Hurricane surge

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Joined
Dec 24, 2019
Messages
998
Location
New Port Richey, Fl
Vessel Name
M/V Intrigue
Vessel Make
1985 Tung Hwa Senator
Dock power is off. But I recently added the Victron MP2 and plenty of lithium. Also have Verizon home internet that takes very little juice. And finally added Zumimal pan/zoom wifi cameras. Currently pulling 6.5 amps out of the 920ah bank. Plenty of capacity.

So because of this I can monitor the boat via cam and wifi as well as electrical situation.
Location is Tarpon Springs.

Current situation:
1000013867.jpg

May have another foot or two to go.
 
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Location would help.

I see your pedestal is either pretty short or under 3-feet of water

Not looking good for our place in Madeira Beach. We're flying back from Mexico on Saturday. Drywall knife in hand....

Peter
 

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Location would help.

I see your pedestal is either pretty short or under 3-feet of water

Not looking good for our place in Madeira Beach. We're flying back from Mexico on Saturday. Drywall knife in hand....

Peter
I think its close to cresting. Hopefully its just a bit of drywall and basic stuff. Crossing fingers.
 
I think its close to cresting. Hopefully its just a bit of drywall and basic stuff. Crossing fingers.

Good luck to you. Looks worse the further north you go. Our house is a 1950s cottage - slab on grade. We're thinking of moving a few miles inland to higher ground to avoid storms like this. We travel a lot and it's an unnecessary distraction.

Always enjoy your posts. Best wishes.

Peter
 
Good luck to you. Looks worse the further north you go. Our house is a 1950s cottage - slab on grade. We're thinking of moving a few miles inland to higher ground to avoid storms like this. We travel a lot and it's an unnecessary distraction.

Always enjoy your posts. Best wishes.

Peter
It's definitely slowing. This latest is nearly an hour after the picture above and only gone up a few inches.
1000013876.jpg
 
Our friends who's house is 1/4 mile west of us in New Port Richey got flooded as did several of the neighbors on that street. They had 20 inches of water inside. I spent 4 hours yesterday shop vacuuming water out of the house. Going back in a few minutes to do more.
All of their furniture like chairs and sofas are soaked and likely ruined. Cabinets and bookshelves probably too warped to keep. Cabinet doors won't close either. Water was likely only inside for a very short time as it quickly receded.
Even their fridge floated and was wedged at an angle between cabinets and wall.
At least the water was clean, but being brackish, not sure if any of the appliances are worth trying to save.
 
In St. Petersburg Beach, all my friends had at least 2' of Boca Ciega Bay in their houses - even in the highest neighborhoods. Others had a lot more. It has never flooded that much there. As Peter said, it was worse the further north you look. The news from places like Cedar Key and Keaton Beach is awful.

For the west coast of Florida, Helene modeled nearly the worst-case scenario. The only thing I can think of that would have caused greater damage would have been if the storm had advanced at the more normal speed of 10-12 mph, instead of racing up the Gulf at 23 mph. A little slower rate of advance and a little closer to the west coast of the peninsula, and it could have been the perfect storm, so to speak.

For the perpetual critics who suspect that Florida boaters are negligent, take a look at the chart and the forecast track, and tell us where you would have repositioned your boat between Monday and Wednesday while simultaneously securing your home and business, and evacuating your family. As Ted noted, the Caloosahatchee River would have been about the only play, assuming you could beat the rush and get to Ft. Myers in time.
 
For the perpetual critics who suspect that Florida boaters are negligent, take a look at the chart and the forecast track, and tell us where you would have repositioned your boat between Monday and Wednesday while simultaneously securing your home and business, and evacuating your family. As Ted noted, the Caloosahatchee River would have been about the only play, assuming you could beat the rush and get to Ft. Myers in time.
The big thing it makes me wonder about is why aren't marinas there built better? Floating docks, taller pilings to handle surge, good protection from sea state, etc.

Prior to me having it, my boat rode out Sandy on Long Island Sound in a marina. The biggest concern for losing the boat was whether the surge would hit at high tide and be big enough to lift the docks off the pilings. As it happened, peak surge was at less than high tide and there was still a couple feet of piling left. A couple of boats suffered wind induced damage, but for the most part, everyone made it through intact as the docks were able to keep the boats in position (and being floating docks means no really slack lines to allow everything to move around and build big shock loads, not enough slack for boats to bang together, etc.).
 
Have wondered about what could be done to mitigate boat loss or damage from storms or hurricanes in Florida.
Have had boats weather intact storms and one hurricane. They were on hurricane rated moorings with anything taken down that could add to windage. They were in harbors of refuge so behind significant breakwaters and surrounding land was higher than the harbor.
Boats were secured with bridle to both bow cleats, additional snubbers to cleats between bow and midship and line around base of the mast. All protected with chafe gear. Mooring chain long enough to allow storm surge. Attached to a screw not a weight.
Floating docks would work but only if pilings were higher than any possible expected surge. Now with more 100y events from MMCC that may not be the case. Believe storm moorings unlike slips have the advantage the boat is always oriented bow on whereas in a slip you maybe beam on.
Unfortunately you can get a lot more boats in a much smaller area with slips than moorings. But think even those of us outside high risk areas will see a further jump in insurance premiums and insurance in high risk areas will jump even further and be limited in availability. Think even the most diligent Florida boater is at risk from the absence of appropriate infrastructure and possibility of meaningful repositioning. Most have a home to worry about as well as repositioning themselves. It would be up to marinas and local agencies to rethink and provide infrastructure that’s more resilient to our new reality going forward. Have Floridian friends. They sold their boat last month. But still had home damage. Now thinking of bugging out of Florida altogether. Borne and raised in Florida. Very upset how things have changed.
 
Floating docks would work but only if pilings were higher than any possible expected surge
Agreed. In my mind, there's no reason not to install extra-tall pilings when building a marina with floating docks though. A large portion of the cost is in physically installing the pilings and the cost of good, sturdy docks. The incremental cost of making the pilings a few feet taller can't be that high.
 
For the perpetual critics who suspect that Florida boaters are negligent, take a look at the chart and the forecast track, and tell us where you would have repositioned your boat between Monday and Wednesday while simultaneously securing your home and business, and evacuating your family. As Ted noted, the Caloosahatchee River would have been about the only play, assuming you could beat the rush and get to Ft. Myers in time.
It easy to judge after the fact. Post storm we know the strength, exact trajectory, tidal surge level etc. We have tropical storm/hurricanes every year. We tend to critique after the fact very unfairly as perfect boat operators with unlimited time and resources and little regard for real life aspects such as jobs, family needs and other mundane concerns. Every year, as they pop up, we make decision and calculations based on available information. In addition, based on past accumulated history there is some complacency baked in there (cant say there isnt..lol). When a storm like this approaches there are only a few things that can be done. The following is just my opinions from what i think I have learned over the 5 or 6 years or so of owning a boat that stays in a Marina:

1) Take it out of the water- The ratio of Marinas and facilities to do this VS actual boats is 10,000 to 1. And if you dont have a pre-paid plan with your local Marina (if they offer one) or know someone that operates the Marina, the likelihood of success with this is low. We have exactly 1 local Marina that would have space beyond their own customer base and they have room for about 10- 20 boats extra to pull and block up. So as the trajectory and strength become more certain, around 2 to 3 days prior to impact you would have to burn up the phones in an attempt to locate a place. Each successive phone call is to a location farther and farther away that would take prep and time to get to. Keep in mind I and most others are still at my job 10 hours a day and have to prep the house. Its worth an attempt but unless you prearrange something its not likely to happen. Especially while working and while also being a homeowner.

2) Move the boat- completely depends on your available time and the specifics of the storm. The ones that come up the West side of Florida make for difficult decisions. They have a bad tendency to turn East. So if traveling down from say...Tampa to Ft Myers to make the Caloosahatchee River as the storm comes up the coast you could find yourself in a very dire situation. I have a buddy who did just this. But he has a charter boat he runs and no other job and just a rental house. So he left early. His boat is also a planing boat and can scoot a bit as needed. He made it safely. But most people have to work up until the day before. So on sail and slow boats this is still a risky option. You also abandon your #1 asset of your home. And if you work, you burn sick days and or vacation days that may or may not even be approved. And ill say that when everyone else at work is prepping for the benefit of the business and you say you have to leave to go take care of your fancy boat...that doesn't go over so well..lol. I realize many here are independently wealthy or retired but that's not the case with many others.

3) check your insurance and tie it down. Go do all the other things required such as finish up at work, prep your house, check generators, work, get gas, relocate if needed, other family needs... shop..lol.


For probably 99% of Floridians that own boats, the boat itself is a low priority and falls into category 3. Plus there just isn't enough time in the days leading up to these things.

A couple other things after surveying surrounding marinas yesterday.

1) Some of the boats that were removed from the water toppled anyways because the water rose so high. Some of those boats would have been better in the water tied off.

2) Many failures of boats tied in their slips came from lines too tight. Many ripped up cleats. And if the cleats didnt give way, the boards with cleats attached came up.

2) One very important and sometimes overlooked aspect is the selection of which marina you berth your boat... Will it be subject to wave action in wind or storms? We are at Anclote Isles Marina. Its a few miles up river and then you turn into a nice cove that has a narrow mouth. The cove itself is the size of small lake about 500 feet across with wave absorbing mangroves on either side. The fetch is too short to propagate significant wave action. I watched the boat via webcams all night and there was never waves over 6 inches. IMO this aspect is one of the most critical for storm survivability. Wave action is a killer....a dock destroyer. Much more so than wind.

My personal takeaways from this storm:
-I am in a very good location.
-I need to increase my insurance a bit. I use "agreed upon value" since my boat isn't super valuable and I can absorb some losses. But the thought of my boat going down after installing all the Garmin and Victron and Lifepo4 stuff had me sweating a bit...lol. I need to raise the agreed upon value another 10-15k. Unfortunately I think premiums will be going up. So Ill let that settle a bit before asking.
- I have a much better grasp of how to tie up in a storm like this with surge like this. I had about 2 or 3 feet more available space for tide rise. But with a few minor changes I can increase that quite a bit. Longer lines on the stern ties to the pilings on the far side of the dock would have given much more up and down "throw" instead of the stern ties being only about 11 feet long. Increasing them to 18 to 20 feet long would give much more leeway for tidal rise. The stern lines were my "weak link" here. Glad I didnt not exceed it this time.

It was a good "learning experience" and I came though unscathed...but I will be even more prepared next time. I feel lucky to learn these lessons in real events without losses.
 
It would be up to marinas and local agencies to rethink and provide infrastructure that’s more resilient to our new reality going forward. Have Floridian friends. They sold their boat last month. But still had home damage. Now thinking of bugging out of Florida altogether. Borne and raised in Florida. Very upset how things have changed.
The problem is that many Marinas are of course privately owned and are very old. My marina is owned by an old Greek family in Tarpon Springs. It is showing its age and this family spends very very little on Marina upkeep, let alone improvements. Its saving grace is that it is up a river AND tucked in a cove surrounded by wave eating mangroves. But you are right. The future doesn't look all that bright for the long term without some kind of influx of money. And I have no idea where that would come from. It may well be a future of marina attrition followed by increased building codes. But this would make boating and Marinas even more exclusive by cost.
 
For the perpetual critics who suspect that Florida boaters are negligent, take a look at the chart and the forecast track, and tell us where you would have repositioned your boat between Monday and Wednesday while simultaneously securing your home and business, and evacuating your family. As Ted noted, the Caloosahatchee River would have been about the only play, assuming you could beat the rush and get to Ft. Myers in time.
Without using "negligent", there have been 3 major hurricanes in the last 8 years (Irma, Ian, and Helene) that have impacted the SW coast of Florida. At some point an inwater boat owner has to realize that it's not if, but when the next one comes. Being somewhere that you can't get out of harms way is no longer going to be a viable answer. Certainly the insurance companies are going to realize this and either exclude coverage here during hurricane season or exclude named storm coverage.

Ted
 
Think even the most diligent Florida boater is at risk from the absence of appropriate infrastructure and possibility of meaningful repositioning. Most have a home to worry about as well as repositioning themselves.
The pronoun-eschewing Hippocampus sums it up with admirable brevity. It's the sad truth. Keeping a boat almost anywhere along the Gulf of Mexico coast is just an increasingly risky choice.
 
Good discusion, Here in the Florida Keys we are lucky our surge only rises to the height of Route One then it spills over to the other side for relief. The mainland is different because the land mass gradually slopes up so surge water is traped and just accumulates. Then you add the hook or cove shape that the west coast has and you really trap that suge water in.
I always move my trawler away from the surge. Our Glacier Bay we take it off the boat lift and tie it across the 125ft canal wiith plenty of scope for surge.
 
Ted unfortunately makes a good point. We went from bluewater to north south coastal and now bugging out of that. One of the big drivers of downsizing is MMCC and its impact on quality of life while cruising.
Love the Caribbean but many of the places we enjoyed in the past have been recently destroyed. Some not rebuilt but others like bitter end rebuilt in a manner we are priced out.
We enjoyed Hilton Head. There’s a few marinas with decent storm protection but costs are up and availability down.
Unlike the south the northeast does have dry storage. Wets slip availability is extremely limited. We are on multiple waiting lists with latencies of years and years. Even dry winter storage has become hard to find.
Unless you buy new it’s extremely unlikely you will find a slip for anything over 30’ for several years. Under 30’ is still hard but possible especially if you will accept a rented mooring far from home.
The limitation isn’t just money but more likely space within a hour or two of home. So we have changed our plans and are now looking for a good fish boat at ~30’ or less that can be put on a trailer if necessary. That’s in a low risk area. Like Ted said something has to give. Not just in Florida but the Carolinas as well. Protected anchorages, marinas and dry storage are increasing problems the boat owner can’t fix. One of the joys of Florida is having a boat. But except for the fortunate few risk may outweigh benefit. Think is maybe more true for trawlers than small boats. More invested, harder to move, fewer storm options. If I lived in Florida would have a substantial pickup and boat I could trailer the hell out of there. Do the best I could for the house and leave going north west where none of the spaghetti exists. Either that or be prepared to just write off the boat.
 
Either that or be prepared to just write off the boat.
This is my plan going forward I think. My boat might be worth $30 to 40K on a good day. Insurance is an agreed upon value with liability. If its lost ill buy another like it. As much as I want a larger, fancier boat, its just too difficult in other aspects and is trending worse.

Or maybe when I retire in a few years ill buy the bigger boat and become a perpetual looper..lol.
 
The pronoun-eschewing Hippocampus

:)

And he eschews spaced paragraphs, too. Something to do with vision, eyeglasses, etc., but I usually can't read all the way through the swimming type of a Hippo Homily.

-Chris
 
Fixed docks do better in hurricanes than floating docks.

The central coast did not get hit by Helene per se - Helene was about 100 miles off the coast. But the size and velocity of the storm created a huge surge on its NW-SW quadrant. Not s lot wind, not a lot of rain. Just a giant water blister that floated several feet above land.

In this fairly unique instance, a floating dock would have been better (or a well secured boat lift - attached is my friends boat on the ICW in Redington Beach a couple hours ago). But had there been hurricane force winds, the wind waves tear apart floating docks.

Mother nature is a bitch sometimes.

Peter
 

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In this fairly unique instance, a floating dock would have been better . . . But had there been hurricane force winds, the wind waves tear apart floating docks

Peter
All else being equal, that's true. Floating docks require some protection from wind-driven swells. We saw the evidence in Ft. Myers, in the aftermath of Hurricane Ian.
 
The big thing it makes me wonder about is why aren't marinas there built better? Floating docks, taller pilings to handle surge, good protection from sea state, etc.

The same question will be asked here in the PNW when the Cascadia Subduction Zone gives way. The resulting Tsunami will likely change water levels by > +/- 10ft. If that happens at a high tide, the floating docks at my marina will be lifted off their pilings, destroying/severely damaging most of the boats in Gig Harbor. I figure that I need to toss lines no later than 2 hours after the quake if I am going to scoot South through the Narrows to ride it out.

So why don't we all rebuild our marinas with taller pilings to avoid that? Cost, economic disruption, and environmental impacts.
 
Agreed. In my mind, there's no reason not to install extra-tall pilings when building a marina with floating docks though. A large portion of the cost is in physically installing the pilings and the cost of good, sturdy docks. The incremental cost of making the pilings a few feet taller can't be that high.
If they are not tall now, an concrete, you can add to them.

That's what Myrtle Beach Yacht Club did to theirs after one hurricane floated a few fingers off and nearly all. When I was there for Dorian Summer of 2019, none of the docks came close that time. They didn't even do all (if I recall correctly) the pilings, but enough to keep the docks from coming apart.
 
This boils down to who keeps their life simple enough to manage it....or expect to pay through the nose.

If you have a home, business and boat that all fall into the major damage category if a hurricane hits.... well what should you expect? Even if you are a good insurance customer.... insurance is gonna cost you a lot if you are in that position the first time, let alone multiple times.

It is just like paying high costs to have others do everything from routine preventative maintenance to expensive repairs and alterations to any of the three assets if you are to busy to do it yourself.

I know that sounds pretty anti-American to not want the dream, but there always is a bottom line that seems to be escaping so many.

Like the lady who has lost her business 3 times in the last few years and has had her home severely damaged on some barrier island near Tampa. She doesn't know if she can afford it but she is considering rebuilding all over again.

Isn't the old expression “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.” a valid one?
 

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