have to wear foul weather gear or harnesses, etc.

However I'm not a flybridge guy, which goes against the general consensus.

Thank you for all the replies, I need to do more research on the enclosed flybridge options. I didn't know some brands like maritimo also started to do them before North Pacific.

There is another aspect not mentioned here and that is if all your guests or crew are down below keeping warm, that might be where you want to be enjoying a nice snack and hot coffee with them. I only have radar on flybridge and we just got back from some night travel in the SF Bay where radar is very handy with all the tug, fog and ship traffic. Had to be in flybridge with my arctic jacket, insulated pants and after ski boots. Wish I had the radar also in the inside helm.

El Dorado said:

Thank you for all the replies, I need to do more research on the enclosed flybridge options. I didn't know some brands like maritimo also started to do them before North Pacific.

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There's enclosed, and then there's enclosed. The hard enclosure as on a Maritimo would likely be more securely closed, but then that's probably a lot of weight, up high.

We have the next step down from that, a hardtop and then full see-through curtains all round. Since it's a greenhouse, it doesn't take much heat to stay comfortable. Our last trip south began last Dec 1st, and we just wore T-shirts underway. OTOH, since it's a greenhouse, the AC needs to be able to keep up in the hottest part of Summer. (Ours is 27K BTU, does fine.) And the hardtop deals with potential snow load, offers a place to mount stuff (antennas or solar or whatever)... so its a significant step up from a soft bimini.

-Chris

For full-time cruising an enclosed helm is really great but many "liveaboards" rarely leave the dock and could almost get by with no helm station at all.

^^ Hehe.

For open ocean cruising, you will find the motion on the flybridge much more active than a pilothouse, because it is further from the center of roll. It isn't just getting up there, it's living with it once there. I fault most of the Nordhavns for this, as the PH is as high as the flybridge on many boats. One reason a sailboat is much more comfortable in a big seaway is you are sitting in the cockpit, just a few feet above the roll center.

Think in the ocean the fewer key single point failures you have the better.
For sailboats this is commonly done with robust direct gear and rod to an arm off the rudder post. Then a separate arm used for the AP. Then a third arm for a second AP and or a full secondary rudder and tiller that can be deployed when necessary. Add in an emergency tiller acting direct on the rudder you have multiple independent ways to steer the boat. The secondary emergency rudder is usually done by modifying existing wind vane steering. Two independent rudders and at least three independent ways to steer main non emergency rudder.

Often for small power steering is hydraulic or occasionally fly by wire. The AP is off the hydraulics. If two stations exist they are both off the same hydraulics as is the AP. There is one arm which all depend on. Often on SD hulls of moderate size steering is a single point failure site. Not infrequently there’s no emergency rudder or tiller. Given how reliable hydraulics are this isn’t a safety issue of significant concern in a coastal setting. But it can be in an ocean setting where steering maybe stressed for longer periods of time and succor less available.

Neither twin engines nor drogues are a sufficient answer in my opinion. They likely will not be as quickly responsive as a rudder(s) nor suffice in heavy weather imho.

Beyond comfort and safely of being in a pilothouse would also be concerned redundancy and robustness.

One of the reasons I like recent designs is a protected (often glass enclosed) helm off the front of the aft cockpit and a second at the front of the enclosed house. Examples are Artnautica and the smaller Arksens. Avoids the issue mentioned in post by DDW to a significant extent.

Would say our longer trips have been in worse weather than local cruising. Spring and fall. Nearly 100% of watch standing during those times is in the pilothouse although we have a FB.

Think in the ocean the fewer key single point failures you have the better.
For sailboats this is commonly done with robust direct gear and rod to an arm off the rudder post. Then a separate arm used for the AP. Then a third arm for a second AP and or a full secondary rudder and tiller that can be deployed when necessary. Add in an emergency tiller acting direct on the rudder you have multiple independent ways to steer the boat. The last is usually done by modifying existing wind vane steering.

Often for small power steering is hydraulic or occasionally fly by wire. The AP is off the hydraulics. If two stations exist they are both off the same hydraulics as is the AP. There is one arm which all depend on. Often on SD hulls of moderate size steering is a single point failure site. Not infrequently there’s no emergency rudder. Given how reliable hydraulics are this isn’t a safety issue of significant concern in a coastal setting. But it can be in an ocean setting where steering maybe stressed for longer periods of time and succor less available