2715E lehman 120 lift pump

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hallp

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2017
Messages
24
Location
Australia
Vessel Name
Joshua
Vessel Make
Blue Seas Trawler 36ft
I was changing out the lift pump on my engine with a spare that was on the boat when purchased.
The pump I removed has a different lever to the spare, and I am having trouble making the spare fit.
The pump on the right is the original and the pump on the left is the spare.
Is there a reason the new pump won't fit. 20230716_072441.jpg
 
Greetings,
Mr. h. Sometimes one has to push against the spring lever whilst the pump is in position to get the nuts started. Put pump in position (in line with the studs) and press hard to push pump body towards block. Or...it's the wrong pump.


Try bumping the engine over a tad. Could be the lever is resting on the high point of the cam.
 
I suppose anything is possible but it sure looks wrong to me. Unless the original shows a TON of wear, which is doubtful

pete
 
I agree about bumping the engine IF the levers were the same.
They look like different pump levers.
Call Brian and show him the photos.
Also have at hand YOUR engine specific model and serial numbers.
 
The pump on the right in that photo is original? To my eye, the one on the left is correct for Lehman 2715E.

To my eye the one on the right almost looks like it came from a Perkins 4.236, but not quite.

It is certainly possible that the cam levers on the two pumps, though shaped differently, both engage the motor well. I know it is crazy for me to suggest that the pump you've identified as working is the one I wouldn't expect to work.

At any rate, if you are sure that you've got a Lehman 2715E and that the photo is oriented as you described, you might try sanity checking the she shape of the flange and distance between the screws, etc. And, if they line up, and it doesn't work, you might try rotating the engine a bit, even if just by bumping the starter. It sometimes helps.

At any rate, can you double check the left-right thing on your picture? Just in case it got mirror flipped somehow. And, maybe, post a picture of the engine's model number or serial number.

Thanks and good luck!
 
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So I feel a bit foolish now. I rotated the engine, and it went in without any issues.
The engine is dying when I apply too much throttle. It is ok up to 2000rpm.
I have checked all filters, hoses, etc. I am now trying a replacement lift pump.
Is it possible that I wasn't getting a full stroke on the pump with that lever arm.
I will see if this changes anything.
Thank you, everyone, for your comments and feedback
Cheers
Phil
 
Hey Phil,

I'm a little bit confused about the sequence of events and which pump is which.

1) What prompted the removal of the "original" pump?
2) Was the "original" pump the pump in the photo with the longer or shorter lever? Or a different pump?
3) Which pump was installed after rotating the engine? The "original" shown in the photo, the "other" shown in the photo? Or a different pump?
4) The engine is applying with too much throttle after the replacement? Is this new? Or did it do this before?
5) Which "replacement" lift pump are you now trying? The one with the loner lever in the photo, the one with the shorter lever in the photo, or a totally different one? If a different one, what does it look like?
6) Is that 2000rpm under load or in neutral?
7) How does the engine sound as it approaches this stall speed?

The behavior you are describing does sound like the system being starved of fuel. And, if this is new since you've exchanged pumps, it may well be related.

If this was the original problem, it could be a lot of things. A few things that you could try:

1) If you've recently serviced other parts of the system triple check them. Sometimes gaskets land in the wrong place and can obstruct fuel paths, etc.

2) Supply fuel from a hose to a bucket to eliminate any problem with primary filter and the hoses to that point (2nd ary filter will still be in loop). Hoses can delaminate and filters can become clogged or obstructed, etc.

3) Supply fuel using an electric lift pump to push through the mechanical pump to see if that is a problem
 
Hi STB,
It is a bit of long story but in short. I have owned the boat for a few years and have been refitting on a hardstand, I put the boat in last summer to carry out some sea trials, so I haven't had much experience with running the engines.
When I was out, I took both engines to wide open throttle and the Port engine faded and stopped.
I initially though I had air getting in into the system, so I replaced all hoses and checked all fittings. I had also replaced all filters, cleaned the fuel tanks and was confident there was no blockage anywhere. This didn't solve the issue. I still figured it was fuel starvation. I hauled the boat out a couple of months ago and was going over everything once more. I have replaced the filters and as I had a spare lift pump figured I would replace that prior to relaunch.
The pump with the shorter leaver arm is the pump I removed from the engine and the pump with the longer arm is the replacement.
I am looking to relaunch in a few weeks so if you have any suggestions on what else to look at it would be very much appreciated.
Cheers Phil
 
Okay. For whatever it is worth, I think the lifter pump you just put in is the correct one for the engine. I'm surprised the short stubby one worked, but I don't know the internal geometry.

Just to check the obvious....have you checked your fuel supply and return valves? Are they set correctly? Are they operating correctly?

So, if I understand correctly, the boat is presently on the hard, this issue is occuring while testing on the hard, and it continued to occur after the replacement of the lift pump?

Does the engine start right back up after it occurs?

While running at lower RPMs, what does the smoke look like?

What do you mean when you write that it "fades" as it approaches 2000 rpm? RPM instability like surging? Very little RPM change for throttle increase? Can you describe what you are observing in as much detail as possible.

Assuming it runs indefinitely while at lower RPMs, suffers increasing RPM instability as it approaches 2000rpm, and then stalls out at 2000rpm, this is almost certainly a fuel system issue.

My first suspect is fuel starvation originating in the low pressure part of the fuel system. What you are describing is usually the flow rate of the fuel from the low pressure system being insufficient to fully supply the injector pump when it needs to supply more fuel quickly for higher throttle settings. This usually shows itself as the engine doing just fine until a throttle setting where the demand of the high pressure injector pump starts to equal the supply by the low pressure system. At that point it doesn't always get what it needs. The governor calls for more fuel, and now sometimes it matters very little because the fuel isn't there and sometimes it gets a good gup and the engine and RPMs surge. So, we've gone from a smooth running engine to surging with relatively little change in throttle. Then we just stall out. It surges forward then doesn't get enough fuel to keep going.

If this isn't it, I then start to suspect the high pressure part of the fuel system: The injectors and the injector pump. This type of problem is often accompanied slicking of the water with fuel (you may not see that on the hard) by a smoking issue, in particular copious white diesel smoke or even an, even at low throttle settings. In particular, if there isn't a smoke problem, I doubt there is a problem on the high pressure side. And, even if there is a smoke problem, it could still be the low pressure side -- not enough fuel hurts the spray pattern leaving drop of fuel not a mist.

The injectors usually run better at high throttle settings than low throttle settings. So, if it is running smoothly at low throttle settings and only gets worse with high throttle, injectors are not usually my 1st thought. Also, there are 6 of them, so it is unlikely all 6 are critically bad. So, the engine usually runs rough due to the unevenness.

One thing one can do is, with the engine at a fast idle, is to open (loosen a lot) the supply (not return) line to each fuel injector one at a time. This will make a mess. Fuel will spill so have a rag ready. What you should hear is the engine run notable worse. Then tighten it up. If one injector makes a lot less of a difference than the others, or no difference at all, it is probably bad. You can also just pull all of the injectors and have them tested at an injector shop. They'll usually "pop test" them and check their spray pattern visually for free. Injectors aren't my first guess, even on the high pressure side, but they are easy to test, so, I'd sure open and close each line and see what happens. Why not? It takes 15 minutes start to finish.

It could also be the injector pump, but that is expensive to rebuild. And, I'd hate to do it unless it really needed it. The best I know to do is to rule it in by rulin everything else out. If, for example, an injector seems bad, I swap it with another injector. If the problem follows the injector, it is the injector. If it stays with the cylinder, it might well be the pump. Depending upon how the pump fails, it could impact one injector or all of them. But, pumps failing to the point of stalling at modest RPM settings are somewhat rarer than low-pressure fuel system problems doing the same. In general, pumps will misbehave with things smoking badly and/or running rough before they get there. By contrast, obstructions on the low pressure side, or a failure in the low pressure pump, can develop quickly.

You can disconnect the hose from the lift pump and attach an electric transfer or lifter pump and long hose to it and try pumping fuel out of the tank, through the primary filter and all the hoses to this point....and back into the tank via the fill. If you get a good flow, things are probably good. If you see lines collapsing or don't get a good flow, there is probably a problem to this point.

You can then reconnect the hose at the pump and disconnect the other end of it. Put it into a 5 gallon bucket filled ~80% with fuel. See how the engine runs from the bucket or portable tank. This is another way to check for a problem from the tank to this point.

You can also use the lifter pump in-line with the mechanical pump, so that if the mechanical pump isn't doing its job, the electric pump pushes through it and gets the
injector pump the fuel and see what happens.

If it isn't from the fuel tank to the engine block, and isn't the injectors, and doesn't seem like the injector pump....it could be the 2ndary on-engine fuel filter. Pull it off and check around the housing. Make sure it is all clear. Replace it.

The Lehman normally uses, I think, hard lines for the fuel filters. Disconnect them and check them for obstructions. Look for any broken gasket bits, etc, in the lines.

If it really doesn't seem like hoses, either fuel filter, any of the hard or soft fuel lines, or the injector pump, there is a small chance it is a return path obstruction. The most likely culprit here is a closed or mis-set fuel return valve. The next most likely culprit is a bad one-way (non-return) valve going to or at the tank.

Get ready for a mess. Disconnect the return line to the tank from the end of the return lineset. Try blowing through it. Then, try to get a hose around or attached to where the hose should be on the engine and direct it to a bucket. See if the engine runs better returning to the bucket than through the line.

Finally, pull the injector pump and all of the injectors and take them to a shop.

Basically, check filters and hard lines installation (easy). Check injectors (easy). Check fuel flow to injector pump (temp source and hose). Check lifter pump (push through with electric). Check return resistance. Pull injector and take to shop.

I'm not there to see what is going on or to look over things. So, this might not be worth much. But, it is the best I've got sitting here. Let us know what you learn and we can all put our heads together.
 
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IMG_1637.jpgIMG_1638.jpgIMG_1639.jpg

I believe that you have installed the correct part now.
 
View attachment 140748View attachment 140749View attachment 140750

I believe that you have installed the correct part now.

What is the injector pump at the back of Attachment 140750 for? It looks like the one he took out which, as I expressed, surprised me a lot.

I agree it looks different than I'm used to seeing for Lehman pumps. But it was in there and seemingly working for him...and oddly enough seems to be in your picture. I'm guessing no coincidence.
 
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Wasn’t there a thread a little while ago where someone had a lift pump that the long arm came off somehow? It left the little stubby arm very similar to this one.
 
There was...and it had one of the pictures posted to this thread posted to it...

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s6/120-lehman-lift-pump-failure-67851.html

But, I don't believe the pictures in either thread show a broken off pump. The pictures innthat thread were not from the OP who suffered the broken pump.

The original pump shown here doesn't look broken. The outer part of the arm doesn't look like it could ever have been there. The stub has what looks like rivets tight and intact. The stub isn't brokennor damaged in any way, etc.

In the original thread, there was no post of the broken pump.

But there was a post of a picture showing two pumps looking a lot like the OP's two pumps posted here. That same picture was posted here. I don't think either pump in it is broken, either.

I don't think we know what a broken pump looks like, but I don't think it is the short stubby pump. And I also don't think we know what a damaged pump looks like -- but I'll bet damaged. It is probably worth the OP looking at the stubby pump for damage and sending in an oil sample to look for metals, but it being broken just seems unlikely to me if the stubby pump looks fine.

I'm still curious what the stubby pump is, but since the engine has done the same thing with two pumps? I'll bet it is a red herring.

There was some mention of spacers in the other thread. I dont know enough about the Lehman to know if there are shims thst would somehow matter. Never hear of adjusting a Lehman's pump with shims. Never seen shims. But that doesn't mean it ain't so. Looking for a workshop manual now...
 
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I just looked in the service manual and operator/parts manual. I don't see any references to spacers or shims and the lift pump installation seems to be "install it" without any reference to checking or adjusting shims or spacers. Of course, I coukd have missed something.
 
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Eliminate all these vagaries and install an electric pump. Cap off the port for the mechanical pump with a block off plate. A plate for a big block Chevy V8 is a perfect fit. A Walbro FRB-13 works a charm, rated for 18,000 hours.
 
Eliminate all these vagaries and install an electric pump. Cap off the port for the mechanical pump with a block off plate. A plate for a big block Chevy V8 is a perfect fit. A Walbro FRB-13 works a charm, rated for 18,000 hours.

With the pump having just been replaced and the behavior unchanged, whikenutnis certainly possible that the problem is the pump (been there, done that), thus seems less likely to me at this time.

Repacing the brand new lifter pump with electric wouldn't be my first move, other than as an aid to testing and isolating the problem.

Just my thinking.
 
With the pump having just been replaced and the behavior unchanged, whikenutnis certainly possible that the problem is the pump (been there, done that), thus seems less likely to me at this time.

Repacing the brand new lifter pump with electric wouldn't be my first move, other than as an aid to testing and isolating the problem.

Just my thinking.



I posted the picture of the two pumps. Neither is broken but have different actuation arms. I bought the short arm pump as a replacement but when I went to fit it found that it was the wrong type. The correct one (for my engine) is the long arm unit. The part numbers shown are the part numbers that correspond to the long arm pump from various suppliers, Fordson, Ford, Lee’s etc. I thought that they would be helpful to others in locating a replacement. The short arm pump definitely won’t work with my engine but I kept it just for the diaphragm and valves. The long arm unit is easy to find down here from most diesel and farm equipment suppliers. A note on shims - my engine has a thin metal plate fitted between the block and the pump and is open at the bottom edge leaving an air gap between the crankcase and the pump. I believe it is not to act as a shim but as a shield to deflect diesel from entering the sump in case of a diaphragm failure. The easiest path being between the block and the pump, in much the same way a water pump has a path to indicate a seal failure. It would not prevent it from happening but it would be pretty obvious if there was a problem. Do they do something similar with the Lehman ?
 
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