115 Volt Windlass

[kiwi Brent]

Hi Have just purchased a CHB 40 Gen set is no go and am soon to pull and rebuild.Currently the windlass is powered by 12 volt but what looks like original cables are very small . tracing the cable to windlass (one black one white)appear to originate from the 110 part of the main switch board.
Typically the wiring over the years has been messed with.
My real question is do some windlass run on 115 volts.

 

[STB]

What type of windlass do you have?

I'm almost certain I've seen 120VAC windlasses from Ideal, which is a venerable, quality, and not uncommon (in older boats) name brand.

I think I've also heard reports of others for much bigger boats that may even be 3-phase AC.

I can also imagine someone wiring up something industrial (gulp).

So, I guess what I'm suggesting is that your boat /could/ /possibly/ have, or have had, or have in the future, a 120VAC windlass.

But, if it is running now, and you are measuring 12V at the windlass...it would seem to be a 12V windlass. Maybe it got traced back to the wrong breaker.

But, you are right....12V wiring normally needs to carry 10x as much current for the same work...so much thicker wiring is in order.

 

[Comodave]

Do the cables have power at the windlass end? I would put a meter on them and see if they do. If they are in fact 12 volt then you can do a rough measure of the distance to and from the electrical panel and see if they are up to the current draw, if you can identify the windlass and check it’s power consumption. But first thing you need to find out is whether there is power on the wires or not and if so what voltage.

 

[Mako]

kiwi, so you have a 115V system with a boat in NZ? In any case, higher voltage motors are preferred for large loads. They are commonly had in 230v single phase and then 400V three phase, or in 120/240V in America. But for your boat of 40ft I can't see any great advantage.



Now if your 12V motor is burnt out, then sure, you can source a 115VAC motor and hook it up. Run through your inverter. Would be a fun project if nothing else.


But assuming it still works fine then just use it. But check those old cables. There may be internal corrosion (if not tinned) and the diameter sounds like it could be too small. Better to upsize one size large than required even.

 

[tiltrider1]

120v windlass were very common in the 70’s. Most were replaced in the 80’s with 12v. 120v motors last a lot longer than 12v motors.

 

[Mako]

At the commercial shipyards I've been speaking with, you can choose any motor voltage/hydraulic that you wish. The windlasses, winches and captive reels are rather industrial and are sourced separately from the motor. I've been told by them that 12/24VDC motors are much more expensive than a "standard" 230v 50hz motor.

Same is probably true with American voltage motors I would assume. Has anyone purchased lately a 2000w DC motor, for example pricing?

 

[Daveo]

While shopping for a boat I looked at a couple of KK42s that had original equipment 110volt windlasses. So yes, they are out there.

 

[Ski in NC]

For smaller boats, it is nice to be able to pull the anchor without having to depend on a generator.

Also, induction motors (most AC motors) can have pretty weak start up torque.

A 2000w DC motor is not rare. Most diesel starter motors are 2-6kW.

 

[Mako]

I’m not sure that adapting a starter motor to a windlass would be recommended because a windlass will run longer than the typical 30 second duty cycle. However I recall reading an article by Brent Swain about adapting a starter motor as an autopilot drive. That seems like it could work.

 

[Lepke]

I run my winch on 240v ac. It was dc before my time. The ac motor is much cheaper than a 12v and can be repaired/rebuilt in any large city. Replacement motors are also online. I usually run the winch with an inverter.

Since upgrading to a larger inverter, I use a generator about 90% less.

 

[psneeld]

I’m not sure that adapting a starter motor to a windlass would be recommended because a windlass will run longer than the typical 30 second duty cycle. However I recall reading an article by Brent Swain about adapting a starter motor as an autopilot drive. That seems like it could work.

And yet though the years, some, maybe many HAVE been starter motors as the parts numbers have been the same, just dropping the gear from the end of the shaft.


I was going to try one for my old windlass, but I lost access to the shop tools and to have adapters made by a machine shop becomes uneconomical in some cases.

 

[FF]

"120v windlass were very common in the 70’s."

On some boats the house system was 120v , 10 12v car batts made up the hiuse bank.

YES! one could be shocked , but light bulbs were easy .

 

[Mako]

I run my winch on 240v ac. It was dc before my time. I usually run the winch with an inverter. Since upgrading to a larger inverter, I use a generator about 90% less.

How do you accommodate the locked rotor startup draw? Do you use a soft start capacitor, or perhaps the inverter is multiple times larger than the electric draw?

 

[Mako]

And yet though the years, some, maybe many HAVE been starter motors as the parts numbers have been the same, just dropping the gear from the end of the shaft.

I was going to try one for my old windlass, but I lost access to the shop tools and to have adapters made by a machine shop becomes uneconomical in some cases.

Interesting. Might be worth trying in the future. Starter motors are a dime a dozen practically, especially from car wreckers.

 

[Mako]

On some boats the house system was 120v , 10 12v car batts made up the hiuse bank.

There was another thread, either here or on CF, where this was discussed. I think it's a great idea for a larger boat. Everything VAC except for 12VDC bridge electronics.

On-grid inverters (with inputs of about 100VDC) run at about 98% efficiency.

One slight challenge is perhaps finding a way to charge the house bank from the engine alternator.

 

[Ted]

Mine has a belt (3) driven Davidson alternator putting out 80 amps @ 128 volts
into a bank of 9 deep cycle 12 volt batteries.

Need (want) to find an inverter to change to AC.

Ted

 

[diver dave]

I will guess that the hi amp DC circuit breaker issue killed off 120v dc systems. Total guess, but i will also suppose these older systems were all fused, not breakered.

 

[Ted]

The main line off the battery bank is fused but the individual circuits are on breakers.
They are physically large, both the positive and negative for each circuit run through
the breaker.

Ted

 

[diver dave]

Yeah. DC breakers big and expensive. Cool system though.

 

[kiwi Brent]

115 volt windlass

Thanks for all the help My windlass works but has no grunt it has 12 volt supply but I am almost certain it is meant to be 115v and has been changed when gen set went bad. Original cables are to small for 12V
Boat came from Japan ten years ago to New Zealand hence 115 gen set not 240 v single phase as used domestically in NZ
Thank for all your help Guys.
Ps there are no external marking or name plate on windlass but looks original to vessel.

 

[FF]

There are different style builds on AC motors.

Some are built to start against a heavy load like a large air compressor,most are not.

Its been decades , but the words "reactive induction" or something similar come to mind when thinking of better heavy duty AC motors.

 

[Mako]

kiwi, try an experiment. Find some deep water and then unspool all your chain to the end. Then reel it all in and go around and carefully feel how hot the wires and connectors are getting. Warm is normal, but super hot would be a bad sign, especially when you say it has "no grunt."

 

[ben2go]

Please forgive my highjacking.

I’m not sure that adapting a starter motor to a windlass would be recommended because a windlass will run longer than the typical 30 second duty cycle. However I recall reading an article by Brent Swain about adapting a starter motor as an autopilot drive. That seems like it could work.

Do you have that article or can you point me to it? That seems an interesting read.

 

[Mako]

That was years ago so I don't remember where. However he is still around and quite active. Just Google his name or Origami boats. Contact him directly as he's very helpful to those who are respectful and aren't trying to argue with his philosophy.

 

[ben2go]

That was years ago so I don't remember where. However he is still around and quite active. Just Google his name or Origami boats. Contact him directly as he's very helpful to those who are respectful and aren't trying to argue with his philosophy.

Thank you.

 

[MOJO]

I have a 110v motor powering the windlass on MOJO. It was originally a 1/2 hp 12v DC motor which I had rebuilt twice and replaced once ($800!). Didn't really have enough power to lift my 110 lb anchor with 50' of 1/2" chain. When the replacement motor failed swapped it out for a 3/4 hp 110v motor. That's been maybe 5 years ago and it has worked perfectly every since (with a lot more power)! I wired it with a solid state relay that picks with 12v so that the hand held controller on deck only has 12 v. - was not comfortable holding 110v in my hands in the rain on a steel deck! I subsequently added a wireless battery operated remote control which is great. New, the 110v 3/4 hp motor cost less than $300 and was a bolt for bolt replacement. The solid state relay was $25 and the remote control system was under $10 from Amazon - designed for 12v automotive windlasses. Sure wish I had converted to 110v 18 years ago!

 

[Lepke]

How do you accommodate the locked rotor startup draw? Do you use a soft start capacitor, or perhaps the inverter is multiple times larger than the electric draw?

The inverter capacity is 4x larger than the motor draw. PO always ran a generator, but I've been reducing the need to run a generator 24/7.

 

[Shaunc]

My boat came with a 115v Ideal windlass and was recently rebuilt by them. Not the best experience. They sent it with a12v motor instead and we had to uninstall it again 150lb a time and then wait for the 115v motor to arrive and reinstall it. it turned so slowly. They recommended we take it out a gain and check they gears. We did and it did not help. Not sure if the 12v motor would have had more torque but the 115v is painfully slow to pull up the anchor.The eventually credited me back for the rebuild but I am trying to figure out a windlass that will work. I may have to rip it all out and start all over again. The problem I have is that none of the modern windless will fit my situation.

 

[Lepke]

The 110v motor is probably designed for a different gear ratio. AC motors run at a designed speed and DC motors will run at a speed based on voltage. A 12v motor running on 14.5 charging voltage would run faster than it's rated rpm.

Since your 12v and 110v motors sound like they have the same mounting, take your 12v motor to someone like Grainger along with the info on the 110v motor plate. They should be able to advise and if necessary give you a more powerful/faster motor that fits.
Grainger stocks hundreds of motors in their local stores and has warehouses that have more. Not the cheapest, but know their business. Many manufacturers use Grainger motors, bearings, and other parts in their products to avoid having big parts inventories.

 

[Shaunc]

Thank you. That is some awesome information. I will definitely try that.